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Yeah cause Kirby LOVED to sign right on covers....
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97 posts in this topic

20 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

I also wonder under what conditions the DF signing occurred (like did they use some sort of inhouse window-pane-ing for where Jack could sign?) so maybe he didnt have an option of where to sign? 

Having followed DF for more than 15 years, I believe it's safe to say they did the absolute minimum amount of work possible, so if they didn't witness a single signature but were told "Jack signed 'em" then that was probably good enough.

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1 hour ago, miraclemet said:

I also wonder under what conditions the DF signing occurred (like did they use some sort of inhouse window-pane-ing for where Jack could sign?) so maybe he didnt have an option of where to sign? 

What I've heard over and over, from fairly reliable sources, is that the books were dropped off at Jack and Roz' Kirby Kompound, their home, to be picked up once Jack had completed signing them all. Like Kaz, what I've heard from reliable sources is that 2500 signatures would pose an insurmountable challenge for Jack alone to complete within the given timeframe between drop off and pick up during that time in his life.. 

Edited by James J Johnson
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3 hours ago, miraclemet said:

I also wonder under what conditions the DF signing occurred (like did they use some sort of inhouse window-pane-ing for where Jack could sign?) so maybe he didnt have an option of where to sign? 

So what is the definitive thing (if any) to make sure that Kirby sigs are authentic?

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1 hour ago, bobotski said:

So what is the definitive thing (if any) to make sure that Kirby sigs are authentic?

With the way Kirby's signature changed over his lifetime, plus with the way his wife did so much ghost-signing, plus with all the recent forgeries, honestly the best way to make sure would be to post your example in the Signature Forum here on the CGC boards and ask for opinions. 

Most sig verification like PSA or JSA are probably useless with Kirby, but I think one of CGC's competitors does a good job of verifying Kirby sigs. 

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17 minutes ago, eee91 said:

A few years ago, a couple of his signed checks were up on eBay. He signed his checks like he signed comics in the early-to-mid 80's - his big bold sig with the pronounced slant. 

 

Yes. That was at least the norm for his signing checks at that time. I'm not sure about other eras though although based on those, what you and I both saw, it's reasonable to believe that his check signatures would likely echo his comic splash page signatures relevant to the time of writing. 

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12 minutes ago, eee91 said:

With the way Kirby's signature changed over his lifetime, plus with the way his wife did so much ghost-signing, plus with all the recent forgeries, honestly the best way to make sure would be to post your example in the Signature Forum here on the CGC boards and ask for opinions. 

Most sig verification like PSA or JSA are probably useless with Kirby, but I think one of CGC's competitors does a good job of verifying Kirby sigs. 

Yes and Yes!!! Both points are extremely valid observations and sound advice. 

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7 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

Not forged as much as secretarial (Roz). Back in the day a Kirby signature was valued and prized, but nowhere near the vicinity of monetary value as today, and why so many forgeries abound on ebay. Back in the 70s-90s, comic forgeries were almost non-existent. There was no reason to; no dollar incentive. The forgers concentrated on Sports autos and other areas; where the money was.. The market for comic creator signatures skyrocketed after CGC introduced the signature series, much like the market upswing for comics soon after CGC's emergence. 

Secretarial signatures are fine for some things, but those DF books were expensive. Jack ripped off both the company who paid him to sign the books and his fans, who he knew were paying top dollar for it. All while living in a million dollar house, so money wasn't an issue. I believe it's a felony these days in California to do what the Kirbys did. Crime or not, he and his wife ripped off his fans.

DF supposedly dropped off 2,000 books and picked them up 7 days later. 

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2 hours ago, bobotski said:

So what is the definitive thing (if any) to make sure that Kirby sigs are authentic?

There isn't. Ted Williams produced the last .400 batting average season, 79 years ago, because although he might be able to explain "how to bat .400" to someone, only Ted was able to see the ball's flight path and react to it like he could. Autograph authentication used to be the domain of specialists. Someone who knew 1, or 2, or 3, or usually, at the very most, and miraculous in itslef, up to maybe 10 signatures as well as their own. As if they wrote it tens of thousands of times. A specialist's intimacy with a signature he's expert in transcends the small details. A specialist doesn't need an exemplar for comparative authentication. They can glance at one of their areas of specialty and by vibe alone know if it's proper, as if it were their own signature! With PSA, JSA, etc., autograph authentication moved in a different direction. One guy authenticates thousands of signatures using exemplars. "Does this e look like this e, and qre these two letters the same size as these"? That's not the way to authenticate. A specialist immediately can identify fakes from the real thing, due to intensive study and a level of intimacy with the track based on years of study and observation. You don't get that with the jack of al trades exemplar comparison authenticator companies. You get mistakes. And loads of them. 

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30 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

There isn't. Ted Williams produced the last .400 batting average season, 79 years ago, because although he might be able to explain "how to bat .400" to someone, only Ted was able to see the ball's flight path and react to it like he could.

I heard a first-hand story from a man who got a chance to sit and talk with Ted Williams about hitting for a few hours. Ted explained that (what is now called) "sign stealing" was common.  He knew what pitches were being called when he was at the plate, as have many other players through the decades, and he was still the only one to hit .400.

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34 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Secretarial signatures are fine for some things, but those DF books were expensive. Jack ripped off both the company who paid him to sign the books and his fans, who he knew were paying top dollar for it. All while living in a million dollar house, so money wasn't an issue. I believe it's a felony these days in California to do what the Kirbys did. Crime or not, he and his wife ripped off his fans.

DF supposedly dropped off 2,000 books and picked them up 7 days later. 

What was the retail price for those DF Kirby pieces back then? 

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Just now, valiantman said:

I heard a first-hand story from a man who got a chance to sit and talk with Ted Williams about hitting for a few hours. Ted explained that (what is now called) "sign stealing" was common.  He knew what pitches were being called when he was at the plate, as have many other players through the decades, and he was still the only one to hit .400.

The game was so different. Just in random order:

1) Sports medicine and adjunct training and rehab were basically non existent. Back in Ruth's and DiMaggio's days they'd treat injuries with a Raytheon Diathermy Machine, which basically was a 40 watt light bulb behind what looked like drop lamp with a drum skin over it!! 

2) Travel. Untold hours to go from here to there by bus and train

3) Hard drinking, horrible nutrition, bad sleeping habits 

4) Huge fields compared to today. 490 feet to straightaway center, 50 foot wall at the :Polo Grounds. Original cf fence, 491 feet at Yankee stadium.

5) Very little in the way of relief pitching. Starters usually finished, gas in their tank or not.

6) 18" pitching mound

7) No warnings for throwing at batter's heads!

8) No warnings for sliding into bases, feet kicking, file-sharpened spikes.

I can keep going but these ballplayers faced adverse conditions. None were pampered. 

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18 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I heard a first-hand story from a man who got a chance to sit and talk with Ted Williams about hitting for a few hours. Ted explained that (what is now called) "sign stealing" was common.  He knew what pitches were being called when he was at the plate, as have many other players through the decades, and he was still the only one to hit .400.

You know who Ted though was the greatest hitter of all time?   

 

The Babe. 

 

Keep in mind that Ruth used to out-homer entire teams for the season! While usually batting in the .350 to .360s (.344 lifetime). No gear. No steroids. 714 homeruns, with 4000 less at bats than Hank Aaron. Fueled by a diet that would have killed most men, pickled eels, hotdogs, washed down with Old Overhaul! 

When Wiliiams was in a bating slump, which I guess for Ted was .300 or so, he used to send for Ruth to sit behind home run plate and watch, and critique. There's alot of photos of Ted in uniform with Babe in street clothes, having a pow wow behind the fence around the home plate area, Ruth holding a bat to demonstrate something he saw Ted doing. 

Edited by James J Johnson
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51 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

You know who Ted though was the greatest hitter of all time?   

 

The Babe. 

 

Keep in mind that Ruth used to out-homer entire teams for the season! While usually batting in the .350 to .360s (.344 lifetime). No gear. No steroids. 714 homeruns, with 4000 less at bats than Hank Aaron. Fueled by a diet that would have killed most men, pickled eels, hotdogs, washed down with Old Overhaul! 

Pre-integration, against guys who had full time regular jobs in the off-season. Pass. 

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1 hour ago, James J Johnson said:

There isn't. Ted Williams produced the last .400 batting average season, 79 years ago, because although he might be able to explain "how to bat .400" to someone, only Ted was able to see the ball's flight path and react to it like he could. Autograph authentication used to be the domain of specialists. Someone who knew 1, or 2, or 3, or usually, at the very most, and miraculous in itslef, up to maybe 10 signatures as well as their own. As if they wrote it tens of thousands of times. A specialist's intimacy with a signature he's expert in transcends the small details. A specialist doesn't need an exemplar for comparative authentication. They can glance at one of their areas of specialty and by vibe alone know if it's proper, as if it were their own signature! With PSA, JSA, etc., autograph authentication moved in a different direction. One guy authenticates thousands of signatures using exemplars. "Does this e look like this e, and qre these two letters the same size as these"? That's not the way to authenticate. A specialist immediately can identify fakes from the real thing, due to intensive study and a level of intimacy with the track based on years of study and observation. You don't get that with the jack of al trades exemplar comparison authenticator companies. You get mistakes. And loads of them. 

I always wince when I watch that PSA guy authenticate sigs on pawn stars by pulling up one or 2 exemplars and saying yeah this looks like his D this looks like his a etc.

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2 hours ago, James J Johnson said:

What was the retail price for those DF Kirby pieces back then? 

I don't recall, but I know they were expensive enough to keep me from buying any.

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