Flip-flopping values between two books over the years: Any more examples? 1 1

[F For Fake]

On 8/7/2020 at 8:40 PM, Ryan. said:

I feel like I remember ASM 298 being the biggest book in the 298-299-300 triumvirate for a while. 

This for sure. I was in middle school, and all of the gang wanted the first Todd McFarlane, nobody much cared about Venom yet. I traded a buddy my 298 for his 300, and he was thrilled.

[Von Cichlid]

3 hours ago, Gatsby77 said:

This one too.

As a collector in the 1990s, 108 (first Byrne) was *the* key book of the early 100s. Nobody cared about the Starjammers and every time I looked at the cover of 107 I wished it were 108 (the far more key and expensive issue).

But now it seems the hobby's literally "first appearance or bust" - artist books or key storylines don't matter nearly as much.

I collected the first time in the late 80's to mid 90's and I was shocked at how things had changed when I got back into the hobby around 5 years ago.  I had kept my old collection (thankfully) but I was surprised to see which issues wound up being valuable and which ones I thought were still valuable but where not near what I thought they would be.

The losers from my old collection were generally issues from that era who were prized at the time for art or story lines.

X-Men has a ton like mutant massacre (maybe not 212 it is still a first), X-tinction agenda, 248, 162, 205, etc.  These issues used to have a significant premium on them and now they are roughly the same as filler/run issues.  Run issues from the Byrne/Claremont era strill had value, but they had stagnated relative to growth in other areas.  Really, anything that was hot due to Wolverine alone had stagnated.  This goes for Captain America annual 8, Spider-Man vs Wolverine, etc.   

The Punisher stuff was hit pretty bad as well.  There is some great stuff in the limited series, the earlier regular series, and earlier PWJ.  The lack of first appearances though has really forced that material off of people's radar.

It was also disappointing to see that the Miller DD stuff outside 168 was stagnant.

 

I did have some winners though:

Marvel Winter Special 8 (this was pure drek at the time), multiple X-Men 221's, DD 256, multiple 98's.

Hulk 340 did really well over that span too.  It seems that pre-Spider-Man #1 McFarlane material is the only material from back in the day to still be valuable based on art alone.  

  

[Gatsby77]

20 minutes ago, Von Cichlid said:

I collected the first time in the late 80's to mid 90's and I was shocked at how things had changed when I got back into the hobby around 5 years ago.  I had kept my old collection (thankfully) but I was surprised to see which issues wound up being valuable and which ones I thought were still valuable but where not near what I thought they would be.

The losers from my old collection were generally issues from that era who were prized at the time for art or story lines.

X-Men has a ton like mutant massacre (maybe not 212 it is still a first), X-tinction agenda, 248, 162, 205, etc.  These issues used to have a significant premium on them and now they are roughly the same as filler/run issues.  Run issues from the Byrne/Claremont era strill had value, but they had stagnated relative to growth in other areas.  Really, anything that was hot due to Wolverine alone had stagnated.  This goes for Captain America annual 8, Spider-Man vs Wolverine, etc.   

The Punisher stuff was hit pretty bad as well.  There is some great stuff in the limited series, the earlier regular series, and earlier PWJ.  The lack of first appearances though has really forced that material off of people's radar.

It was also disappointing to see that the Miller DD stuff outside 168 was stagnant.

 

I did have some winners though:

Marvel Winter Special 8 (this was pure drek at the time), multiple X-Men 221's, DD 256, multiple 98's.

Hulk 340 did really well over that span too.  It seems that pre-Spider-Man #1 McFarlane material is the only material from back in the day to still be valuable based on art alone.  

  

I *loved* X-Men 210-213 (Mutant Massacre) back in the day - ditto X-Men 222 (vs. Sabretooth), Wolverine 10, Punisher # 10 (vs. Daredevil), Punisher War Journal 6-7, etc.

Ghost Rider 1 (1990)'s done fairly well too, with 9.8s now going for $200+.

Weird that it's 10+ years older now than the original (1973) Ghost Rider # 1 was when the Dan Ketch version came out.

[thunsicker]

10 hours ago, Von Cichlid said:

I collected the first time in the late 80's to mid 90's and I was shocked at how things had changed when I got back into the hobby around 5 years ago.  I had kept my old collection (thankfully) but I was surprised to see which issues wound up being valuable and which ones I thought were still valuable but where not near what I thought they would be.

The losers from my old collection were generally issues from that era who were prized at the time for art or story lines.

X-Men has a ton like mutant massacre (maybe not 212 it is still a first), X-tinction agenda, 248, 162, 205, etc.  These issues used to have a significant premium on them and now they are roughly the same as filler/run issues.  Run issues from the Byrne/Claremont era strill had value, but they had stagnated relative to growth in other areas.  Really, anything that was hot due to Wolverine alone had stagnated.  This goes for Captain America annual 8, Spider-Man vs Wolverine, etc.   

The Punisher stuff was hit pretty bad as well.  There is some great stuff in the limited series, the earlier regular series, and earlier PWJ.  The lack of first appearances though has really forced that material off of people's radar.

It was also disappointing to see that the Miller DD stuff outside 168 was stagnant.

 

I did have some winners though:

Marvel Winter Special 8 (this was pure drek at the time), multiple X-Men 221's, DD 256, multiple 98's.

Hulk 340 did really well over that span too.  It seems that pre-Spider-Man #1 McFarlane material is the only material from back in the day to still be valuable based on art alone.  

  

And this is precisely why I wince when people say you can’t go wrong by buying the keys and holding them.   In my time collecting it’s been you can’t go wrong buying early SA Marvels and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Barks ducks and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Miller Daredevil/New X-Men/New Teen Titans and holding them to you cant go wrong buying independents and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying punisher and wolverine issues and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Dark Knight and Watchmen and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying foil covers and new #1’s and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying first appearances and holding them.  Somehow every time people are sure that the latest collecting focus is the only obvious one that will be profitable going forward.

Edited August 10, 2020 by thunsicker

[Von Cichlid]

1 hour ago, thunsicker said:

And this is precisely why I wince when people say you can’t go wrong by buying the keys and holding them.   In my time collecting it’s been you can’t go wrong buying early SA Marvels and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Barks ducks and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Miller Daredevil/New X-Men/New Teen Titans and holding them to you cant go wrong buying independents and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying punisher and wolverine issues and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Dark Knight and Watchmen and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying foil covers and new #1’s and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying first appearances and holding them.  Somehow every time people are sure that the latest collecting focus is the only obvious one that will be profitable going forward.

I think that is mostly true, but you are still safer in buying stuff that had value due to actually being loved versus pure speculation value.

Miller Daredevil, early Claremont X-men, and other classic art/storyline issues have gone up and down over the years, but they had genuine objective realized value at points due to people really wanting them in their collection.  It stands to reason they may become valuable again, or will retain some of what they had.

Now, the gimmick stuff from past '93 that was pure speculation like Turok 1, all the foil die cut stuff, etc never had real value.  It was speculated on, bombed, and that was that.  No one ever loved it. 

That is what primarily steers me away from buying moderns.  Yeah some of the variant covers do look nice, but I think most are purchased by those who are too old to ever fall in love with it like they would able to as a kid.  It is for that reason that I think the older material still has much more staying power.    

 

[WolverineX]

6 hours ago, Von Cichlid said:

I think that is mostly true, but you are still safer in buying stuff that had value due to actually being loved versus pure speculation value.

Miller Daredevil, early Claremont X-men, and other classic art/storyline issues have gone up and down over the years, but they had genuine objective realized value at points due to people really wanting them in their collection.  It stands to reason they may become valuable again, or will retain some of what they had.

Now, the gimmick stuff from past '93 that was pure speculation like Turok 1, all the foil die cut stuff, etc never had real value.  It was speculated on, bombed, and that was that.  No one ever loved it. 

That is what primarily steers me away from buying moderns.  Yeah some of the variant covers do look nice, but I think most are purchased by those who are too old to ever fall in love with it like they would able to as a kid.  It is for that reason that I think the older material still has much more staying power.    

 

Yes,  this is why I think x 94 is so undervalued... the Claremont run was legendary.  Just a superb story if you crack the slab and actually read the book. 

 

[badback83]

This is probably going to sound wonky and I don’t have sales data to back it up.  But, I felt that about 10 -12 years ago, Hulk 181 and Green Lantern 76 were battling it out for king of the Bronze Age.  Especially starting around 2006-07, I kinda thought that every other year they’d flip on which one brought a premium.  One year 181 was bringing bigger money, the next 76 would be hot.  

[RCheli]

A lot of the keys of the 80s and early 90s were creator driven -- so first Miller Daredevil or Byrne or first Simonson Thor. Today, it's more character driven, so DD #168 is much more valuable than #158 and Thor #337 matters because of Beta Ray Bill more than the Simonson.

[Von Cichlid]

13 hours ago, Wolverinex said:

Yes,  this is why I think x 94 is so undervalued... the Claremont run was legendary.  Just a superb story if you crack the slab and actually read the book. 

 

Like many people probably, I experienced that from Classic X-Men 2.  My 11 year old brain soaked up every bit of it.  I haven't looked at it in years and i still remember Thunderbird burning his leg in the Danger Room and the "press me" gadget that made Nefaria's bad guys appear.  Wolverine and Iceman getting into the fight at the beginning.  There was no way I could afford a real copy at the time, but those Classic X-Men were like owning a time machine back in the day.  I read that series more than any other for sure.

I do own a raw 94 now, but there is no way I am taking it out and reading it.  I just look at it in its Mylite and I try to imagine how thrilled that 11 year version of me would be if he could own what I own now.

There was a lot of great times to read comics, but I still feel blessed to have gotten into them the first time in that late 80's early 90's time frame.  There were no less that 15 different titles easy that I loved being able to grab each month.

ASM, Web, Spectacular, DD, Punisher, PWJ, X-Men, Classic X-Men, Wolverine, X-Factor was decent at times, Liefield New Mutants was the new thing, Lim Silver Surfer and Captain America was cool (always loved Streets of Poison).  Marvel Tales was cool.  Marvel Comics Presents had its moments.  FF and Avengers may have been lame then, but otherwise there was just so much that Marvel was doing right before that exodus to Image.  Detective and Batman wasn't too shabby either from that period.          

[WolverineX]

18 minutes ago, Von Cichlid said:

Like many people probably, I experienced that from Classic X-Men 2.  My 11 year old brain soaked up every bit of it.  I haven't looked at it in years and i still remember Thunderbird burning his leg in the Danger Room and the "press me" gadget that made Nefaria's bad guys appear.  Wolverine and Iceman getting into the fight at the beginning.  There was no way I could afford a real copy at the time, but those Classic X-Men were like owning a time machine back in the day.  I read that series more than any other for sure.

I do own a raw 94 now, but there is no way I am taking it out and reading it.  I just look at it in its Mylite and I try to imagine how thrilled that 11 year version of me would be if he could own what I own now.

There was a lot of great times to read comics, but I still feel blessed to have gotten into them the first time in that late 80's early 90's time frame.  There were no less that 15 different titles easy that I loved being able to grab each month.

ASM, Web, Spectacular, DD, Punisher, PWJ, X-Men, Classic X-Men, Wolverine, X-Factor was decent at times, Liefield New Mutants was the new thing, Lim Silver Surfer and Captain America was cool (always loved Streets of Poison).  Marvel Tales was cool.  Marvel Comics Presents had its moments.  FF and Avengers may have been lame then, but otherwise there was just so much that Marvel was doing right before that exodus to Image.  Detective and Batman wasn't too shabby either from that period.          

Agreed.  Chris Claremont was a genius.  Love his X-men story lines the most.  This is why I love X94 more than GSX1 even though I'm a Wolverine fan.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Wolverinex

[William-James88]

23 hours ago, thunsicker said:

And this is precisely why I wince when people say you can’t go wrong by buying the keys and holding them.   In my time collecting it’s been you can’t go wrong buying early SA Marvels and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Barks ducks and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Miller Daredevil/New X-Men/New Teen Titans and holding them to you cant go wrong buying independents and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying punisher and wolverine issues and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying Dark Knight and Watchmen and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying foil covers and new #1’s and holding them to you can’t go wrong buying first appearances and holding them.  Somehow every time people are sure that the latest collecting focus is the only obvious one that will be profitable going forward.

Oh man, Miller's DD has been going DOWN. Even the biggest key:

It's not like all collectors have infinite amount of money. If something else is hot, they will just gravitate towards something else, selling off what is not hot and so some books will go down while others go up. I would be very curious to see how well Ultimate Fallout 4 does in 20 years from now.

When it comes to first appearances, you still have to rely on scarcity and demand. Because saying a blanket statement that you can't go wrong with first appearance will leave you like this. 

Sold May 2016:

 

Sold July 2020:

 

And I wont leave the OP hanging, if you want to get a headache, check the fluctuating prices on the 3 books battling to be the main book to own for Kamala Khan.

[William-James88]

Just curious, between Detective Comics 647 and 648, which one has the market settled on as the book to own for now?

[Von Cichlid]

56 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

Oh man, Miller's DD has been going DOWN. Even the biggest key:

It's not like all collectors have infinite amount of money. If something else is hot, they will just gravitate towards something else, selling off what is not hot and so some books will go down while others go up. I would be very curious to see how well Ultimate Fallout 4 does in 20 years from now.

When it comes to first appearances, you still have to rely on scarcity and demand. Because saying a blanket statement that you can't go wrong with first appearance will leave you like this. 

Sold May 2016:

 

Sold July 2020:

 

And I wont leave the OP hanging, if you want to get a headache, check the fluctuating prices on the 3 books battling to be the main book to own for Kamala Khan.

Man, an Iron Fist 14 9.6 would pull more than that Marvel Premiere 15 these days.

[William-James88]

22 minutes ago, Von Cichlid said:

Man, an Iron Fist 14 9.6 would pull more than that Marvel Premiere 15 these days.

Makes sense. Wolverine is a far more popular character and I'd expect his arch nemesis to be worth way more than a character few people ever cared about and that only got hype for a show that turned out disappointing.

[oldrover]

15 hours ago, William-James88 said:

Oh man, Miller's DD has been going DOWN. Even the biggest key:

It's not like all collectors have infinite amount of money. If something else is hot, they will just gravitate towards something else, selling off what is not hot and so some books will go down while others go up. I would be very curious to see how well Ultimate Fallout 4 does in 20 years from now.

When it comes to first appearances, you still have to rely on scarcity and demand. Because saying a blanket statement that you can't go wrong with first appearance will leave you like this. 

Sold May 2016:

 

Sold July 2020:

 

And I wont leave the OP hanging, if you want to get a headache, check the fluctuating prices on the 3 books battling to be the main book to own for Kamala Khan.

I attribute some of the Iron Fist (and even DD) flux to the advent, and demise, of the Netflix series.

[William-James88]

1 hour ago, oldrover said:

I attribute some of the Iron Fist (and even DD) flux to the advent, and demise, of the Netflix series.

I attribute 100% of Iron Fist's flux to how unpopular his Netflix series became. Perfect example of pure hype in the market. I am wondering now if the Inhumans had a similar rise and fall in prices 

Edited August 11, 2020 by William-James88