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Do prices ever go down?
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60 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, Hockeyflow33 said:

It's one of those pages I've been meaning to buy for a long time and I actually would have just paid what he was asking when I sent the message but out of principle I won't anymore

Just a suggestion: who's really losing here?

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Good God, y’all are scaring me. Sounds like the sellers have most of the power.  If I ever clash swords with sellers without integrity, they are dead to me. It doesn’t matter what they have in the future.  Likewise when I find a good seller I try to let people know.

Sounds like it might be a good idea to have a long enough/diverse enough want list such that you can always find reasonably priced items.  

 

 

Edited by Westy Steve
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52 minutes ago, Westy Steve said:

Sounds like the sellers have most of the power.

Only if you cede it to them.

52 minutes ago, Westy Steve said:

If I ever clash swords with sellers without integrity, they are dead to me. It doesn’t matter what they have in the future.

Cool. I'm with you.

53 minutes ago, Westy Steve said:

Sounds like it might be a good idea to have a long enough/diverse enough want list such that you can always find reasonably priced items.  

No worries, there is always more art out there. There's no end to the art.

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4 hours ago, vodou said:

Just a suggestion: who's really losing here?

Vodou I know where you’re going with this. You’re not wrong. I recommend not biting your nose to spite your face also. A dealer back in 1998 wanted $140 for a page. My friend offered him $125 and the dealer wouldn’t budge. Overnight my friend regretted not buying and next day offered full price. Already sold to another.

Six years later I found the page again and negotiated a deal for my friend. It cost $550 now. A few bucks more for something you really want is always worth it. 
 

 

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9 hours ago, grapeape said:

 I recommend not biting your nose to spite your face also. A dealer back in 1998 wanted $140 for a page. My friend offered him $125 and the dealer wouldn’t budge. Overnight my friend regretted not buying and next day offered full price. Already sold to another.

Six years later I found the page again and negotiated a deal for my friend. It cost $550 now. A few bucks more for something you really want is always worth it. 
 

 

I learned this lesson as well and carry that lesson with me every day. You have to look at the piece and think about it in terms of "how would I feel if I don't bring this page home" ... if you can't stomach the thought, be willing to pay a few more bucks. If the idea doesn't bother you walk away and find another page down the road. 

 

I love to watch the show American Pickers and you can learn a lot about negotiating from the show. When Mike is trying to buy the piece and has to pay a few bucks more to get the deal done he sometimes says "What's a few bucks between friends" and sticks his hand out and shakes on the deal. Even though he may have paid up a little more than he wanted, he got the deal done and laid the groundwork for the next deal. 

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1 hour ago, JadeGiant said:

I love to watch the show American Pickers and you can learn a lot about negotiating from the show. When Mike is trying to buy the piece and has to pay a few bucks more to get the deal done he sometimes says "What's a few bucks between friends" and sticks his hand out and shakes on the deal. Even though he may have paid up a little more than he wanted, he got the deal done and laid the groundwork for the next deal. 

I'm not sure I'd take negotiating tips from "reality" TV, considering most of them are not as "real" as depicted.  And especially since almost all of what they buy is with the intention to re-sell.  But if your takeaway is "What's a few bucks between friends", I'm OK with that.

A long time ago, I was at one of those antique liquidation "auctions" at a hotel ball room.  My takeaway was something like "You'll never weave a silk rug but you can always make more money".  That maxim has its limits but sometimes it's a reminder of when you need to go "all in".

I had a chance to buy the art to a story at the 1995 Comic-Con.  I walked away and went back about 3 minutes later and was told it sold.  Even then, I'm not really sure if I believed him.  However after the con, I went a little nuts and bought all the other related art he had. 

And still later, that dealer quoted a price of X (which was a lot), to maybe get the art I missed.  It took almost 20 years for me to get that art.  The price did not go down, but I ended up getting it for less than X.  So overall, it was a happy ending.

 

 

Edited by Will_K
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1 hour ago, JadeGiant said:

I learned this lesson as well and carry that lesson with me every day. You have to look at the piece and think about it in terms of "how would I feel if I don't bring this page home" ... if you can't stomach the thought, be willing to pay a few more bucks. If the idea doesn't bother you walk away and find another page down the road. 

 

I love to watch the show American Pickers and you can learn a lot about negotiating from the show. When Mike is trying to buy the piece and has to pay a few bucks more to get the deal done he sometimes says "What's a few bucks between friends" and sticks his hand out and shakes on the deal. Even though he may have paid up a little more than he wanted, he got the deal done and laid the groundwork for the next deal. 

Yes kindness goes a long way. In my friends situation the seller was “abrupt” in turning down a $15 cut. This angered my friend. So that annoyed me too. I told my friend “don’t buy it then.”

My goal is to always walk away peacefully if I can’t get a deal done. I personally spent six months last year getting to know a collector who has a piece I’ve been trying to get for 17 years. Finally I gently presented my interest and the collector shot me down. He was abrupt, forceful even. No! Not going to sell.

We had been exchanging compliments over our two collections to that point. I was taken back by the “tone” of his response. But I’ve learned not to burn bridges. I thanked him and complimented a different piece of art he had.

Maybe one day he will change his mind. If not I respect that. No matter how much we might want something we’re not entitled to it. So if it’s available pay the sellers price if it will make you happy.  You May be sorry if you let something pass you really wanted. 
 

You make a key point about paying up and laying the groundwork for a future deal. There’s times where I’ve asked a seller/dealer “let me get you (buy at an agreeable discount) this time and I’ll pay full on the next one.” Then I keep my word and pay full price on the next page no barter no questions asked. Builds strong buyer seller relationships.

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16 hours ago, vodou said:

Just a suggestion: who's really losing here?

I’d think no one is losing here. 

As for the art itself, I’ll quote @Rick2you2: “Art is unique, but desire isn’t”.

The offerer walks away with the satisfaction of knowing he has avoided enabling the seller’s Richard-ish behaviour.

As for the seller, instead of having an item unsold at X, it remain unsold at X+Y (and maybe someone even buys it at some point). So he hasn’t lost anything either.

So really, it’s a win-win all around. 🥳

Edited by Skizz
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42 minutes ago, grapeape said:

Yes kindness goes a long way. In my friends situation the seller was “abrupt” in turning down a $15 cut. This angered my friend. So that annoyed me too. I told my friend “don’t buy it then.”

My goal is to always walk away peacefully if I can’t get a deal done. I personally spent six months last year getting to know a collector who has a piece I’ve been trying to get for 17 years. Finally I gently presented my interest and the collector shot me down. He was abrupt, forceful even. No! Not going to sell.

We had been exchanging compliments over our two collections to that point. I was taken back by the “tone” of his response. But I’ve learned not to burn bridges. I thanked him and complimented a different piece of art he had.

Maybe one day he will change his mind. If not I respect that. No matter how much we might want something we’re not entitled to it. So if it’s available pay the sellers price if it will make you happy.  You May be sorry if you let something pass you really wanted. 
 

You make a key point about paying up and laying the groundwork for a future deal. There’s times where I’ve asked a seller/dealer “let me get you (buy at an agreeable discount) this time and I’ll pay full on the next one.” Then I keep my word and pay full price on the next page no barter no questions asked. Builds strong buyer seller relationships.

Great points in bold. 

I also find that communication is key, and great communication is the best. I love to talk about the hobby and often strike up conversations that may or may not lead to a deal. In fact, very few of the conversations I start or engage in lead to a deal but that is fine with me as a good friend or contact made in the hobby is something I value. 

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8 hours ago, JadeGiant said:

I learned this lesson as well and carry that lesson with me every day. You have to look at the piece and think about it in terms of "how would I feel if I don't bring this page home" ... if you can't stomach the thought, be willing to pay a few more bucks. If the idea doesn't bother you walk away and find another page down the road. 

 

I love to watch the show American Pickers and you can learn a lot about negotiating from the show. When Mike is trying to buy the piece and has to pay a few bucks more to get the deal done he sometimes says "What's a few bucks between friends" and sticks his hand out and shakes on the deal. Even though he may have paid up a little more than he wanted, he got the deal done and laid the groundwork for the next deal. 

You do know that the show is fixed? Aside from items being "planted", I do not believe they could run a business paying 75% or more of list price, while driving around in that truck picking up a few pieces at each stop. I strongly suspect the agreed price is reached in advance.

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2 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

You do know that the show is fixed? Aside from items being "planted", I do not believe they could run a business paying 75% or more of list price, while driving around in that truck picking up a few pieces at each stop. I strongly suspect the agreed price is reached in advance.

I have read up and yes, I realize that there are some pre-arranged pieces. That said, there is a lot of real back and forth that happens genuinely. 

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I've been thinking about this topic and it seems to me that prices only really go down under the following situations:

1) The fan base "ages out." I seem to recall another thread in which Pogo strips were discussed. I don't know much about them but the consensus seemed to be that prices have dipped due to the people who remember Pogo having gotten older and in some cases dropped out of the hobby, while younger collectors don't seem to care. Unlike with a character like Spider-Man, where someone like me who grew up with Ross Andru would nevertheless love a Ditko page, the fact that Pogo didn't impact multiple generations has affected the value.

2) A large amount of art has flooded the market. Either a collector with a large collection is selling or the artist/their estate is selling a lot of their work. Those who want an example have a lot to choose from.

3) There was some external reason for a price jump and now there's a correction. Sometimes you see this with characters who are appearing in movies, and when the hype fades after the release there's a drop. Or the market was basically propped up by two collectors with the same interest who were very competitive, and one drops out for whatever reason. In these cases the prices don't usually go back to "bargain" territory, but there's a correction.

The only example I can think of recently (granted, I don't pay a ton of attention as I can't compete with the big guys) is Sal Buscema ROM pages. For a while they were cheap, then it seemed like every page that hit the market went for a lot, then Sal sold most of what he still had and the couple of guys who were driving the demand eased off. So while it's not as cheap as it was, it's more reasonable now. (Not so Ditko pages.) I've also heard that Barry Smith Conan pages are soft, but every time I see one listed it's more expensive than the last, so maybe that's just in prices actually realized.

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At the end of the day, it's about supply and demand (no surprise there).  If prices go down, it's because there is more supply or less demand.

Now in some cases there was some hype/event that died down. I think most of us OA veterans are immune to gimmicks such as identify reveals or someone dying. I still see people asking a ton for such pages.  Not sure if anyone paid them, but often prices go down once the hype dies down (or the event is retconned)

One broad example comes to mind.  What does everyone think of Identity Crisis today?  I read it when it came out and I thought it wasn't bad.  I didn't understand the hype and how everyone was raving about it.  I don't think it stood the test of time.

Malvin

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8 hours ago, malvin said:

 

One broad example comes to mind.  What does everyone think of Identity Crisis today?  I read it when it came out and I thought it wasn't bad.  I didn't understand the hype and how everyone was raving about it.  I don't think it stood the test of time.

Malvin

I read Identity Crisis too in 2005 and enjoyed it. That said, I have no desire to get a page. I don’t think that event has an impact on DC today (though I can be wrong). IIRC, I was looking for some pages and someone had some for sale from a key issues at ridiculous prices. Something like $3k a page. Pricing like that isn’t going to create a market. Ultimately, if an IC page isn’t properly labeled I don’t think I would recognize it if I see it. 

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5 hours ago, John E. said:

I read Identity Crisis too in 2005 and enjoyed it. That said, I have no desire to get a page. I don’t think that event has an impact on DC today (though I can be wrong). IIRC, I was looking for some pages and someone had some for sale from a key issues at ridiculous prices. Something like $3k a page. Pricing like that isn’t going to create a market. Ultimately, if an IC page isn’t properly labeled I don’t think I would recognize it if I see it. 

This is kind of how I felt about the Hulk #180 pages that recently were up for auction. Great pages just from the standpoint of being Trimpe Hulk, but even if I was in the market for such pages I wouldn't pay a lot extra just because Wolverine first appeared on the final page of the issue.

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I know this is somewhat off topic from the original post, but it does seem there's a side discussion about kindness and negotiation.  So I thought I'd chip in my $0.02.

1. Yes, the seller DOES have much of the power, because the seller has the one-of-a-kind piece that the buyer has decided to pursue. The buyer can decide to go buy something else, but if he/she wants THAT piece, it has to be through that seller. Meaning... it's always best to have a good relationship.

2. There are times where the seller is actively trying to sell a piece, however... making it more of a buyer's market. But even so, as many have said... if it's a piece you want? The biggest regret stories here are ALWAYS "I should have just paid that extra $50, $100, $150" for that page I really wanted. You seldom hear the stories of regret based on "I'm sooo disappointed that, in order to get the page I really wanted I paid the extra $50, $100, etc."  Often, we forget exactly what we paid for a piece pretty quickly.

3. And lastly? Especially when we, as buyers, are ACTIVELY seeking a particular piece.  Meaning, something by a particularly artist on a character, or on a certain era of a book etc...  when a seller approaches you with pages that are not on the market and generously offers them to you? You certainly can say "I appreciate the offer but that's too expensive"... or "I love the piece but all I have is x".... but that's it.  Trying to squeeze or negotiate in that situation, I believe is in pretty bad taste. I'm sitting here in my home office looking at the pages on my wall, and many of them have come from this situation, and I could not be more thankful for the kindness of these people.  And each case I was very honest what my budget was... and when they were able to work with me with in that, we made a deal.  But I was always appreciative and never tried  to "get a deal" from them.  I personally don't think that is the situation where you do that.

 

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When i first started buying art at the end of 1989 when i got in the hobby...GRAY MORROW art was a lot higher than most other artists...now his name is barely mentioned in our hobby.

so for me personally i'd say GRAY MORROW art is probably worth less now than in the 1990s..

Edited by romitaman
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1 hour ago, romitaman said:

When i first started buying art at the end of 1989 when i got in the hobby...GRAY MORROW art was a lot higher than most other artists...now his name is barely mentioned in our hobby.

so for me personally i'd say GRAY MORROW art is probably worth less now than in the 1990s..

Morrow was one of the ones I was thinking too. Val Mayerik is another. Elias, many of the EC artists, including Wally Wood.  In some cases it's not to say that the inflation of OA in the last 10 years hasn't raised the price of all art in general, but certainly some have moved by a much smaller percentage. I'd say in general it can be attributed to the the generation effect of GA and Pre-code and strip art being the staple of older boomers and not late boomers, Gen X, or millennials. Sure, the creme of the crop of the classics like Raymond, Frazetta, Williamson will always be respected, but other guys like Russ Manning?  Not so much.  The nostalgia is waning for Tarzan, Westerns, War, Funny Animals, - it's all super heroes now.

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