Why Steve Ditko left Spider-man/Marvel 4 4

[kav]

6 minutes ago, Sweet Lou 14 said:

There is nothing in Ditko's account one way or another about the fans' politeness or his.  Both are irrelevant anyway.  He made a judgment of their intellectual capacity and their level of development as free thinkers based on the question they asked, and clearly would have made the same judgment regardless of their demeanor.  How they conducted themselves was not the subject of his analysis and conclusion.

Everything you've said in your second paragraph above runs 100% counter to the point Ditko's convoluted essay seems to be trying to make.  He tells us that people thought he didn't want to speak to fans, but he wants us to believe that in fact this was a false assumption.  The fact that fanboys can be annoying, and your reasonable assumption that Ditko must have dealt with many such annoying fanboys, only serves to further support the conclusion those two particular fans made -- namely, that they ought to tread carefully when approaching him.

He proved them right.

Ditko clearly spent a lot of time thinking about and writing about Stan and fans, which kind of nullifies his assertion that none of that was important to him.  

[shadroch]

Ditko started  in comics in 1953, working alongside Kirby and Joe Simon. He'd been in comics almost a decade when Spider-man came along.  Anyone who thinks that Stan was taking advantage of a young artist desperate to fit in is wrong. I can't say it any plainer.  Just the latest in a long line of misfires from Chuck. Maybe he'll change his name again and try to stir the pot once more.

[Prince Namor]

8 hours ago, shadroch said:

Ditko started  in comics in 1953, working alongside Kirby and Joe Simon. He'd been in comics almost a decade when Spider-man came along.  Anyone who thinks that Stan was taking advantage of a young artist desperate to fit in is wrong.

I thought you left? Funny how anyone who makes a big exit from a thread, ALWAYS seems to come back. And who said Stan was taking advantage of a young artist in the business? Ditko did his first story with Stan when he was at the ripe old age of 28, a little under 3 years in the business. So when they started working together Ditko WAS fairly new, compared to Stan. But my point was never that Stan took advantage of him when he was new. That's something YOU somehow came up with.

Quote

I can't say it any plainer.  Just the latest in a long line of misfires from Chuck. Maybe he'll change his name again and try to stir the pot once more.

There's no misfire. Ditko's words are his own. Just because you can't stand the idea of anyone talking about anything that might make Stan look like he wasn't the kind old genius who created every Marvel character is no reason to get upset.

The truth is... Ditko WAS writing the book. Even Stan said so. He just wasn't getting paid for writing it. No pot being stirred here. A is A.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Prince Namor

[Prince Namor]

8 hours ago, kav said:

Ditko clearly spent a lot of time thinking about and writing about Stan and fans, which kind of nullifies his assertion that none of that was important to him.  

Yeah, he just waited 50 years to write about it. 

[Coverless 9.8]

Ditko's first mention as plotter was issue #25 but it was in a blurb on the first page and not in the credits box.  Stan is just listed as the writer.  In issue #26 there is a formal dual credit of plotter and artist for Ditko.  Stan is just listed as the writer.  By issue #27 Stan has a dual tit for tat credit of being the writer and editor.  Discuss/disgust?!  

[theCapraAegagrus]

12 hours ago, shadroch said:

Ditko started  in comics in 1953, working alongside Kirby and Joe Simon. He'd been in comics almost a decade when Spider-man came along.  Anyone who thinks that Stan was taking advantage of a young artist desperate to fit in is wrong. I can't say it any plainer.  Just the latest in a long line of misfires from Chuck. Maybe he'll change his name again and try to stir the pot once more.

I WILL make sure you infer how RIGHT I think I am by my misuse of CAPITALS despite having the ability to BOLD, ITALICIZE, or UNDERLINE on these boards.

[Ken Aldred]

On 7/26/2020 at 4:10 PM, shadroch said:

The Mighty Marvel Bullpen existed only in the minds of Stan and his loyal followers.

Yup. I always imagined it being a hive of activity, with creative energy filling the air. 

So naive.

[Sensei Ryan]

In the 'Silent Self-Deceivers' text written by Ditko he references the debate/issue over which of the AF15 cover options were going to be used.  After comparing the two quite a bit I far prefer the Kirby version (which we all know was the one ultimately used).  I know I'm probably mentally conditioned now that I've seen it a million times over in my lifetime to prefer that one, but comparing the two side by side I still think it's superior and by far more iconic.  I would have loved the Ditko one as well, but I believe that Stan was correct in wanting something better for that issue as he must have known that Marvel was on to something great.  

[Ken Aldred]

5 minutes ago, Sensei Ryan said:

In the 'Silent Self-Deceivers' text written by Ditko he references the debate/issue over which of the AF15 cover options were going to be used.  After comparing the two quite a bit I far prefer the Kirby version (which we all know was the one ultimately used).  I know I'm probably mentally conditioned now that I've seen it a million times over in my lifetime to prefer that one, but comparing the two side by side I still think it's superior and by far more iconic.  I would have loved the Ditko one as well, but I believe that Stan was correct in wanting something better for that issue as he must have known that Marvel was on to something great.  

Easily the best Spider-Man art that Kirby ever did.  
 

The unused alternative cover isn’t one of Ditko’s best.

 

Edited July 28, 2020 by Ken Aldred

[F For Fake]

Stan Lee was a glory hog hack.

Steve Ditko was a crank.

I know which one would probably be more fun to hang out with at a party, but I'd trust what the other one says a lot more.

[trmoore54]

Curious...does anyone know what compensation was in the early to mid-60s.  According to the details of the stories it would suggest there was compensation for each part and piece of the comic...the plot/story/dialogue (not sure if that is one compensation or two or three)...the penciling, the inking, the coloring (?) or is that not a compensated step and done by the press operator...does the person who assigns the colors get compensated?  The letterer?  The person who answers the fan letters?  And if the artist were just getting paid for the pencils and inks what would be the compensation for a single book roughly?  

A salary in 1965 of $25000 equates to $203,500 today or $8.14/dollar increase.  So if you were making that you'd be not rich but pretty comfortable and as relates to other middle class jobs.  Of course if you were making double that you'd be living pretty comfortable and definitely upper middle class.  If you were getting $500-1000 a book I think you'd be in that range.  Seems like a fairly paltry sum for the amount of work and talent that would go into a single book but these things can be relative.  Reminds me when I was in grade school (grade 5-8 would be 1965-1969) and I was pretty sure I was going to be a comic book artist...LOL...

[theCapraAegagrus]

25 minutes ago, trmoore54 said:

Curious...does anyone know what compensation was in the early to mid-60s.  According to the details of the stories it would suggest there was compensation for each part and piece of the comic...the plot/story/dialogue (not sure if that is one compensation or two or three)...the penciling, the inking, the coloring (?) or is that not a compensated step and done by the press operator...does the person who assigns the colors get compensated?  The letterer?  The person who answers the fan letters?  And if the artist were just getting paid for the pencils and inks what would be the compensation for a single book roughly?  

A salary in 1965 of $25000 equates to $203,500 today or $8.14/dollar increase.  So if you were making that you'd be not rich but pretty comfortable and as relates to other middle class jobs.  Of course if you were making double that you'd be living pretty comfortable and definitely upper middle class.  If you were getting $500-1000 a book I think you'd be in that range.  Seems like a fairly paltry sum for the amount of work and talent that would go into a single book but these things can be relative.  Reminds me when I was in grade school (grade 5-8 would be 1965-1969) and I was pretty sure I was going to be a comic book artist...LOL...

[bb8]

I'm getting an uncanny sensation of deja vu with this thread.

[shadroch]

In the 1960s, Stan, Jack, Romita, and John Buscema lived in middle class towns. Jack and Joe Simon lived in my home town of Mineola in the 50s and then moved about two blocks to East Williston., which was considered a better neignborhood. Jack stayed there until he moved to California. Joe kept moving every few years, to progressively better houses before winding up in a very exclusive neighborhood . Stan lived in slightly above average Woodmere before moving to the very upscale Hewlett Harbor sometime in the 70s.

John Romita lived in a nice house two towns over and still owns it, as far as I know. He also did some sidework, and bought a new car every two or three years.  

Frazetta lived afew towns over, in a pretty modest house but he also had a second house in Pennsylvania.

Buscema lived way out on Long Island, near Stony Brook. The house that sits o his old property was built in the 90s and goes for more than a million but I don't know what his house looked like.

Kirbys old house was on the market for about $440,000 a few years back, but had no takers.

I'd imagine the salaries Marvel paid were enough for them them to be considered lower middle class in the 60s, but upper middle class by the 70s, with Stan making more. I believe I read that Stan offered Jack a promotion to art director that paid an extra $3,000 a year but it would have involved going into the office more.

[jjonahjameson11]

6 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

Yup. I always imagined it being a hive of activity, with creative energy filling the air. 

So naive.

I dunno about that...I believe there was a Marvel bullpen in the mid/late 60's as evidenced by Flo Steinberg, Marie Severin, Herb Trimpe, John Romita and others in Alter Ego magazine. 

[kav]

11 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Yeah, he just waited 50 years to write about it. 

Can you give me a timeline of the various Ditko articles you have posted over the years?  I was under the impression he had been talking about this for a long time.

[shadroch]

10 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

I dunno about that...I believe there was a Marvel bullpen in the mid/late 60's as evidenced by Flo Steinberg, Marie Severin, Herb Trimpe, John Romita and others in Alter Ego magazine. 

There was a bullpen in the 50s, but by 1961 Stan was working at a desk in a room with about sixty desks. Flo Stienberg joined him in 1963ish and Sol Brodsky a few months later. 

It wasn't until Magazine Management moved around 1965 that Marvel got its own office and when they moved after Cadence bought them, they got a suite of offices.  Freelancers worked from home. I've never read Herb Trimpe's  story.

[RCheli]

On 7/24/2020 at 10:04 AM, Mercury Man said:

Much like John, Paul and George of the Beatles, it took 3 talents like Stan, Jack and Steve to start something big.  Unfortunately, with great success comes great ego, and the glory days don't usually last.  

I don't think it's ego as much as, with almost any partnership, things run their course. Stan and Jack were a partner for a decade! That's a long time for two people to work closely. I mean, the longest I had a job was 6 years, and in that time, I switched teams, changed positions, moved my desk, so that I had different people to work with. You just get sick of people. Your arguments get louder and for stupid reasons. With the Beatles, it just ran its course. With Stan and Jack and Steve, it did the same.

[Unca Ben]

On 7/27/2020 at 3:14 PM, Sweet Lou 14 said:

I didn't read both of those essays ... the first (shorter) one was enough for me.

So to sum up:  Two strangers come up to speak with him and, out of an abundance of courtesy and respect, acknowledge his reputation for not wanting to speak with fans with a polite apology.  Ditko's reaction is not to think to himself, "How thoughtful that they respect me enough to consider the question of whether or not I would like to be approached," or better yet ask himself "What might I have done to earn such a reputation?"  Instead he dismisses them as small-minded people who accept as "factually true" something they have been told.

Every one of us receives information constantly, a great deal of it second- or third-hand.  All of us need to weigh the probability that each piece of information we receive is at least partly true, depending on the source and any number of other factors, and act accordingly.  The fans who approached Ditko were not "programmed ... parrots" -- they were simply people who weighed the information they'd received and made a simple calculation as to what approach would most likely yield a favorable outcome in their interaction with this (very minor) celebrity.  If their assumption were "factually true" (side note -- it would seem that it absolutely was, as Ditko comes across like a defensive jerk with minimal self-awareness) then their acknowledgment maximizes their chances of a friendly response from someone who would ordinarily be unwelcoming.  And if their assumption were false, it gives the more welcoming celebrity an opportunity to cheerfully correct them, proving the falseness of said assumption and turning two strangers into evangelists for his reputation.

The calculation those fans made was 100% on target, even for someone who wants to apply game theory and subject it to absurdist analytic scrutiny (as I have somewhat lazily done above).

Or we could just say that they were thoughtful, polite people with a basic mastery of social norms and adequate interpersonal skills, something Ditko clearly lacked.

Yeah, Ditko loved his fans!

[Unca Ben]

And Ditko was easy to work with.  After all, he lasted for years and years  at DC after he left Marvel.  Oh, wait...

I do believe it was quoted as him being "uncompromising."   Which may explain his long tenure at Charlton where he was pretty much left alone, as opposed to the Big Two, where collaboration was essential.  Not to mention his dust-up with Fantagraphics.

And, according to him, any problems with comic book people and fans were always their fault.
I've worked with folks like that.  Briefly.

Steve Ditko and the Comic-Book People
 

 

Edited July 29, 2020 by Unca Ben