Foolkiller is no Fool

[uclapeterg]

That is pretty much why I stay at the 8.0 - 9.2 range.

 

It is still High Grade, but not as ridiculious when trying to obtain them.

 

When a small crease (whether caught or not) means the difference in a couple of hundred / thousand bucks...

 

it's time to change your thinking.

 

 

 

 

I've been buying in this range from ther very beginning. It has been more sane.

[Foolkiller]

10 cent DCs, mystery in spaces and books I just love to collect is what I'm going to refocus on. Plus you can still get 9.0/9.2 runs on bronze age stuff and feel good about it and not overpay.

 

There's a whole WEALTH of collecting to do out there, and it shouldn't be all about this HG, label chasing, who's got the best whatever book --

 

and I agree with Scott, those books are some spectacular, interesting books -- ECs are another type of book I've also thought about pursuing, and it looks like he'll be chasing some books with real scarcity attached.

[divad]

Why not?

 

Storage issues, books look 100x better in mylar, I'm not convinced the slab is archivally sound... I hate when I buy a book I need for a run and can't store them together because some are slabbed and some are raw. Never selling, so who cares if it's slabbed. Can't see the interior of the book to see if it's accurately graded, easier to carry a box of 100 raw books than 100 slabs, I'm sure there are many more reasons.....

 

Tom,

 

You forgot the most important reason of all - you can't read the damned things when they're slabbed.

 

The only reason to slab is to sell, period You just can't realize the prices otherwise.

 

What I end up with, however is a beautiful collection of high grade mylars missing all of the key issues - which have been slabbed and sold - but hey, I love it!!!

[JuliusSeizure]

How about Al Stoltz and Jeff Weaver?

Yeah, buy lots of comics from Jeff Weaver so he doesn't come back and pitch for the Yankees!

[BassGMan]

That is pretty much why I stay at the 8.0 - 9.2 range.

 

It is still High Grade, but not as ridiculious when trying to obtain them.

 

When a small crease (whether caught or not) means the difference in a couple of hundred / thousand bucks...

 

it's time to change your thinking.

 

 

 

 

I've been buying in this range from ther very beginning. It has been more sane.

 

Same here.

[Sharkey]

comicwiz:

 

I'm not leaving the hobby completely, but I need to reinvent my collection and perhaps strip it down yet again (I've done this before) purge it of any CGC books I don't intend to resell and then start over. There will always be books that I enjoy, and I will always love collecting comics on some level. That's just me. But I've got to find a way to make it fun again, instead of sinking any kind of significant money into it.

 

This is a big part of the reason why I intend to focus on pre-hero books when I start buying again. Restoration isn't as much of an issue and ultra high grade isn't what it's about. These books have true scarcity, so there isn't the same reliance or focus on the numerical grade among collectors. If you own a mid-grade Detective #18, for example, you've got a super sweet, desirable book. If you've got a mid-grade Spider-Man #97, you've got a book that is a great read, but is nothing special from a collector's standpoint because they are a dime a dozen in high grade, let alone mid-grade.

 

Prehero? Nope, sorry, not enough to go around.

Oooh, you mean pre-hero Golden Age.. Phew.

 

 

Scott, this is exactly why I collect pre-hero Marvel (because I like them cheesy stories and to me they are FUN, like old 50s B monster movies), and FK's post reminded me of why I sold off my high grade books a while back. I just didn't see the reason to pay multiples of guide for the difference between an 8.0 and a 9.4 or 9.6. For Pre-hero Marvel, 6.0 is high grade. Plus, as you alluded to before, READING them is what got me interested in collecting in the first place.

 

Will I still get books slabbed? Sure, especially for resale purposes. And I may slab certain key books just to confirm my belief in their grades.

 

Will I still buy slabbed books? Yes, because it's still my best assurance when buying a book online or at an auction.

 

But I will continue to buy raw books at shows. Nothing beats having it in your hand, sniffing that newsprint, and seeing the interior of the comic.

 

And as you taught me in Chicago, ANY book can be restored, it's not just the super high grade, the key books, or the rare books. Run of the mill Silver Age can be restored too. I just don't see any rationale in thinking of them as investments.

[Drummy]

Hey all -

 

Good post. I refrained from posting in the FF 3 thread, which I've read in its entirety, but this seems like a good time to say a few words.

 

First, many of you know - or knew - me as a HG collector. When Ebay and CGC first conspired to bring a buzz back into my comic collecting life, I was completely jazzed up (and pretty naive and dumb, too. Still am, but that's another story.) I first thought I'd go for HG runs of titles I loved as a kid, then I switched over to HG keys, then HG classic covers...then Marvel Silver Age runs...I could never keep a focus because I wanted to much stuff on a limited budget. As I went along I'd buy 9.4/9.6 books and then sell them, refining my collecting interests but still having a good time.

 

(At this point I think it's worthwhile to mention that I have become both a buyer and a seller. I like CGC books for their liquidity but keep reader copies of almost everything for the kid in me. So I'm both a collector and an investor, if you know what I mean, the type of "modern collector" that Bob Storms gripes about.)

 

Anyway, I started getting out of the HG market a few years ago and have almost nothing left of those beautiful books. Several problems conspired against me: 1. HG slabbed books are getting more and more expensive. 2. HG slabbed books often don't quite measure up to my definition of NM, etc., due to grading differences, slab damage, or what have you. There's nothing that made me more ill than ordering a big-money book and then seeing some SCS, wondering whether to return it, etc. 3. There are lots of books being "improved" out there, and it makes me very worried. Pressing, trimming, cleaning, staple replacement, whatever; I simply like the integrity of "real" comics, not improved ones. I almost bought a $20,000 book once, then saw the same comic two grades lower on the Heritage auction archives...the book had clearly (to my eyes, anyway) been cleaned and pressed. CGC didn't note it - perhaps it was undetectable - but I immediately pulled out of the deal and worked something else out instead. That one incident scared the craap out of me.

 

Nowadays my list of trustworthy sellers is pretty slim - Bob, Ted, etc. - but most of all I have lost some faith in CGC's reliability. Therefore, I'm focusing on a mid-grade collection of Marvel keys in the 4.5 - 8.0 range whose "lineages", so to speak, I can track pretty easily. (I would love to get one of Harry's books, for example!). Yes, these comics MAY have been improved along the way, but it's far less likely (and less expensive) than for the super high grades. I still prefer CGC books for the restoration "check" and the liquidity factor, but that's about it. As of this summer I am buying most things raw and having them graded separately...good training for my own grading skills.

 

Nowadays I'm pretty excited about what I buy. I get some OA, which is one-of-a-kind, and some beautiful mid-grade Marvel keys, and that's it. Am I still a collector? You betcha! Has all the "FF 3" debate made me an even more cautious collector, You betcha again.

 

Finally, let me say the things about the current market I'm thankful for:

 

1. This chat board. If CGC has done anything, it has brought me closer to the great people on these boards. And it also allows a place for a small but intelligent section of the collecting community to come together, have fun, share stories and grails, and also to express our concerns and our gripes. Kudos to CGC.

 

2. The Heritage auction history. This is the very best resource for people looking for books that have been "improved". I hope they keep it forever as a check against the scammers. If the archive ever disappears (or these boards), I'll know that all hope is lost for the trusting buyer.

 

3. The honest sellers. You know who you are, and I try to be one as well. Trust drives this hobby - big money or small - and without it there's no hobby anyway.

 

Thanks for the chance to rant!

 

Dan

[shrunkenhead]

I think FFB has it right when he talks about getting into pre-hero GA as a "true" (i.e. non-manufactured) collectible. This week on ebay, I picked up a a nice VG Chesler funnies book, which rates as a Gerber 7 for $25. How can you beat that? I don't see those kinds of deals lasting...I think all these anxieties are going to swing the tide back towards GA, as folks start to look for genuinely scarce items as opposed to manufactured collectibles in the form of 9.6/9.8 slabs. That's not to say that highgrade will cease to be desirable; it won't. But a shift in priorities is, I think, coming. The sorts of anxieties and discouraging factors that we're talking about here, I think we might see widespread in the hobby in a couple of years.

 

It's time we all started looking more at what books we have in those slabs as opposed to what the label reads---and I'm not trying to damn anybody or call anyone out. I've been guilty, too.

[Red Hook]

Super Post, Dan!

 

[Foolkiller]

Dan's post was excellent. I think what this thread points out is that there are a lot of us out there who just are frustrated and have lessened confidence. I know there are others who don't see it my way and don't agree that there's any reason to question the evidence that's put out there. I'm not trying to ram it down their throat, I just hope they won't be saddened when all of the chickens come home to roost.

 

I also want to echo the sentiments that Dan noted -- I think of all the really good friends I've made through these boards including dam60, delekersette, bronzebruce, zeman, hari nadu, redhook and chrisco who are friends of mine now outside of just these boards. And then all the great people like kevin boyd, tom gordon, burntboy, ffb, esquirecomics, jefferykli, tth, october, and so many, many, many others who have become friends just through these boards.

 

And that's why I'll still love the hobby: the people in it. I was reminded today by somebody to still have faith in the collecting community and that not everyone is trying to rip you off, but what I have faith in is that comics can still be a great hobby -- but it is time to fix our collective outlooks.

[skybolt]

What bothers me the most is that a lot of shady dealers probably think of us forum members as trouble makers, where in fact they're the ones causing the problems. I truely believe that if we left things as status quo, and not question the major players in our hobby, then the after effects of all the flood gates opening at once, would completely turn people off to the hobby and leave it for good.

 

This being said, I've finally decided to collect what I preach. I'm systematically going to sell any 9.8 graded copies I won as soon as possible (probably at a small loss). If I don't believe a bronze age book in 9.8 condition is worth 10 times the guide value, then why am I keeping my copy?! Secondly, as Dan mentioned, any book that I've kept in my collection for invetment purposes only, I'm letting go. Thankfully, this does not include 90% of my GA collection, and my Marvel keys like ASM #1 and X-Men #1. I can't imagine letting those babies go.

 

One of the main reasons why I haven't sold some books is because I'm waiting for the movie to come out to build interest. However, what if the movie gets shelved or there's no buzz around it?! There's no reason to keep these books in your collection for years and years for the sole purpose of maybe making some money in the future. There's nothing that pisses me off more than losing money on a book that I didn't really want in the first place. If I'm doing that then I'd rather dabble in the stock market instead.

 

Since I'm not a rich person and can't detect most forms of restoration, I'll be keeping the majority of my books slabbed. If I get married tomorrow and want to buy a house, then I may want to keep my collection as liquid as possible. Since I mainly collect GA books for their covers only, I don't mind keeping them in slabs.

[shrunkenhead]

What bothers me the most is that a lot of shady dealers probably think of us forum members as trouble makers, where in fact they're the ones causing the problems. I truely believe that if we left things as status quo, and not question the major players in our hobby, then the after effects of all the flood gates opening at once, would completely turn people off to the hobby and leave it for good.

 

 

Agreed, there is a major disconnect between many dealers who view us as an annoyance for spotting problems and us, the people who put food on their table (even if it means less food on ours!).

 

Most comic collectors, even those who play around in HG, are not of unlimited resources. If we're buying a book that costs two or three thousand dollars, odds are we're making some kind of sacrifice somewhere else. I know I have on occasion scrimped together pennies or gone out to eat less, or maybe I took a few days less vacation because I wanted to put more discretionary income into my hobby. Dealers who don't recognize these sorts of things, who don't appreciate that we're giving our dollars to a commodity that is COMPLETELY NON-ESSENTIAL just pains me no end. And the fact that we're seen as pests, conspiracists, etc., suggests to me that even more comic buyers are likely to get fed up and cash out.

 

Dealers, if we are conspiracists, then you're our co-conspirators. After all, the conspiracists bought you your car, your vacations, and maybe your home. Your are our comic book suppliers. Kindly do not jerk around, and then insult, your cash suppliers.

[fable]

Its interesting to me, as someone who got into slabs a lot later than you guys, to see how your feeling. Collecting high grade does become massively attractive, and can take away from the appeal of the hobby. Hell, i got into the hobby because i liked to read them, and many of the books i wanted so much are now slabbed in my collection, to avoid gettting ripped off - and stay in the slabs in case i need to sell.

 

I need to reassess.

[Kermit the frog]

comicwiz:

 

I'm not leaving the hobby completely, but I need to reinvent my collection and perhaps strip it down yet again (I've done this before) purge it of any CGC books I don't intend to resell and then start over. There will always be books that I enjoy, and I will always love collecting comics on some level. That's just me. But I've got to find a way to make it fun again, instead of sinking any kind of significant money into it.

 

This is a big part of the reason why I intend to focus on pre-hero books when I start buying again. Restoration isn't as much of an issue and ultra high grade isn't what it's about. These books have true scarcity, so there isn't the same reliance or focus on the numerical grade among collectors. If you own a mid-grade Detective #18, for example, you've got a super sweet, desirable book. If you've got a mid-grade Spider-Man #97, you've got a book that is a great read, but is nothing special from a collector's standpoint because they are a dime a dozen in high grade, let alone mid-grade.

 

FFB

 

please send me your list of amazing spider-man comics below n°100 in mid-grade (or better high grade), would love to buy several dozens of them at a dime...or even at 2 dimes

[FFB]

comicwiz:

 

I'm not leaving the hobby completely, but I need to reinvent my collection and perhaps strip it down yet again (I've done this before) purge it of any CGC books I don't intend to resell and then start over. There will always be books that I enjoy, and I will always love collecting comics on some level. That's just me. But I've got to find a way to make it fun again, instead of sinking any kind of significant money into it.

 

This is a big part of the reason why I intend to focus on pre-hero books when I start buying again. Restoration isn't as much of an issue and ultra high grade isn't what it's about. These books have true scarcity, so there isn't the same reliance or focus on the numerical grade among collectors. If you own a mid-grade Detective #18, for example, you've got a super sweet, desirable book. If you've got a mid-grade Spider-Man #97, you've got a book that is a great read, but is nothing special from a collector's standpoint because they are a dime a dozen in high grade, let alone mid-grade.

 

FFB

 

please send me your list of amazing spider-man comics below n°100 in mid-grade (or better high grade), would love to buy several dozens of them at a dime...or even at 2 dimes

 

Funny. I sold all my Spideys below #150 in San Diego though, except for a nice raw copy of #86 that I kept because I didn't think I'd be able to replace it later if I wanted to. That's a tough book in high grade and it's my favorite late silver age Amazing Spider-Man issue because it was one of the first six silver age issues I got as a kid when I traded away my 1978-79 Topps baseball card set for some comics at the beginning of my back issue collecting phase. Even if I stop collecting silver age books permanently, that's one book I'll always want to own in nice shape.

[Kermit the frog]

comicwiz:

 

I'm not leaving the hobby completely, but I need to reinvent my collection and perhaps strip it down yet again (I've done this before) purge it of any CGC books I don't intend to resell and then start over. There will always be books that I enjoy, and I will always love collecting comics on some level. That's just me. But I've got to find a way to make it fun again, instead of sinking any kind of significant money into it.

 

This is a big part of the reason why I intend to focus on pre-hero books when I start buying again. Restoration isn't as much of an issue and ultra high grade isn't what it's about. These books have true scarcity, so there isn't the same reliance or focus on the numerical grade among collectors. If you own a mid-grade Detective #18, for example, you've got a super sweet, desirable book. If you've got a mid-grade Spider-Man #97, you've got a book that is a great read, but is nothing special from a collector's standpoint because they are a dime a dozen in high grade, let alone mid-grade.

 

FFB

 

please send me your list of amazing spider-man comics below n°100 in mid-grade (or better high grade), would love to buy several dozens of them at a dime...or even at 2 dimes

 

Funny. I sold all my Spideys below #150 in San Diego though, except for a nice raw copy of #86 that I kept because I didn't think I'd be able to replace it later if I wanted to. That's a tough book in high grade and it's my favorite late silver age Amazing Spider-Man issue because it was one of the first six silver age issues I got as a kid when I traded away my 1978-79 Topps baseball card set for some comics at the beginning of my back issue collecting phase. Even if I stop collecting silver age books permanently, that's one book I'll always want to own in nice shape.

 

FFB

congrats on the selling...tough a dime a dozen?!

 

just curious, but which spidey issues are harder to find in nicer shape between n°50 and 100?!

[FFB]

comicwiz:

 

I'm not leaving the hobby completely, but I need to reinvent my collection and perhaps strip it down yet again (I've done this before) purge it of any CGC books I don't intend to resell and then start over. There will always be books that I enjoy, and I will always love collecting comics on some level. That's just me. But I've got to find a way to make it fun again, instead of sinking any kind of significant money into it.

 

This is a big part of the reason why I intend to focus on pre-hero books when I start buying again. Restoration isn't as much of an issue and ultra high grade isn't what it's about. These books have true scarcity, so there isn't the same reliance or focus on the numerical grade among collectors. If you own a mid-grade Detective #18, for example, you've got a super sweet, desirable book. If you've got a mid-grade Spider-Man #97, you've got a book that is a great read, but is nothing special from a collector's standpoint because they are a dime a dozen in high grade, let alone mid-grade.

 

FFB

 

please send me your list of amazing spider-man comics below n°100 in mid-grade (or better high grade), would love to buy several dozens of them at a dime...or even at 2 dimes

 

Funny. I sold all my Spideys below #150 in San Diego though, except for a nice raw copy of #86 that I kept because I didn't think I'd be able to replace it later if I wanted to. That's a tough book in high grade and it's my favorite late silver age Amazing Spider-Man issue because it was one of the first six silver age issues I got as a kid when I traded away my 1978-79 Topps baseball card set for some comics at the beginning of my back issue collecting phase. Even if I stop collecting silver age books permanently, that's one book I'll always want to own in nice shape.

 

FFB

congrats on the selling...tough a dime a dozen?!

 

just curious, but which spidey issues are harder to find in nicer shape between n°50 and 100?!

 

In my own personal experience, they are:

 

#52, 60, 63, 69, and 86.

 

But here are the actual numbers in the census:

 

CGC Census analysis

 

As for the "dime a dozen" comment, I was talking about how easy they are to find in mid- and high grade. I wasn't making a comment about what you have to pay to buy them.

[Sharkey]

 

please send me your list of amazing spider-man comics below n°100 in mid-grade (or better high grade), would love to buy several dozens of them at a dime...or even at 2 dimes

 

Funny. I sold all my Spideys below #150 in San Diego though, except for a nice raw copy of #86 that I kept because I didn't think I'd be able to replace it later if I wanted to. That's a tough book in high grade and it's my favorite late silver age Amazing Spider-Man issue because it was one of the first six silver age issues I got as a kid when I traded away my 1978-79 Topps baseball card set for some comics at the beginning of my back issue collecting phase. Even if I stop collecting silver age books permanently, that's one book I'll always want to own in nice shape.

 

 

Right. You just think Black Widow is hot in her new skin tight leotard, ya perv!!!

[skybolt]

This is a big part of the reason why I intend to focus on pre-hero books when I start buying again. Restoration isn't as much of an issue and ultra high grade isn't what it's about. These books have true scarcity, so there isn't the same reliance or focus on the numerical grade among collectors. If you own a mid-grade Detective #18, for example, you've got a super sweet, desirable book.

 

Just make sure to post these pre-hero books when you get them.

[divad]

Another one of my favorite Spidey's!