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Why Steve Ditko left Spider-man/Marvel
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147 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

And Ditko was easy to work with.  After all, he lasted for years and years  at DC after he left Marvel.  Oh, wait...

I do believe it was quoted as him being "uncompromising."   Which may explain his long tenure at Charlton where he was pretty much left alone, as opposed to the Big Two, where collaboration was essential.  Not to mention his dust-up with Fantagraphics.

And, according to him, any problems with comic book people and fans were always their fault.
I've worked with folks like that.  Briefly.

Steve Ditko and the Comic-Book People
 

 

There's no doubt Ditko had his fallings out with comic book companies - but are they anymore different than say... Jim Starlin? Roy Thomas? Frank Miller? They all had fallings out and bounced around from publisher to publisher at different times, but why aren't they considered hard to work with? Hasn't probably more than 50% of all creators from the Bronze Age had some kind of falling out with Marvel or DC or both?

Ditko did work with Stan Lee for a decade before they had a falling out, and with Robin Snyder for... 40 years? He also worked at Charlton, with numerous writers and editors for 30 years. He also did work with Pacific Comics for a number of years. Seems he had a lot more long lasting employers than not.

Not saying he couldn't be 'prickly'... he certainly was, especially with fans. Seems to me mostly with fans. 

Thanks for posting the article - hadn't seen that before!

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I'm as big a fan of Ditko as anyone, in fact more so than some here.  The 40-some worth of Spidey issues by Ditko/Lee were among the best run of stories ever published, IMO.

I would have loved to see Steve's vision in continuing his maturing of Peter Parker, and his resolution to the Norman Osborne/GG subplot. I believe Steve would have stretched it out more.  Maybe not.  
And would he have revealed Mary Jane to us as quickly, if ever?  Steve liked to stretch out the element of mystery.  Lee and Romita wrapped up those mysteries in their first 4 issues after Ditko developed them for years.

I fantasize Romita taking over ASM after issue 50.

That being said, if Ditko felt that his "handler" - as in Stan Lee, was ruining his art thru sound effects, edits, and dialogue - then I'm happy that Ditko left when he did.  

To see Peter Parker behave more and more like The Question or Mr. A would have been hard to watch.  Steve's vision of a fully-matured Parker would have been much different than Stan's. 

Ditko's stated several times that the idea of a flawed hero with "feet of clay" as a matured product is not a real hero.  Pete's neurosis, that Ditko conveyed so well, was undergoing change. 
I'd bet that we wouldn't have seen Pete still wrestling with his guilt over Uncle Ben, as he resolved that particular monkey on Peter's back in issue 33.  Which I think would have been a good thing.

But there are scenes with Beatniks, Hippies and protesters that clearly were being handled more and more differently between Steve and Stan.  The minskirts, go-go dancing, the Coffee Bean, and the changing view on protesters -all which came after Ditko - would have been much different, if they happened at all, with Ditko.

It's a shame as Steve brought so much to the table in Spider-Man.  But the direction the book ended up going was not conducive to collaboration with Steve. 
Steve was becoming more and more uncompromising.  "Prickly", if you wanna call it.  :smile:

Yeah, we read about Steve leaving because Stan quit seeing him in person. 
Which is not how someone in charge acts if they want to keep the other worker around for a length of time.  Especially on a best-selling title.
Hmm.

 

Edited by Unca Ben
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5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

I'm as big a fan of Ditko as anyone, in fact more so than some here.  The 40-some worth of Spidey issues by Ditko/Lee were among the best run of stories ever published, IMO.

I agree with everything you said in this post, but I want to break this down because you make some great points that I don't want to be overlooked. YES - the greatest run of a mainstream comic ever, up there with Lee/Kirby's FF and Lee/Romita's ASM.

5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

I would have loved to see Steve's vision in continuing his maturing of Peter Parker, and his resolution to the Norman Osborne/GG subplot. I believe Steve would have stretched it out more.  Maybe not.

It would've been different and yeah, it would've been interesting to see what his thought process was...

5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

  And would he have revealed Mary Jane to us as quickly, if ever?  Steve liked to stretch out the element of mystery.  Lee and Romita wrapped up those mysteries in their first 4 issues after Ditko developed them for years.

I fantasize Romita taking over ASM after issue 50.

I can't imagine MJ being introduced as amazingly as Romita did it... I wonder what Ditko's idea was behind that build up of her - if it was the same as what eventually happened or if he had a different idea.

5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

That being said, if Ditko felt that his "handler" - as in Stan Lee, was ruining his art thru sound effects, edits, and dialogue - then I'm happy that Ditko left when he did.

All creative people are going to feel that way - even Kirby argued with Stan over changes he made. Not saying either is right... Stan did what he thought was best for Marvel in general, and it proved to be financial beneficial to the company - but guys like Ditko and Kirby - real story tellers - are always going to THINK they know best.

That fight for what the final produced work is - is what made Marvel special. And so when Ditko didn't want to do that anymore...wait, I'm going to have to address this separately...

5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

To see Peter Parker behave more and more like The Question or Mr. A would have been hard to watch.  Steve's vision of a fully-matured Parker would have been much different than Stan's. 

Ditko's stated several times that the idea of a flawed hero with "feet of clay" as a matured product is not a real hero.  Pete's neurosis, that Ditko conveyed so well, was undergoing change. 
I'd bet that we wouldn't have seen Pete still wrestling with his guilt over Uncle Ben, as he resolved that particular monkey on Peter's back in issue 33.  Which I think would have been a good thing.

I agree... but... tell me it wasn't cool at the end of #33 when Pete, having gone through all that he's been through, strong arms JJJ for more money and blows off Betty and Ned - he finally stands up for himself! Of course... yeah... if that had become the dominant side of his personality, it wouldn't have been as interesting...

As much as I enjoyed those initial Mr.A stories, they do get pretty bland and repetitive after awhile. A black and white world is pretty boring. 

5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

But there are scenes with Beatniks, Hippies and protesters that clearly were being handled more and more differently between Steve and Stan.  The minskirts, go-go dancing, the Coffee Bean, and the changing view on protesters -all which came after Ditko - would have been much different, if they happened at all, with Ditko.

This was the genius of Stan. He saw what was coming - he saw who was reading the books (through campus speaking engagements) and rather than push his own agenda on people (as Ditko would have), he took a more progressive path that he saw as financially beneficial and certainly more interesting story-wise with the book.

I have no idea what Stan's real views were - maybe he WAS pushing his own agenda - but as a story editor/writer/plotter he was very much a liberal. That's why it's funny these days to see the opposite of that champion him so much, because what he stood for in the comics would be seen as SJW politics to them today. 

5 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

It's a shame as Steve brought so much to the table in Spider-Man.  But the direction the book ended up going was not conducive to collaboration with Steve. 
Steve was becoming more and more uncompromising.  "Prickly", if you wanna call it.  :smile:

Yeah, we read about Steve leaving because Stan quit seeing him in person. 
Which is not how someone in charge acts if they want to keep the other worker around for a length of time.  Especially on a best-selling title.
Hmm.

Great point that no one has brought up yet. I agree - I think Stan WANTED him to leave. The book was popular and selling well, but Stan saw where it was going and where he felt it needed to go (and he was right), but he couldn't outright fire Ditko because it would've created a backlash (and dented the carefully cultivated image he was creating for himself), so he ignored him and waited it out.

Romita would've started drawing/plotting with Stan on Daredevil #16 (guest starring Spider-man) around Dec 1965/Jan 1966 - and Steve would've turned in his last story around February... so he was already planning...

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6 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

That being said, if Ditko felt that his "handler" - as in Stan Lee, was ruining his art thru sound effects, edits, and dialogue - then I'm happy that Ditko left when he did.  

Ditko says that Stan and his collaboration worked fine for many years. But once Stan got busier (my words), they ran into problems (my words based on HIS words). Stan changed the way they did covers and so Steve would ask what Stan wanted - Stan still wouldn't be happy and then he'd tell Steve to just come up with something (Ditko's words). Then they'd make changes. It's only natural an artist would get his feelings ruffled by this.

Now when this started to occur more on the stories, Stan's version is that Ditko became hard to work with - Ditko's version is that Stan put more of the work on him - which we have seen him do to other artists as he got more and more busier. Ditko would do most of the work - Stan would make changes - of course causing creative butthurt from the artist, but then - sign his name to it as the writer. 

Who wouldn't that bother?

Stan didn't say, "No, we're doing it THIS way." He told Ditko to go make up his own ideas. That's what Ditko did.

Ditko didn't just decide to do the book himself - an editor would've never let that happen. STAN MADE THAT DECISION.

But still signed on and got paid for being the writer. Ditko did not get paid for being the writer.

That was why Ditko says he left.

 

Was Ditko 'prickly' and hard headed about what he wanted? Sure. As many co-creators are. Stan was 'prickly' and hard headed about what HE wanted too. After all, it was pretty much HIS comic book company to run, why wouldn't he be? But he made the decision to let Ditko take over that book... why? To see if it would falter? Out of frustration? Because he hoped Ditko would quit? Because he had a vision of where he wanted it to go?

The big question to me is...why did he continue to sign his name as the writer?

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Many good points being brought up by many people.

As to what Mary Jane would have looked like or acted like, I think this page gave us a "sneak peek" as to what Ditko was aiming for.  That's MJ in the second to the last panel!

 

 

asm25pg19mine (2).jpg

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1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

Ditko says that Stan and his collaboration worked fine for many years. But once Stan got busier (my words), they ran into problems (my words based on HIS words). Stan changed the way they did covers and so Steve would ask what Stan wanted - Stan still wouldn't be happy and then he'd tell Steve to just come up with something (Ditko's words). Then they'd make changes. It's only natural an artist would get his feelings ruffled by this.

I once drew 20 different fully inked covers for a writer and I was working for free.  He kept changing his mind.  The last one I said this is the last one-if you dont like it find someone else as I am unable.  He told me to draw "The hero sitting and looking at his mask and he's thinking about what it's like to be a super hero and is he cut out for it".  I told him you cannot draw thoughts without a thought balloon.   He actually thought I could draw an image and people would be able to look and it and say "Oh look he's looking at his mask and he's thinking about what it's like to be a super hero and is he cut out for it".

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2 hours ago, Timely said:

Many good points being brought up by many people.

As to what Mary Jane would have looked like or acted like, I think this page gave us a "sneak peek" as to what Ditko was aiming for.  That's MJ in the second to the last panel!

 

 

asm25pg19mine (2).jpg

Not quite the same pizzaz as Romita would give her! Great page...

Interesting how Romita would make MJ a real bombshell... a much 'sweeter' version Gwen... Hmmm... Sweeter Gwen... who drew that panel there? :wink:

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20 hours ago, Unca Ben said:

And would he have revealed Mary Jane to us as quickly, if ever?  Steve liked to stretch out the element of mystery. 

 

14 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

I can't imagine MJ being introduced as amazingly as Romita did it... I wonder what Ditko's idea was behind that build up of her - if it was the same as what eventually happened or if he had a different idea.

I'm of the mind that Steve and Stan created MJ as one of those characters that are talked about - perhaps even heard - but never seen.  It's not an uncommon trope but can be very effective.
Carlton the bellhop in Rhoda.  Niles Crane's wife Maris in Frazier.  The Ugly Naked Guy in Friends.  And so on.  I beleive old TV shows like Jackie Gleason and Jack Benny had characters like that.

MJ was unusually effective as that type of character.  The next-door-neighbor niece that Aunt May desperately tried to set Peter up with.  Flash, Betty, and Liz knew she was beautiful.  I'm sure Aunt May and Emma Watson thought she was pretty.  Even us readers knew she was beautiful even though we never saw her face.  Everyone knew except our star, Peter Parker.  That was genius. :applause:

Would Steve have eventually revealed her?  Who knows?  Maybe he mentioned it in one of his later rants published by Robin Snyder.  I never saw it.

Edited by Unca Ben
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Something else interesting I just noticed... Dr. Strange first appeared in Strange Tales #110, which we know from Stan's own words "Twas, Steve's idea...", but wouldn't even get a mention on the cover until #117. Peculiar that a new hero, would go 7 issues (he wasn't in #112), including his origin in #115, without even a blurb on the cover about him! He finally gets a small box mention on the cover in #118, but then doesn't show his face on the cover again until #121!

He finally gets a 2/3rds cover appearance in #130 (but drawn by Kirby), which wouldn't happen again until #146 when he finally makes a full cover appearance! And guess what issue that is? Ditko's LAST issue!

In fact - ASM #26, the well talked about issue where Ditko finally gets credit as co-plotter/artist, coincides with Stan taking Doctor Strange OFF the cover of Strange Tales altogether! Hmmm.... He gets a word balloon on #134 and NOTHING on #135. After a small panel at the bottom on #136, and a blurb on #137, the next ten issues feature FULL Nick Fury covers with no mention of DS on 6 of those 9 covers - until Ditko's farewell issue, that Stan interestingly titled "The End at Last!" LOL.

At the same time - Cap and Iron man split the cover of every Tales of Suspense, until they started alternating covers with #70 (until it turned into Cap's own series with #100) - and Tales to Astonish would split every cover with Ant-Man and Hulk before they started alternating covers with Hulk and Sub-Mariner (before becoming Hulk's own titles with #102).

Oh and after Ditko left Marvel? Doctor Strange would appear on every other cover. hm

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Steve has an interesting writing style.  Quirky might be a euphemism. It is not good writing.  (His sentence structure with multiple synonyms and commas reads not so much like stream of consciousness but a grasping for the right word or phrase.)  Looking back, it actually reads as a presage to modern internet ranting.  It's interesting how often he uses the word justice.  Steve on a couch just might be a psychiatrist's or psychologist's dream patient.  I'm not taking Stan's side at all nor am I bashing Steve for defending his "position(s)"...just saying it comes off as really defensive and weak from a debate standpoint.  And the way he writes doesn't help support his position.

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26 minutes ago, trmoore54 said:

Steve on a couch just might be a psychiatrist's or psychologist's dream patient. 

I have to agree here.  In my opinion he had a lot of resentment for-well, everybody.  This is not healthy.  I would have started off the session exploring his stance that he does not sign anything because "If I do it for one person, I have to do it for everyone".  I would point out well Steve if a woman goes out with one person, that does not mean she has to go out with everyone-you seem to feel you are not in control of your choices, and I see that too in your relationship with this stan lee fellow.  Steve, there's a book you should read-"
Baby Steps book... what about Bob?" Hardcover Journal by ...

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17 hours ago, trmoore54 said:

Steve has an interesting writing style.  Quirky might be a euphemism. It is not good writing.  (His sentence structure with multiple synonyms and commas reads not so much like stream of consciousness but a grasping for the right word or phrase.)  Looking back, it actually reads as a presage to modern internet ranting.  It's interesting how often he uses the word justice.  Steve on a couch just might be a psychiatrist's or psychologist's dream patient.  I'm not taking Stan's side at all nor am I bashing Steve for defending his "position(s)"...just saying it comes off as really defensive and weak from a debate standpoint.  And the way he writes doesn't help support his position.

From a psychological stand point - not really. Stan would probably be a much more complex and interesting study because he's much better at... uh... hiding the truth/manipulating events/changing his story/conveniently forgetting facts, etc.

Ditko is simple. People who have an extreme black and white thinking process, in pretty general terms, need some form of therapy. This form of thinking usually shelters the individual (making relationships difficult if not impossible), plays hell with their self image, and holds them back from a successfully rewarding life. All of which pretty much seem to apply here.

In basic terms - Ditko experienced situations in work (we know of) and maybe life (I'm guessing) that he felt were unfair. Rather than understand that people and the world are filled with grey areas of uncertainty, he withdrew more and more, eventually withdrawing completely - while gaining inspiration from Objectivism. He spent the rest of his life working in seclusion, with a small group of outside contacts. His personal life is a mystery, though we know he had relatives.

I just don't think it'd be all that interesting. It seems pretty cut and dry.

Ditko was as fanatical in his own beliefs as the people he shunned (comic book fans) in their own beliefs.

Though I have to admit I'm looking forward to reading this here in a few days!

http://www.comiclist.com/index.php/news/ditko-family-endorses-new-biography-ditko-shrugged

 

image.jpeg

Edited by Prince Namor
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Seems Sturdy Steve wasn't the only Marvel pro to have a negative view of fans back in the day.... here 'Happy' Herb Trimpe lets loose a bit. 

Check it out at 6:18.

His views on people in his profession are pretty interesting too. Also - some classic footage of the Marvel 'Bullpen'!

To be fair - the Herb Trimpe I met a few times at shows was one of the nicest, most respectable creators I ever interacted with, who was very happy to spend time with fans.

 

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2 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Seems Sturdy Steve wasn't the only Marvel pro to have a negative view of fans back in the day.... here 'Happy' Herb Trimpe lets loose a bit. 

Check it out at 6:18.

His views on people in his profession are pretty interesting too. Also - some classic footage of the Marvel 'Bullpen'!

To be fair - the Herb Trimpe I met a few times at shows was one of the nicest, most respectable creators I ever interacted with, who was very happy to spend time with fans.

I would wager that many creators who became 'past their prime' figured out quickly that the unwashed masses comprising 'fandom' would likely become a primary source of income and, lo and behold, they weren't so bad anymore!

Edited by bb8
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4 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

Seems Sturdy Steve wasn't the only Marvel pro to have a negative view of fans back in the day.... here 'Happy' Herb Trimpe lets loose a bit. 

Check it out at 6:18.

His views on people in his profession are pretty interesting too. Also - some classic footage of the Marvel 'Bullpen'!

To be fair - the Herb Trimpe I met a few times at shows was one of the nicest, most respectable creators I ever interacted with, who was very happy to spend time with fans.

 

Interesting video.

One thing that I noted:
It's often stated that the Marvel Bullpen was an illusion created by Stan and that only a few people actually worked together in the offices - the production crew and guys like John Romita when he became Art Manager. But the artists didn't work together as Stan implied.

Yet here we see Herb, Marie, John, and I think Tony M (doing the cut & paste - mebbe it's someone else - Dan Adkins, perhaps?) working and drawing in the same small space.  And certainly other members the (small) production crew were somewhere close by.

Kinda like a Bullpen.  :smile:

Now, maybe they didn't work like this all the time - but there it is on film.

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1 hour ago, bb8 said:

I would wager that many creators who became 'past their prime' figured out quickly that the unwashed masses comprising 'fandom' would likely become a primary source of income and, lo and behold, they weren't so bad anymore!

Primary? Geez, I hope not. For a lot of those guys, they come to the shows and pay for their own travel and hotel - you figure they put out as much as $2000 to $4000 to show up with their wife or helper - most don't own ANY of their original art work, so they sketch and draw the whole show, maybe have a fee for an autograph to help out... It's not like the movie stars, who have an endless line.

A few years before he passed away, Herb Trimpe, I walked up to his table - no line at all and spent 30 minutes talking to him and his wife. I ended up buying a $200 Wolverine piece from him. Super nice guy. Hope he got his hotel paid for by the convention, because I just didn't see him making the kind of money people think.

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8 minutes ago, Unca Ben said:

Interesting video.

One thing that I noted:
It's often stated that the Marvel Bullpen was an illusion created by Stan and that only a few people actually worked together in the offices - the production crew and guys like John Romita when he became Art Manager. But the artists didn't work together as Stan implied.

Yet here we see Herb, Marie, John, and I think Tony M (doing the cut & paste - mebbe it's someone else - Dan Adkins, perhaps?) working and drawing in the same small space.  And certainly other members the (small) production crew were somewhere close by.

Kinda like a Bullpen.  :smile:

Now, maybe they didn't work like this all the time - but there it is on film.

Back in the 'Stan, Steve and Jack did everything' era, which included a few other people of course, there was no 'artist' bullpen. I think Stan made it seem like that to sound like a big successful EC style company. Eventually they'd get there.

I remember Marie Severin's map from Foom #16. 

image.jpeg

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