Tradd Moore Surfer Drop July 25, 2020 2 2

[sfilosa]

10 hours ago, ShallowDan said:

With really hot/in-demand "drops", I've always thought that a fairly simple first step solution would be to simply have a one-per-customer limit, for say the first 24 hours of release.  Yes, there are some who will inevitably game the system and have others buying for them as well, but even then the fact that they would be reliant on completing multiple transactions would help flatten the play field somewhat.

Note: I'm not specifically speaking of Felix here.  I've never bought from him and don't know how quickly things usually go at release.  It's more of a comment on sneakers, posters,toys and other things where you often have folks snapping up multiples for resale.

The reason the 24 hour rule wouldn't work is simple......"demand is created by demand". 

Think of it this way. 25 pieces being auctioned off. Drop occurs. Five minutes later 15 pieces show "hold" on them. Now the other 10 pieces are more in demand as the supply appears to being drying up. But maybe most of those pieces were bought by one person. If only 5 sold to 5 different people, there would be less demand for the remaining 20.

I know your argument would be all the piece (that people would want) would eventually be sold in 24 hours but that is not true. The second and third tier pieces might never sell, since they are "available" and there appears to be very little demand for them. But if most of the pieces are sold quickly, better buy what you can now before there is none left.

 

[ShallowDan]

2 hours ago, sfilosa said:

The reason the 24 hour rule wouldn't work is simple......"demand is created by demand". 

Think of it this way. 25 pieces being auctioned off. Drop occurs. Five minutes later 15 pieces show "hold" on them. Now the other 10 pieces are more in demand as the supply appears to being drying up. But maybe most of those pieces were bought by one person. If only 5 sold to 5 different people, there would be less demand for the remaining 20.

I know your argument would be all the piece (that people would want) would eventually be sold in 24 hours but that is not true. The second and third tier pieces might never sell, since they are "available" and there appears to be very little demand for them. But if most of the pieces are sold quickly, better buy what you can now before there is none left.

 

Hmmm...  I get the general idea of where you're coming from here, but what would be an example of a third-tier Tradd Moore SSB page?  

[sfilosa]

37 minutes ago, ShallowDan said:

Hmmm...  I get the general idea of where you're coming from here, but what would be an example of a third-tier Tradd Moore SSB page?  

Valid point on SSB but I wasn't specifically talking about Tradd Moore.

Now if you wanted to come up with a better system...

* For art drops, no more than one item ordered in the cart.

* You can order as much as you want.

* Then art given in order of submittal.

Therefore if I order page 5, you order page 6 and then I order page 6, I get page 5 and you get page 6. If no one ordered page 6, I would get page 5 and 6. Therefore, everything still sells, but I can't put everything into my cart really quick and get multiple pieces. If I put 5 pieces in my cart and you put the exact same 5 as me, I submit two seconds ahead of you, I get all, and you get none. Should be a better system than that.

Edited August 23, 2020 by sfilosa
Didn't post anything by accident.

[dichotomy]

6 hours ago, sfilosa said:

Valid point on SSB but I wasn't specifically talking about Tradd Moore.

Now if you wanted to come up with a better system...

* For art drops, no more than one item ordered in the cart.

* You can order as much as you want.

* Then art given in order of submittal.

Therefore if I order page 5, you order page 6 and then I order page 6, I get page 5 and you get page 6. If no one ordered page 6, I would get page 5 and 6. Therefore, everything still sells, but I can't put everything into my cart really quick and get multiple pieces. If I put 5 pieces in my cart and you put the exact same 5 as me, I submit two seconds ahead of you, I get all, and you get none. Should be a better system than that.

I see where you’re going with this and I rather like it.

 

It’s the way the drops work already though because, ignoring bots, adding a single item to your cart and checking out is always going to be faster than adding more than 1 item.
 

Also, limiting to one piece per order could also hurt you because if someone has a better bot than you, they could use several browsers to put in simultaneous orders, and still beat you out of multiple pieces. 🤷‍♂️ 

[sfilosa]

Are people really using bots? Until the art drops, you have no idea if the art is for sale at $200 or $2,000 or $20,000. I really can't see someone just programming, "buy all".

The last couple art drops (and I am very, very new to this), I waited a minute or two to see what was being sold (if anything) before I picked something that interested me visually and financially. I was able to still pick-up what I wanted after three to five minutes, but I did want to see what others were buying (if anything). Many art drops have zero buyers right away.

And for every Tradd Moore drop, there are probably several hundred that get very little interest/attention immediately. Clearly not where the second and third tier pages are going to bought anytime soon.

 

[SquareChaos]

53 minutes ago, sfilosa said:

Are people really using bots? Until the art drops, you have no idea if the art is for sale at $200 or $2,000 or $20,000. I really can't see someone just programming, "buy all".

The last couple art drops (and I am very, very new to this), I waited a minute or two to see what was being sold (if anything) before I picked something that interested me visually and financially. I was able to still pick-up what I wanted after three to five minutes, but I did want to see what others were buying (if anything). Many art drops have zero buyers right away.

And for every Tradd Moore drop, there are probably several hundred that get very little interest/attention immediately. Clearly not where the second and third tier pages are going to bought anytime soon.

 

Someone may be using some form of automation. If so, for dealer or rep sites, it would likely be a home rolled solution. 

Consider a process that can take keywords as input that simply puts things in a cart - human intervention is then required to click checkout. This would still give a large advantage during a drop for something like SSB, but for most, it likely wouldn't be necessary. 

If you want something more sophisticated for a full automation experience, there are no real constraints against filtering by price or literally any other data field embedded in the page source that is necessary to convey to actual human users what is being offered for sale.

If that page you input keywords for (for example, you know you want issue 3, page 2 of some particular title) happens to drop at $5,000 instead of $1,000 it can be ignored or prompt for approval. It all comes down to how much effort the developer wants to put into it the solution.

Retail sites typically have no incentive to prevent legitimate purchases, even fast ones. When the stakes get high enough, automation will show up.

 

[Nexus]

My two cents...

I don't know if there are bots being used, but I do know that there will always be those who will try to gain an edge. That's just the nature of competition. All I can say is that there isn't a single buyer who gets what they want at every drop. I'm not sure there's anyone who's even successful half the time these days. No one's found a fool-proof way yet to "win" every time. The flip side is that no one "loses" every single time, either. It's win-some, lose-some, across the board, for those who try their luck at drops consistently (I'm not counting those who have been to the site once and are 1-1 or 0-1).

I don't impose limits. But those who have been at this for a while know that their best chances are to order one piece at a time. Those who stock their carts with multiple pieces, usually lose out because so many other buyers have ordered those same pieces individually already. What generally happens is that anyone who is able to get multiple pieces, is able to do so because the initial frenzy has subsided. Those who order indiscriminately and try to pick/choose after the dust has settled, I will cancel their entire order. If someone orders multiple pieces, and is successful in getting all of them, then they are responsible for paying for all of them. It doesn't happen often, but when it does, the piece(s) then go to the next person who requested it.

Lastly...we don't get a lot of flippers buying from us. Whether it's because they know I don't like it, or there's no opportunity, we very rarely see it. In terms of complete issues, I wouldn't sell one to someone I believe is only buying it to break it up. I know some are looking ahead to Tradd's next project. If that were to happen, barring some extraordinary circumstance, I just wouldn't sell another complete issue to them, again.

Maybe that was four cents...

[sfilosa]

Thanks for all the information. In my opinion, it is never the dealer's fault no matter how you sell the pieces. Your job is to maximize the proceeds for your client. Obviously if you weren't doing that, your clients would eventually move to another dealer to rep for them just like some celebrities/athletes move to different management companies.

The one "downside" to a drop, instead of say a "lottery system" is this.

* Assume 20 page drop with 100 collectors wanting a piece.

* If I assume someone else can beat me to a piece (put in cart and submit), my best chance would be to pick one of the least desirable pieces, hoping everyone else is putting the most desirable pieces in their cart first and submitting.

* Kind of a bad way to get a piece from an artist. 

* Therefore, a lottery system would be better but maybe not as good for your client so I wouldn't expect you (or anyone else) to do that.

Just my two cents (definitely less than your four cents).

[ShallowDan]

Thanks for the input, Felix.  I guess the simplest solution is just for Tradd to increase his output!  

[exitmusicblue]

Let's command Tradd to quadruple his output.  Stat!!  

[RBerman]

On 8/23/2020 at 7:38 PM, sfilosa said:

Thanks for all the information. In my opinion, it is never the dealer's fault no matter how you sell the pieces. Your job is to maximize the proceeds for your client. Obviously if you weren't doing that, your clients would eventually move to another dealer to rep for them just like some celebrities/athletes move to different management companies.

The one "downside" to a drop, instead of say a "lottery system" is this.

* Assume 20 page drop with 100 collectors wanting a piece.

* If I assume someone else can beat me to a piece (put in cart and submit), my best chance would be to pick one of the least desirable pieces, hoping everyone else is putting the most desirable pieces in their cart first and submitting.

* Kind of a bad way to get a piece from an artist. 

* Therefore, a lottery system would be better but maybe not as good for your client so I wouldn't expect you (or anyone else) to do that.

Just my two cents (definitely less than your four cents).

The alternative for a high-demand/low supply situation is to go straight to auction. Time is not as sensitive a factor.  Bots don't trump a high bid. Flippers would have to believe that the auction under-estimated values.

[ESeffinga]

Assuming you are only about the well heeled fans ending up with any art they want whenever they want it. Felix has said before they like for art to get into a variety of hands, rather than those of a select few. FWIW.

[vodou]

15 hours ago, RBerman said:

The alternative for a high-demand/low supply situation is to go straight to auction. Time is not as sensitive a factor.  Bots don't trump a high bid. Flippers would have to believe that the auction under-estimated values.

 

14 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Assuming you are only about the well heeled fans ending up with any art they want whenever they want it. Felix has said before they like for art to get into a variety of hands, rather than those of a select few. FWIW.

Yes. Per my recent post in another thread:

Felix is pricing accessibility not exclusivity, that's his rep model. He's actually successfully threading the needle between the two big models. Just ask Shepard Fairey how much insta-sell-through at the bottom end of the product line is really worth versus sitting on quantities price "at market" forever. Or ask Felix or Tradd how the "fine art" (wall power commissions) subsequent sales are working out  

[Will_K]

10 hours ago, vodou said:

Or ask Felix or Tradd how the "fine art" (wall power commissions) subsequent sales are working out

I don't understand what you were implying, could you explain a little more ??  Thanks.

[vodou]

30 minutes ago, Will_K said:

I don't understand what you were implying, could you explain a little more ??  Thanks.

Price the "common" work at a very competitive price, creating "buzz" due to insta-sellout (demand overwhelming supply), which self-perpetuates ongoing sellouts (as long as common pricing remains very competitive), spawning FOMO, which thus spawns huge demand for the "fine art" which is high end commissions at a markedly higher $/sqin. Then...watch the secondary market work to "catch up" which eases the way for moving the primary market up.

[grapeape]

SSB

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SSB

[grapeape]

SSB

[grapeape]

SSB

[exitmusicblue]

Tradd watch continues... going forward if anyone gets any hint of what Marvel series he's tackling next, we're all ears.

Picked up my first two, both Ghost Rider pages.  His work has me interested in black 1969 Dodge Chargers now, uh oh.

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1732143

https://www.comicartfans.com/gallerypiece.asp?piece=1732142