Jose Delbo's cryptoart close to $7k and rising at auction 0

[NelsonAI]

If there are shill bids on Heritage and ComicLink, why wouldn't there be potential shill bids on this auction?

[Rick2you2]

5 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

Not different from any other commission, I'd think.  Meaning not "legal" per se sans permission, but rarely enforced (unless the trademark is portrayed in a way that puts it in a negative light or for some egregious advertisement, i.e, Supes recommending a strip club or a Burger King meal without permission).

I think there is a difference here. With a commission, it is a one off piece which is intended for personal use. Using it for commercial purposes in an ad, without permission, not only costs DC's parent company a licensing fee, but runs the risk of losing its protected status (like "cellophane"). If they behave like Disney, that won't be tolerated.

[exitmusicblue]

51 minutes ago, NelsonAI said:

If there are shill bids on Heritage and ComicLink, why wouldn't there be potential shill bids on this auction?

Possible for pretty much any auction on any platform.

12 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I think there is a difference here. With a commission, it is a one off piece which is intended for personal use. Using it for commercial purposes in an ad, without permission, not only costs DC's parent company a licensing fee, but runs the risk of losing its protected status (like "cellophane"). If they behave like Disney, that won't be tolerated.

But this isn't an ad. Makersplace is a cryptoart ebay (with a higher barrier than ebay for artists/sellers).

[Rick2you2]

3 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

Possible for pretty much any auction on any platform.

But this isn't an ad. Makersplace is a cryptoart ebay (with a higher barrier than ebay for artists/sellers).

From what I read, Delbo is selling all his rights to the art. When you buy a commissioned piece, you ordinarily do not get the right to re-use or market the image. So, that makes it worth more for commercial purposes.

[exitmusicblue]

17 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

From what I read, Delbo is selling all his rights to the art. When you buy a commissioned piece, you ordinarily do not get the right to re-use or market the image. So, that makes it worth more for commercial purposes.

No worries -- "You're purchasing the full non-commerical rights to this creation."

[Will_K]

So basically, people are bidding for the right to hang a one of a kind (i.e. blockchain tagged) digital picture in their digital museum.  Or maybe it just sits in their digital Itoya ("sold separately").  These guys are the blockchain version of HA.com. 

I'm sure the blockchain currency detractors would say all of this is a gimmick to get people to buy blockchain currencies (e.g. bitcoin) using "real world" currencies (e.g. US$) so they can buy blockchain objects.  Which boosts blockchain.  Rinse and repeat. 

See:

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/437082-slabbing-art-with-blockchain/

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/419191-art-with-bitcoin

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/topic/454131-comic-arts-future-a-survey/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-10766293

 

[exitmusicblue]

It would be naive for anyone to say $$ isn't a main driver.

Fortunately, it isn't the only driver.  : )

[exitmusicblue]

Hammer at 27 ETH, wow.

Anyhow, as someone who doesn't actually bid on these things (yet... I like my OA in my hands), I say good for Mr. Delbo.  Zero con business these days, so these auctions have proven a real boon per his grandson.

Back to regular programming for me; plenty of resources online for the curious.

 

Edited July 26, 2020 by exitmusicblue

[Rick2you2]

9 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

No worries -- "You're purchasing the full non-commerical rights to this creation."

Oops. 

[Rick2you2]

8 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

Hammer at 27 ETH, wow.

Anyhow, as someone who doesn't actually bid on these things (yet... I like my OA in my hands), I say good for Mr. Delbo.  Zero con business these days, so these auctions have proven a real boon per his grandson.

Back to regular programming for me; plenty of resources online for the curious.

 

Is there a logical explanation for this price, other than some people and some markets are dumb?

[delekkerste]

On 7/24/2020 at 7:52 PM, exitmusicblue said:

This is why from the beginning, I've pishposhed at wide-brush doomsaying pessimists re: the OA space.

The Internet, ebay, CAF, etc. have changed the paradigm for OA.  Films.  Disney.  What's next?  Could anyone have predicted this cryptoart boom 5 years go?  Or digital art in the pre-Paik Nam June years?

It all begins with the art. With every newfangled innovation, much of OA only rises in value.  And at the end of the day, for as long as we're human,* art won't be going anywhere.

*No guarantees beyond this.

I disagree.  

1.  The person who buys crypto art isn't very likely to be interested in traditional OA, just as the person who invests in crypto is very unlikely to be interested in fiat currencies. Heck, there isn't even much crossover between newer, modern OA buyers and vintage OA collectors (some, but, not much in the grand scheme of things, and it's mostly older collectors dabbling in the newer stuff rather than the other way around)

2.  Unlike many here, I'm not dismissing things like this out of hand.  Being a dabbler in trading cards, but, following that market with great fascination, we've seen that a lot of newer, manufactured collectible cards are now fetching far more money than their vintage counterparts - it seems/it is absurd, but, that's what the moneyed younger collectors are into (and a lot of older collectors have become converts, because that's where the money/action is).  That said, again, there is very little traffic going the other way - I hear people talk all the time about how people who see the movies or buy newer art will inevitably go back to get the truly scarce/important/seminal vintage art.  Well, it's not really happening, either in OA or in trading cards.  Anyway, digital art on a blockchain that might be worth more than an actual physical piece by the same artist?  Sure, why not.  I can see it, but, don't think it's necessarily going to have any impact whatsoever on the physical OA market.  

3.  That said, 2020 is not going to end up being the baseline to draw any conclusions about the future.  There are things going on now in markets that are plainly unsustainable. So, if digital art on a blockchain just ends up being a fad that flames out, I won't be surprised if that happens either.  

Edited July 26, 2020 by delekkerste

[Will_K]

I was hoping @delekkerste would chime in.

Re: item 1 and item 2

I don't recall the "crossover" between older/vintage and younger/modern has been made so explicit.  Something to think about.

Edited July 26, 2020 by Will_K

[ShallowDan]

1 hour ago, delekkerste said:

 

Being a dabbler in trading cards, but, following that market with great fascination, we've seen that a lot of newer, manufactured collectible cards are now fetching far more money than their vintage counterparts - it seems/it is absurd, but, that's what the moneyed younger collectors are into (and a lot of older collectors have become converts, because that's where the money/action is).  That said, again, there is very little traffic going the other way - I hear people talk all the time about how people who see the movies or buy newer art will inevitably go back to get the truly scarce/important/seminal vintage art.  Well, it's not really happening, either in OA or in trading cards.  Anyway, digital art on a blockchain that might be worth more than an actual physical piece by the same artist?  Sure, why not.  I can see it, but, don't think it's necessarily going to have any impact whatsoever on the physical OA market.  

 

I don't follow trading cards at all; do you mind elaborating on what sort of cards you're referencing here?  Sports or non-sports?  Are the newer cards a manufactured/artificial scarcity type thing (similar to the Mondo limited-edition poster scene)? 

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, Will_K said:

I was hoping @delekkerste would chime in.

Re: item 1 and item 2

I don't recall the "crossover" between older/vintage and younger/modern has been made so explicit.  Something to think about.

I’m not one of them, l like both. But, a lot of this market is nostalgia driven, so it does make sense.

[delekkerste]

44 minutes ago, ShallowDan said:

I don't follow trading cards at all; do you mind elaborating on what sort of cards you're referencing here?  Sports or non-sports?  Are the newer cards a manufactured/artificial scarcity type thing (similar to the Mondo limited-edition poster scene)? 

Talking about sports cards.  The modern sports card market is nothing like it used to be if you collected in the '70s,' 80s or early '90s.  Nowadays, it's all about the "hits" - numbered variants (1/250, 1/150, 1/99, 1/50, 1/25, 1/5, 1/1, etc.) including refractor and superfractor (1/1) cards (different colored versions of the normal "base" card - nobody cares about regular base cards anymore, it's 100% all about the "hits" - with a shimmering coating), autograph cards, swatch/relic cards (whereby a piece of a uniform or equipment is inserted onto the card).  Basically all of the things that comic book fans realized in the '90s were gimmicks and totally artificial.  But, it's achieved monumental heights of belief in sports cards.  A LeBron James rookie card (edition of 23) with a jersey swatch and autograph, just fetched $1.845 million (!!!) at auction.  A 2009 Mike Trout rookie card recently sold for $900K at auction (and it's not even the rarest variant!)  A Michael Jordan/LeBron James dual patch card also sold for $900K this year.  Lest you think these are outliers, check out PWCC Auctions' weekly eBay auctions - every week there are gimmick cards hitting 4, 5, even 6 figures - I mean we're not talking about a handful of cards, we're talking about dozens of them, maybe even hundreds (almost all of the manufactured collectible variety).  It's more frothy and speculative than any other collectibles market you've ever seen.  And, yet, it's also telling that this is what many collectors are into these days, while not giving a hoot about the blue chip vintage cards. 

So, yeah, similarly, if modern OA or digital OA or comic book movie props or whatever else go to the moon, I don't think it necessarily has to feed back to vintage OA at all. 

Edited July 26, 2020 by delekkerste

[ShallowDan]

38 minutes ago, delekkerste said:

Talking about sports cards.  The modern sports card market is nothing like it used to be if you collected in the '70s,' 80s or early '90s.  Nowadays, it's all about the "hits" - numbered variants (1/250, 1/150, 1/99, 1/50, 1/25, 1/5, 1/1, etc.) including refractor and superfractor (1/1) cards (different colored versions of the normal "base" card - nobody cares about regular base cards anymore, it's 100% all about the "hits" - with a shimmering coating), autograph cards, swatch/relic cards (whereby a piece of a uniform or equipment is inserted onto the card).  Basically all of the things that comic book fans realized in the '90s were gimmicks and totally artificial.  But, it's achieved monumental heights of belief in sports cards.  A LeBron James rookie card (edition of 23) with a jersey swatch and autograph, just fetched $1.845 million (!!!) at auction.  A 2009 Mike Trout rookie card recently sold for $900K at auction (and it's not even the rarest variant!)  A Michael Jordan/LeBron James dual patch card also sold for $900K this year.  Lest you think these are outliers, check out PWCC Auctions' weekly eBay auctions - every week there are gimmick cards hitting 4, 5, even 6 figures - I mean we're not talking about a handful of cards, we're talking about dozens of them, maybe even hundreds (almost all of the manufactured collectible variety).  It's more frothy and speculative than any other collectibles market you've ever seen.  And, yet, it's also telling that this is what many collectors are into these days, while not giving a hoot about the blue chip vintage cards. 

So, yeah, similarly, if modern OA or digital OA or comic book movie props or whatever else go to the moon, I don't think it necessarily has to feed back to vintage OA at all. 

Wow at the bolded.  I knew the non-sports card arena had been leaning heavily into chase/gimmick territory for years, but had no idea sports cards were doing the same thing.

Now I'm just waiting for Blockchain Beanie Babies, so the whole thing comes full circle....

[exitmusicblue]

All fair points.  Looking forward to whatever's ahead... }:-)

[Squeezy McSphincter]

2 hours ago, ShallowDan said:

Wow at the bolded.  I knew the non-sports card arena had been leaning heavily into chase/gimmick territory for years, but had no idea sports cards were doing the same thing.

Now I'm just waiting for Blockchain Beanie Babies, so the whole thing comes full circle....

There's already been blockchain Beanie Babies.  They're called CrytoKitties and their price peaked in the low six figures from what I remember.

I don't buy sports cards, but I did fall into that rabbit hole on YouTube a few months ago.  Some of the highest end (as far as I know) new boxes are retailing for $25k.  Some of it can be pretty cool, but if you pick a bad box you can be out a lot of cash in the 5 minutes it takes to open everything.

[comix4fun]

7 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I disagree.  

1.  The person who buys crypto art isn't very likely to be interested in traditional OA, just as the person who invests in crypto is very unlikely to be interested in fiat currencies. Heck, there isn't even much crossover between newer, modern OA buyers and vintage OA collectors (some, but, not much in the grand scheme of things, and it's mostly older collectors dabbling in the newer stuff rather than the other way around)

2.  Unlike many here, I'm not dismissing things like this out of hand.  Being a dabbler in trading cards, but, following that market with great fascination, we've seen that a lot of newer, manufactured collectible cards are now fetching far more money than their vintage counterparts - it seems/it is absurd, but, that's what the moneyed younger collectors are into (and a lot of older collectors have become converts, because that's where the money/action is).  That said, again, there is very little traffic going the other way - I hear people talk all the time about how people who see the movies or buy newer art will inevitably go back to get the truly scarce/important/seminal vintage art.  Well, it's not really happening, either in OA or in trading cards.  Anyway, digital art on a blockchain that might be worth more than an actual physical piece by the same artist?  Sure, why not.  I can see it, but, don't think it's necessarily going to have any impact whatsoever on the physical OA market.  

3.  That said, 2020 is not going to end up being the baseline to draw any conclusions about the future.  There are things going on now in markets that are plainly unsustainable. So, if digital art on a blockchain just ends up being a fad that flames out, I won't be surprised if that happens either.  

This is just the kind of post that's going to win you Forumite of the Year™ one day.....you just watch. 

[exitmusicblue]

Enh, I'm just keepin' on the (Rogue) gloves and not removing my (ruby) glasses. B-)