How often are books being “disassembled” in our hobby??? 3 3

[Buzzetta]

16 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

This whole conserved thing is new to me. Is it a GLOD? And you joke but its true. Glue and slight colour touch already get blue fir GA, no telling how leniant things will get.

Also, I edited my comment above to ask a question, could you answer it for me?

Yes... I believe it would come back conserved unless they would view it in the way of certain other characteristics where they will put it in a blue label but drop the grade... 

They did that with tape and undocumented signatures. 

However, I see staple replacement as a necessity if you have a book in a holder with rusty staples.  Once those staples begin to rust they will migrate into the paper and cause even bigger problems... so for anyone that has a book with staples that are already rusty, would they want a conserved label 'now' or a stained book with rust migration in a blue label five years from 'now'? 

[William-James88]

21 minutes ago, Buzzetta said:

Yes... I believe it would come back conserved unless they would view it in the way of certain other characteristics where they will put it in a blue label but drop the grade... 

They did that with tape and undocumented signatures. 

However, I see staple replacement as a necessity if you have a book in a holder with rusty staples.  Once those staples begin to rust they will migrate into the paper and cause even bigger problems... so for anyone that has a book with staples that are already rusty, would they want a conserved label 'now' or a stained book with rust migration in a blue label five years from 'now'? 

Thanks! And to answer my own question, that conserved label is indeed something entirely different, its grey. Market wise, what is the impact on value? Is it on par with GLOD and PLOD?

[Buzzetta]

16 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

Thanks! And to answer my own question, that conserved label is indeed something entirely different, its grey. Market wise, what is the impact on value? Is it on par with GLOD and PLOD?

No... at least not for me...

To be fair, not all purple books are the same either.   I always use my Batman 11 as an example.  As I have been told, this is a book that would probably be put into a conserved label if I resubmitted it. (As I have been told).  Now, what's it 'worth' ?  I am sure it is worth more than a purple label book that has pieces added, or professional color touch if there had been a major scuff, or if there was part of the cover photocopies and added in if a section was torn off.  Is it worth as much as a blue label 6.5?  Definitely not... but it is definitely more desirable than some other purple label books. 

To do the math... 

I paid $1300 on 1/25/13 from Comiclink.  (The book is not for sale and one of the last things I would ever sell so I don't mind discussing what I paid for it)

Let's take a look at comparable sales around 2013 for a Batman 11 (Using GPA - There were no sales of a 6.5 in 2013)

2012 - Blue Label 6.5 went for $2,750

However, this was before CGC introduced the conserved label.  If I was selling it, I would not be offering it for only half of a blue label book given the desirability of a Batman 11 and the availability.  If I was selling it, I would not let it go for 'half' of the value.  I would seek and probably get more. 

However, if I had an ASM 300 in a purple or conserved label I would take what I could because I could walk around blindfolded at a comic con and stumble into a universal copy of an ASM... 

So, what I am trying to say here is that it depends on the book. 

 

A Tec 27 with Color Touch is certainly going to be worth more than the usual percentage of it's blue label counterpart than a New Mutants 98 with color touch. 

 

 

 

Edited August 1, 2020 by Buzzetta

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

Very interesting and informative.  I knew there were things the looked the other way , but I am definitely surprised at the amount of what they let slide .  Do not get me wrong I completely understand to preserve some of these historical items they do need to be conserved, and that when there is value in something there will always be someone trying to walk the line to squeeze every last penny out of it they can. I guess I just held higher hopes for humanity than this. Which more and more I have come to realize just is not the case.

Edited August 1, 2020 by onlyweaknesskryptonite

[Buzzetta]

30 minutes ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Very interesting and informative.  I knew there were things the looked the other way , but I am definitely surprised at the amount of what they let slide .  Do not get me wrong I completely understand to preserve some of these historical items they do need to be conserved, and that when there is value in something there will always be someone trying to walk the line to squeeze every last penny out of it they can. I guess I just held higher hopes for humanity than this. Which more and more I have come to realize just is not the case.

You also have to remember that the standards of all hobbies and collectables are not held to the same level. 

GI Joe figures are not counted as being restored when you replace the O-Ring even when it is not the same gauge as the original Hasbo O-Ring from 1982-1994... why?  Because it is accepted that the black rubber band is in a perpetual state of decomposition and needs to be changed.   However, if you put some paint on it... that is a big no no. 

Comics have their own thing...

Baseball cards have their own thing... centering and registration that is not taken into account on comics. 

However, all of these grading companies are looking to see what the other grading companies are doing even if it is outside their lane.  

 

Don't tell me for a second that Voldemort's crew and their recent changes to their labels was not influenced by how their parent company sees cards.  

Things change... it happens. 

[James J Johnson]

On 7/27/2020 at 8:07 PM, Buzzetta said:

Well that is a half hour of my life I will never get back.

Wrong! You can get that half hour back, for at least 6 months anyway, by adjusting your clocks 1 and a half hours back instead of only an hour back for daylight savings time this Fall..   

[badback83]

2 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

No... at least not for me...

To be fair, not all purple books are the same either.   I always use my Batman 11 as an example.  As I have been told, this is a book that would probably be put into a conserved label if I resubmitted it. (As I have been told).  Now, what's it 'worth' ?  I am sure it is worth more than a purple label book that has pieces added, or professional color touch if there had been a major scuff, or if there was part of the cover photocopies and added in if a section was torn off.  Is it worth as much as a blue label 6.5?  Definitely not... but it is definitely more desirable than some other purple label books. 

To do the math... 

I paid $1300 on 1/25/13 from Comiclink.  (The book is not for sale and one of the last things I would ever sell so I don't mind discussing what I paid for it)

Let's take a look at comparable sales around 2013 for a Batman 11 (Using GPA - There were no sales of a 6.5 in 2013)

2012 - Blue Label 6.5 went for $2,750

However, this was before CGC introduced the conserved label.  If I was selling it, I would not be offering it for only half of a blue label book given the desirability of a Batman 11 and the availability.  If I was selling it, I would not let it go for 'half' of the value.  I would seek and probably get more. 

However, if I had an ASM 300 in a purple or conserved label I would take what I could because I could walk around blindfolded at a comic con and stumble into a universal copy of an ASM... 

So, what I am trying to say here is that it depends on the book. 

 

A Tec 27 with Color Touch is certainly going to be worth more than the usual percentage of it's blue label counterpart than a New Mutants 98 with color touch. 

 

 

 

She’s a beaut!

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, William-James88 said:

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

No problem and if you are patient enough and CCG is looking for additional revenue streams, there'll probably be nothing left in the Restoration bucket by the time it's all said and done.  

This whole conserved thing is new to me. Is it a GLOD? And you joke but its true. Glue and slight colour touch already get blue fir GA, no telling how leniant things will get.

No, a Conserved book comes in one of those hybrid blue/grey labels.  

I believe the rationale was that they wanted to separate Conserved from Restored because conserving a book meant that you was doing something positive and to the book in order to extend the life of the book, whereas restoration really does nothing to the book except to improve its appearance for purposes of obtaining a higher grade.  I wonder where that leaves pressing then as it certainly does not extend the life of a book and is done only for pure upgrade purposes.  I guess that's why they call it "maximization of potential" for everybody involved in the game and simply leave it in a blue slab.   

As for color touch and glue receiving blue labels in the case of GA books from the get go, these are definitely the exception, rather than the rule and only applies in very limited cases where there are very very small or a tiny amount of glue or color touch.  Anymore than a tiny amount even for a GA book would end up with the book being placed in a PLOD slab at the time.  Perfect example being the Church copy of Adeventure Comics 40 which came back in PLOD identified with very small amount of color touch and glue on spine of cover and ended up selling only at a huge discount to condition guide.  Yet, the Church copy of More Fun 52 has something like only a tiny amount of color touch and glue on the spine and hence came back in a blue label and ended up selling for a nice premium to condition guide at the time.  

 

2 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Also, I edited my comment above to ask a question, could you answer it for me?

 

3 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Edit: wait, that means that of I have an old blue label (say around 2010) of a GA book witj staples replaced and have it cracked pressed and graded, it would come back in a conservef label?

Yes indeed, if you are getting bored with playing the CPR game, you can also have your former restored books join in the fun as long as you are willing to pay the price to have your book regraded and reslabbed.  Likewise, if you have any of those ubiquitous mid-grade copies of Cookville, Eldon, or Harold Curtis books, you can also send these back in for a fee of course, and have then regraded and reslabbed as full pedigree books in those nice new CGC Pedigree labelled slabs.  Makes perfect business sense since CCG is a business after all, and why in the world would they want to make money off a book only once when they can come up with a never ending series of changes to ensure that the CGC generation of OCD collectors will keep sending the exact same book back in time and time again.  

 

2 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Thanks! And to answer my own question, that conserved label is indeed something entirely different, its grey. Market wise, what is the impact on value? Is it on par with GLOD and PLOD?

Most definitely not as PLOD books will generally only sell for huge discounts to condition guide with the odd exception for truly rare books like some of the Centaurs or in-demand GA books like Action 13 or Cap 3 which consistently sells for multiples or premiums to condition guide even when in Restored condition.  The pecking order when it comes to valuation would be the blue unrestored books on top and the PLOD's on the bottom.  I believe the hybrid blue/grey Conserved books tends to sell for more than the GLOD's, but not 100% sure about this and I believe it most likely depends on what was done to the book in these 2 cases.  All I can say is that I have seen many Conserved GA books sell for over condition guide (or at least the ones that I want ) whereas this definitely would not have been the case in the past when they were in PLOD's and did not have the Conserved labels out yet.  Nowadays, the astute collector will knowingly pay more for these particular PLOD books knowing full well they will no long being PLOD's once they send them back in for regrading and reslabbing.  

[427Impaler]

Book disassembly is not for the faint of heart, particularly on GA books with fragile spines and any improperly pressed book that has the staples sunk.  Blown out staple holes are pretty common in those circumstances.

I’m a big fan of conservation for books that can benefit from it.  Done properly it can extend the life of a collectible considerably.  
 

As far as how well Conserved books do financially that remains to be seen, not a ton of sales data, and the CGC label is still fairly new.  Interesting fact is if you have a book with a married wrap after being conserved it gets the new Conserved label with notation of the marriage.

Recently sold my Conserved AF15 2.5, I would consider the conservation Moderate and the book had a married CF, ended up selling at approximately 70% of current blue label GPA.  
 

 

 

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

4 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

Yes... I believe it would come back conserved unless they would view it in the way of certain other characteristics where they will put it in a blue label but drop the grade... 

They did that with tape and undocumented signatures. 

However, I see staple replacement as a necessity if you have a book in a holder with rusty staples.  Once those staples begin to rust they will migrate into the paper and cause even bigger problems... so for anyone that has a book with staples that are already rusty, would they want a conserved label 'now' or a stained book with rust migration in a blue label five years from 'now'? 

CGC has told me that their holder prevents foxing from spreading. Not true for rust migration?

[James J Johnson]

1 hour ago, 427Impaler said:

particularly on GA books with fragile spines and any improperly pressed book that has the staples sunk.  

 

[Buzzetta]

21 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

CGC has told me that their holder prevents foxing from spreading. Not true for rust migration?

I would not think so as you are trapping the rusty staple in the slab with the book.  The slabs are not airtight so oxidation can continue.  This was demonstrated once before when someone put their slabs in a fireproof safe.  The chemicals in a fireproof safe actually expedite oxidation. 

[William-James88]

24 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

CGC has told me that their holder prevents foxing from spreading. Not true for rust migration?

I dont think so, slabs are not vacuum sealed.

[427Impaler]

7 minutes ago, James J Johnson said:

 

Oh just wipe it down with Wonderbread and tape it back together.  Good as new!

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

9 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

You also have to remember that the standards of all hobbies and collectables are not held to the same level. 

GI Joe figures are not counted as being restored when you replace the O-Ring even when it is not the same gauge as the original Hasbo O-Ring from 1982-1994... why?  Because it is accepted that the black rubber band is in a perpetual state of decomposition and needs to be changed.   However, if you put some paint on it... that is a big no no. 

Comics have their own thing...

Baseball cards have their own thing... centering and registration that is not taken into account on comics. 

However, all of these grading companies are looking to see what the other grading companies are doing even if it is outside their lane.  

 

Don't tell me for a second that Voldemort's crew and their recent changes to their labels was not influenced by how their parent company sees cards.  

Things change... it happens. 

I do get it. They have to " keep up with the Jones's " and that changes are inevitable.  I like many had just held hopes the changes would be improvements.  Which some are and others not so much.  I also do know that no one is perfect.  We all make mistakes.  Still it is how these are handled. 

New case? Awesome.. Newton Rings.. Definitely Not Awesome!

  Conserved Label? Awesome..  Some of the accepted points of conserved.  Not so much.

Character Labels? Sounds Neat! Putting Restored books into Universal Character Label. No good. 

Instead if fixing what is already in place and refining it to be the Top Tier , Top Notch Grading services they keep introducing NEW more or less cash grabs that add even more issues to their ever growing list.

Do not get me wrong I really love some of CGC. The Registry,  The Census,  Ease of Use. The Cases( minus NR)

DEFINITELY THE BOARDS!!!!!  This has come to be one of my favorite parts of CGC! The amount of Information and Collective Knowledge is Amazing! A platform to discuss ideas, passions, collectibles, comics , almost everything has been enlightening and entertaining.  

Also want to thank you for your contributions as I have seens some of your posts that made me chuckle and have enjoyed seeing some of your collectibles you have shared.  Thank you.

[Lurker89]

There seems to be some debate around pressing. Personally I don't see pressing as resto. If you place a book with a spine roll in between to heavy books to lessen the roll it's not restored. I see machine pressing as a more extreme version of the same thing.

Disassembly and replacing of the staples seems like resto to me but what do I know? (Not much)If that is how it has been done in the GA world forever so be it, after all who doesn't like clean staples. It does seem like a lot of risk to the book, risk I would never take personally.

I have all the respect in the world for the GA community. I lurk in their sales threads and enjoy watching the pieces of history that flow through. I will hopefully someday have a couple GA treasures for my collection.

I'd love to read the preeminent thread on the pressing debate if anyone has a link to thread handy.

[DavidTheDavid]

Skilled pressers are great. Amateurs who leave comics looking like they've been sat on by the Blob, not so much.

[DavidTheDavid]

7 minutes ago, 42-39-56 said:

This isn't what's going on though. Heat and water are added when comics are mechanically pressed.

Are the water and heat still there when the process is done, as color touch is?

Technically, I add energy whenever I hold a comic. And skin cells. 

[THE_BEYONDER]

A pressing debate.....

[Lurker89]

I seem to have opened a can of worms. I am interested in the merits of both sides of the argument.

I'd like to hear other people opinions but I don't want to hijack the thread which is focused on the disassembly of GA books. I also don't want to start a flame war I save that for the other boards I'm a member of.

I lean towards pressing is not restoration. My opinion doesn't really matter though, I've never pressed a book but I have no issue buying pressed books.

 I lean this way because at the end of the process all moisture is no longer present. 

Books with water damage aren't restored they are just damaged.

If the press did anything negative to the book would just be damaged imo. Triming, color touching, tear sealing are substantially adding to or subtracting from the book to alter it fundamentally. A steamy smush is different than those methods in my flawed opinion.

But like I said I don't press books personally. I wouldn't mind CGC pressing and grading a couple books I'll be sending in to them in the near future hopefully they don't eff up my books.