Registered Mail Not As Great As Generally Believed. 0

[Tony S]

Consider this a public service announcement:

Registered Mail is NOT near as great as presented or generally believed.  Registered Mail CAN and DOES get lost.  USPS - because the items insured are collectibles - CAN and WILL do everything possible to avoid paying a claim for a lost package.  

I submitted 12 books to CGC for a client back in December 2019. The books were graded and shipped back to him via Registered Mail insured for $500 in January 2020.  There was a problem delivering - conflicting accounts as to why..  Most likely his address not on his mailbox.  But might of been just because he wasn't at home at the time of the attempted delivery. So USPS held the package a couple of weeks and then marked it for return. That is the end of tracking information. The package was never returned to CGC. Never delivered to the owner. Nothing in USPS tracking since marked for return. 

Initially a  request was made by CGC to USPS to look for the package. After a few weeks of no reply from USPS, a claim was filed by CGC  USPS was unable find the package and USPS denied paying the claim. Said they wanted actual receipts showing what the owner paid for the books. 

USPS's own website says that for proof of value you can submit statements from reputable dealers. Being one myself, I submitted such with the first claim. As already said, the claim was denied and closed out. CGC appealed. This time I submitted another statement of value and  I got the owner of a local comic book store to submit a statement of value. So two dealer statements.  AND  I looked up and printed out recent completed sales on eBay of the each and every exact book (CGC and grade)  All of this submitted as proof of value. I also submitted proof - actual receipts - of the pressing costs and the CGC grading costs.  

Denied again.  The owner appealed. USPS still wants receipts showing what he paid for the books. These are collectibles. What was paid for the books does not represent  their value.  What these books  routinely sell for is their value. And with CGC grading and encapsulation, the books become much more ....monetized. It is easy to see what a CGC book routinely sells for.  I own books I paid 12 cents for in 1968 that are worth thousands of dollars now. Not only is 12 cents not a reasonable settlement if USPS looses the insured package said books are shipped in, NEITHER do I have the RECEIPTS for those 12 cent purchases 50 years ago. 

As of this moment, USPS can't find the package and wants receipts for what the owner paid for the books to consider an insurance payout.  Over six months since the books went missing. 

So yeah.... You can forget that Registered Mail is the "gold standard" in shipping.  We pay a premium for Registered mail because it's supposed to be handled with greater care and insurance is available up to $50,000.  But if packages do get lost and insurance claims are denied- or only settled for a maximum of the original purchase price by the owner - what are we paying premium prices for? Perhaps the gold standard is private shipping insurance and UPS. 



 

[kav]

Most cities have some kind of "Call Kurtis" type segment and when the host shows up with a camera crew they usually get results.
Easy to deny stuff when you are anonymous and unknown-a bit harder when you'll be on at 5.

Edited August 3, 2020 by kav

[Tony S]

4 minutes ago, kav said:

Most cities have some kind of "Call Kurtis" type segment and when the host shows up with a camera crew they usually get results.
Easy to deny stuff when you are anonymous and unknown-a bit harder when you'll be on at 5.

That's a great idea. I will suggest it. 

[F For Fake]

So, if the worst happens and USPS won’t play ball, will CGC make him whole? Since they shipped it, are they on the hook?

[LordRahl]

4 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

So, if the worst happens and USPS won’t play ball, will CGC make him whole? Since they shipped it, are they on the hook?

What would CGC be on the hook for? Their job ended when the package made its way into the hands of USPS. FedEx insurance isn't any better, they will do anything in their power to not pay out. Private insurance is the way to go but if you have too many claims, they'll dump you. 

[Robot Man]

Frankly, I would not risk sending of any value through USPS for a while. See the other thread about delays in the mail. Read it carefully...

[F For Fake]

50 minutes ago, LordRahl said:

What would CGC be on the hook for? Their job ended when the package made its way into the hands of USPS. FedEx insurance isn't any better, they will do anything in their power to not pay out. Private insurance is the way to go but if you have too many claims, they'll dump you. 

If I ship something and it doesn’t show up, I’m on the hook for it, regardless of how I shipped it, which service is used, etc. eBay and the buyer don’t care if USPS lost it, I have to take care of it if it doesn’t show up.

I realize CGC isn’t a “seller” in this instance, so the circumstances aren’t directly comparable. Just wasn’t sure if CGC was liable since they were the ones who sent the books out, unless I’m misunderstanding. I’m certainly not saying they SHOULD be held accountable, I was just curious if they WOULD be, hence the question. Crummy situation for all involved, for sure, and I certainly hope it is resolved in favor of the owner of the books.

[LordRahl]

1 hour ago, Robot Man said:

Frankly, I would not risk sending of any value through USPS for a while. See the other thread about delays in the mail. Read it carefully...

Problem is there really isn't a better option. FedEx is so bad CGC refuses to ship with them. UPS isn't any better. Collectibles Insurance Services only covers up to 2500 if you ship UPS which isn't much. I had them leave a 5 figure book on my doorstep without getting a signature even though one was required, and that was when I still lived in an apartment building. Luckily it didn't get stolen but that was by the grace of God and not because UPS was doing their job.

[LordRahl]

40 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

If I ship something and it doesn’t show up, I’m on the hook for it, regardless of how I shipped it, which service is used, etc. eBay and the buyer don’t care if USPS lost it, I have to take care of it if it doesn’t show up.

I realize CGC isn’t a “seller” in this instance, so the circumstances aren’t directly comparable. Just wasn’t sure if CGC was liable since they were the ones who sent the books out, unless I’m misunderstanding. I’m certainly not saying they SHOULD be held accountable, I was just curious if they WOULD be, hence the question. Crummy situation for all involved, for sure, and I certainly hope it is resolved in favor of the owner of the books.

Yeah two completely different scenarios there. One, you're the seller and CGC isn't and second you're talking about an ebay policy, not something that would be enforceable in court. I'm not a lawyer but I can't imagine CGC could be held liable after the books have been proven to be handed off to a shipper.

[Math Teacher]

After reading this scenario, I'm more inclined to say that CGC should pay the owner of the books the declared value s/he listed, and then CGC should fight with the USPS. The owner should assist CGC as best as s/he can.

Think about this. I send five books to be pressed and cleaned. After these services are completed, the presser sends the books back to me. Unfortunately, they get lost and never arrive. Wouldn't you expect the presser to make good on this loss? Why should I have to fight with the USPS? I didn't ship the books - the presser did. This is why companies carry insurance.

As stupid as this may sound, try contacting your congressperson or your senator. It's amazing what can happen when you get a member of Congress involved. Are you guaranteed satisfaction? Of course not. But what's the worst thing that could happen? You don't get paid for your books, which is what is currently going on. Yes, I know the USPS is not part of the federal government, but again, what is the worst thing that can happen? You don't get paid for the books.

[Topnotchman]

The post office absolutely will deny an insurance claim if you are unable to provide a paid receipt. 6-7 years ago I sent a box registered mail of around 100 books to cgc and paid for an insured value around $17,000.00. It was lost at the Atlanta airport and they denied the the claim unless I could provide itemized paid receipts for each individual book.  They wanted 100 receipts. My collectibles insurance was going to pay the claim in full based on collectible value at the three month point.  The box was eventually found in Atlanta.  I have never paid for insurance to any usps mail since as it’s a scam.  I use collectible insurance as a safety net. Knock, I’ve never made a claim since than either. 

[Dr. Love]

Private insurance (Collectibles) and FedEx is the way to go.  At least Collectibles will pay out - certainly on the first claim, and maybe beyond that.  Anecdotal evidence is thin beyond the first claim.

CGC will ship via Fedex - I have a private account and specify that they use it, and they do.  CGC will not allow FedEx shipments to be redirected in CA.  When things are going bad with a delivery I've had great service from FedEx once I escalate to management.  I keep my temper, get a name and call back number, and become the squeaky wheel.

Signature service is either hit or miss or just miss right now.

 

[Tony S]

1 hour ago, Joe Ankenbauer said:

After reading this scenario, I'm more inclined to say that CGC should pay the owner of the books the declared value s/he listed, and then CGC should fight with the USPS. The owner should assist CGC as best as s/he can.

Think about this. I send five books to be pressed and cleaned. After these services are completed, the presser sends the books back to me. Unfortunately, they get lost and never arrive. Wouldn't you expect the presser to make good on this loss? Why should I have to fight with the USPS? I didn't ship the books - the presser did. This is why companies carry insurance.

As stupid as this may sound, try contacting your congressperson or your senator. It's amazing what can happen when you get a member of Congress involved. Are you guaranteed satisfaction? Of course not. But what's the worst thing that could happen? You don't get paid for your books, which is what is currently going on. Yes, I know the USPS is not part of the federal government, but again, what is the worst thing that can happen? You don't get paid for the books.

Virtually every Senator and Member of Congress have a link on their website that say "help with Federal agency". So what I've highlighted in bold is a good idea. I'll pass it on. USPS is hybrid Federal agency, Congress has oversight. 

IMHO, CGC is not responsible. Their responsibility ended when they shipped the books insured for the declared value. This is on the post office. To CGC's credit, they did try to help with the tracking and claim process. 

[LordRahl]

3 hours ago, Dr. Love said:

Private insurance (Collectibles) and FedEx is the way to go.  At least Collectibles will pay out - certainly on the first claim, and maybe beyond that.  Anecdotal evidence is thin beyond the first claim.

CGC will ship via Fedex - I have a private account and specify that they use it, and they do.  CGC will not allow FedEx shipments to be redirected in CA.  When things are going bad with a delivery I've had great service from FedEx once I escalate to management.  I keep my temper, get a name and call back number, and become the squeaky wheel.

Signature service is either hit or miss or just miss right now.

 

This isn't my experience. They do not ship to CA, not just redirect within CA. From their website when I submit a book and am on the shipping page "CGC has temporarily suspended shipments via FedEx to CA. An alternate shipping carrier must be selected". I also have my own account with FedEx and have called them trying to use it, they did not allow it. If you are able to get shipments via FedEx, I'd love to know who you talked to and what you told them in order to allow this.

[Action252Kid]

Man, horror story.  As you noted, private insurance is really the "gold standard," if there is one.  For my peace of mind, I always go with USPS Express Mail, and have found that to be the most reliable (again, with private insurance on the package).  The post office, with all their faults, does seem to really try to get Express packages there on time (since they have to give you a full refund if it's late.. which does happen maybe 5% of the time).  Registered, even before hearing this story, has always driven me crazy because the tracking is AWFUL and it always takes a week plus for registered packages to get to me.  

And as Dr. Love noted.. signature service is really not what you think you're paying for these days (my mailman has been dumping signature-required packages under the mailbox since covid started, and it's scary to think what would happen if something ever went missing, since it seems like none of these packages are ever getting signed for).

[alexgross.com]

13 hours ago, Tony S said:

Consider this a public service announcement:

Registered Mail is NOT near as great as presented or generally believed.  Registered Mail CAN and DOES get lost.  USPS - because the items insured are collectibles - CAN and WILL do everything possible to avoid paying a claim for a lost package.  

I submitted 12 books to CGC for a client back in December 2019. The books were graded and shipped back to him via Registered Mail insured for $500 in January 2020.  There was a problem delivering - conflicting accounts as to why..  Most likely his address not on his mailbox.  But might of been just because he wasn't at home at the time of the attempted delivery. So USPS held the package a couple of weeks and then marked it for return. That is the end of tracking information. The package was never returned to CGC. Never delivered to the owner. Nothing in USPS tracking since marked for return. 

Initially a  request was made by CGC to USPS to look for the package. After a few weeks of no reply from USPS, a claim was filed by CGC  USPS was unable find the package and USPS denied paying the claim. Said they wanted actual receipts showing what the owner paid for the books. 

USPS's own website says that for proof of value you can submit statements from reputable dealers. Being one myself, I submitted such with the first claim. As already said, the claim was denied and closed out. CGC appealed. This time I submitted another statement of value and  I got the owner of a local comic book store to submit a statement of value. So two dealer statements.  AND  I looked up and printed out recent completed sales on eBay of the each and every exact book (CGC and grade)  All of this submitted as proof of value. I also submitted proof - actual receipts - of the pressing costs and the CGC grading costs.  

Denied again.  The owner appealed. USPS still wants receipts showing what he paid for the books. These are collectibles. What was paid for the books does not represent  their value.  What these books  routinely sell for is their value. And with CGC grading and encapsulation, the books become much more ....monetized. It is easy to see what a CGC book routinely sells for.  I own books I paid 12 cents for in 1968 that are worth thousands of dollars now. Not only is 12 cents not a reasonable settlement if USPS looses the insured package said books are shipped in, NEITHER do I have the RECEIPTS for those 12 cent purchases 50 years ago. 

As of this moment, USPS can't find the package and wants receipts for what the owner paid for the books to consider an insurance payout.  Over six months since the books went missing. 

So yeah.... You can forget that Registered Mail is the "gold standard" in shipping.  We pay a premium for Registered mail because it's supposed to be handled with greater care and insurance is available up to $50,000.  But if packages do get lost and insurance claims are denied- or only settled for a maximum of the original purchase price by the owner - what are we paying premium prices for? Perhaps the gold standard is private shipping insurance and UPS. 



 

this may be too late to be useful, but i had a registered mail package stolen around 7-8 years ago after my mail carrier forged my signature and left it in my mailbox while i was on vacation. when i filed a claim it was denied too because usps showed as delivered and signed for. 

ultimately after my appeal was also denied i was able to contact the postmaster inspector general. they got on the case and got it taken care of. they seem to be the ones with power there when they screw up on a high level such as this. if you get ahold of their office they may be more responsive than what you've had so far. any with all the drama there right now, probably not.  sorry for your loss- 

[alexgross.com]

5 hours ago, LordRahl said:

This isn't my experience. They do not ship to CA, not just redirect within CA. From their website when I submit a book and am on the shipping page "CGC has temporarily suspended shipments via FedEx to CA. An alternate shipping carrier must be selected". I also have my own account with FedEx and have called them trying to use it, they did not allow it. If you are able to get shipments via FedEx, I'd love to know who you talked to and what you told them in order to allow this.

agreed. cgc no longer uses fedex to ship to CA for some reason. very frustrating. 

[kav]

This country is simply screaming for a secure national delivery service of some kind.  

[Math Teacher]

16 hours ago, Topnotchman said:

The post office absolutely will deny an insurance claim if you are unable to provide a paid receipt.

This is not necessarily true. I sold Bart Simpson Comics #1 - #100, Simpsons Summer Shindig #1 - #9, and Simpsons Winter Wingdings #1 - #9 for $275 on Ebay. One box did not arrive. I refunded the buyer $92, and then I filed the claim for that amount with the post office. In less than ten days, I received a check for $101, which was the $92 claim and a $9 refund on the shipping.

My guess is that the Post Office figured it was not worth quibbling over $100, so they just paid the claim. However, I'm sure the result would have been different had the package contained Amazing Spider-Man #1, and the claim amount was $6500+. I absolutely could not provide any documentation. I purchased it over 40 years ago from a guy in Des Moines, IA, for $300 cash. He certainly did not give me a receipt, but even if he had, and had I kept it, it would not be fair to claim that the refund should only be $300.

Maybe if this situation happens to a wealthy individual, perhaps he could sue the Post Office. It's not like their are numerous frivolous lawsuits filed every day (such as governors suing mayors for requiring masks in their city). If you put this type of evidence in front of a judge, who knows what the result would be.

[JazzMan]

Long gone are the days when you could send the Hope diamond via USPS registered mail.