Official TMNT Speculation Thread 14 14

[pubmonkey]

16 hours ago, ectocooler said:

It also has the benefit of having first appearances of Bebop/Rocksteady.

I thought we had established their first appearances were in issue #2... aren't they only in human form in #1? 

To be honest the advent of this issue harked the end of my TMNT collecting back in the day. At this point the regular series was no longer drawn by Eastman/Laird (really big turn off for me) and I disliked the art/story in TMNT Adventures. I held on a couple more issues and then stopped looking at them completely.

[Jesse-Lee]

5 minutes ago, pubmonkey said:

I thought we had established their first appearances were in issue #2... aren't they only in human form in #1?

This is correct, but many people - CGC included, it's noted on the slab - consider #1 the first appearance of Bebop and Rocksteady, even though they aren't named in the issue and they're in their human forms for the whole issue. It's not until 2 that they have names and their mutated form. Drives me nuts that #1 is considered the first appearance.

[pubmonkey]

We should also dissect the printing versions of #1 for the speculation benefit of those about to plunge into purchasing these books:

There are 4 versions: 2 in USA (direct/newstand), 2 in Canada (direct/newstand).

Direct ratio to newstand ratio is 10 to 1 in both countries

USA to Canada ratio is 10 to 1

so in order of rarity these are the standings:

#1 Canada newstand

#2 USA newstand/Canada direct (these should be on parity)

#3 USA direct

If I have my numbers wrong somebody please correct...

[TMNT]

Do we know print numbers for these versions? 

[ectocooler]

1 hour ago, pubmonkey said:

I thought we had established their first appearances were in issue #2... aren't they only in human form in #1? 

To be honest the advent of this issue harked the end of my TMNT collecting back in the day. At this point the regular series was no longer drawn by Eastman/Laird (really big turn off for me) and I disliked the art/story in TMNT Adventures. I held on a couple more issues and then stopped looking at them completely.

Interesting, my books have been sitting untouched since the 90s  I was going off what was on the CGC label. Based on what you guys are saying maybe they should leave the first appearance with #1, but put ‘first appearance mutated bebop rocksteady’ for #2. I bet that would drive up sales on #2 while also being more accurate. 

[pubmonkey]

6 minutes ago, TMNT said:

Do we know print numbers for these versions? 

Hopefully somebody can inform the rest of us. They will be in the hundreds of thousands arena to be sure...

[Jesse-Lee]

55 minutes ago, ectocooler said:

Interesting, my books have been sitting untouched since the 90s  I was going off what was on the CGC label. Based on what you guys are saying maybe they should leave the first appearance with #1, but put ‘first appearance mutated bebop rocksteady’ for #2. I bet that would drive up sales on #2 while also being more accurate. 

Here's the first time in the mini-series that they have names or show up in their recognizable form (issue 2):

 

In issue 1, they're only kind of recognizable by their clothes and the fact that they "work" for Shredder. No names though.

[ectocooler]

I disagree that their human forms aren’t recognizable, they even made action figures back in the day. That first mini is just an adaptation of the first season of the original cartoon. I went and snapped a few pics of my issue 1. Ask any tmnt fans who these guys are and all of them will tell you bebop and rocksteady.

I do agree that they’ve never been named pre-mutation  and the mutated appearance is by far their most popular. So it makes it kind of gray. Maybe first cameo appearance for issue 1? It’s kind of like a superheroes civilian appearance before they become a superhero the next issue, has that happened in comics? I’ll defer to you guys on what CGC decides in those cases.

[Jesse-Lee]

19 minutes ago, ectocooler said:

I disagree that their human forms aren’t recognizable, they even made action figures back in the day. That first mini is just an adaptation of the first season of the original cartoon. I went and snapped a few pics of my issue 1. Ask any tmnt fans who these guys are and all of them will tell you bebop and rocksteady.

That's a fair point - I just meant most people think of the rhino and warthog when they hear Rocksteady and Bebop. But yeah, it's definitely them in the first issue as humans, no question. I just think it's "the guys who will become Bebop and Rocksteady" in issue 1, and then legitimately the first appearance of them as Bebop and Rocksteady in issue 2.

19 minutes ago, ectocooler said:

I do agree that they’ve never been named pre-mutation  and the mutated appearance is by far their most popular. So it makes it kind of gray. Maybe first cameo appearance for issue 1? It’s kind of like a superheroes civilian appearance before they become a superhero the next issue, has that happened in comics? I’ll defer to you guys on what CGC decides in those cases.

ASM 344 is first Cletus Kasady for example, and then 361 is first Carnage - that's the first one I can think of off the top of my head... I'm sure there are tons more.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Jesse-Lee

[ectocooler]

I think people assume their names were already bebop and rocksteady pre mutation which is maybe why CGC just slapped on the FA. You’re absolutely right it’s lame that issue 1 is de facto first appearance. If someone wants first Carnage and gets first Cletus I’m sure they wouldn’t be happy  It’s not as snazzy but first pre mutation appearance would be far more accurate for issue 1. And first appearance or first mutated appearance for issue 2. First mutated appearance would be pretty cool to have on a CGC label.

 

Edit: also, I’m sure issue 1 wasn’t first Krang’s Android Body. Maybe issue 2 or 3? They could make that distinction too. Even though it’s kind of silly, CGC’s labels drive a lot of demand. I understand they might not want to clutter their labels but these are important enough distinctions to make and would also drive demand. Hope you guys were buying up issue 2s in the dollar bins too haha

Edited April 16, 2021 by ectocooler

[Roger66]

On 4/14/2021 at 11:36 AM, Icculus308win said:

It’s just nuts!   
Why did the SS one not just explode prior?

IF a year or 3 from now prices drop like a rock in a pond to where they were a year ago now - you will have perhaps one answer.  Prices don't 'explode' as much as a small group of investors ignore past sales and bid each other up - then the mob takes note of that sale - and everyone seemingly jumps in on the feeding frenzy as speculation, greed and flipping run rampant.  'IF a tree falls in a forest and there's nobody around to hear, does it make a sound?'  applies here.   IF a key comic sells for an insane price and there's nobody else who gives a damn, does that high price make a difference?  or as a wise man once said "It is the job of the market to turn the base material of emotions into gold." - my 2-cents 

[Subby1938]

Boom.....Go collect has not had sale of this one in years and puts a big value on it . Thoughts ? This one below is on eBay as we speak 

[Icculus308win]

10 hours ago, Roger66 said:

IF a year or 3 from now prices drop like a rock in a pond to where they were a year ago now - you will have perhaps one answer.  Prices don't 'explode' as much as a small group of investors ignore past sales and bid each other up - then the mob takes note of that sale - and everyone seemingly jumps in on the feeding frenzy as speculation, greed and flipping run rampant.  'IF a tree falls in a forest and there's nobody around to hear, does it make a sound?'  applies here.   IF a key comic sells for an insane price and there's nobody else who gives a damn, does that high price make a difference?  or as a wise man once said "It is the job of the market to turn the base material of emotions into gold." - my 2-cents 

I was just taken back at the discrepancy between the two sales.  
Than the short timeframe between the two, Heritage vs CC (that it was CC that beat out Heritage...by a lot on this one) Blue vs Yellow label, etc. 

 

Was just “Trying to Reason with Hurricane Season”

 

[Icculus308win]

5 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

Boom.....Go collect has not had sale of this one in years and puts a big value on it . Thoughts ? This one below is on eBay as we speak 

9 9.8s, Always seems an admired book with TMNT fans along with fans from other arenas too (Cause Dooney just fricken rocked it) $6K.......coming in wee bit hot imho, but wish seller luck. I would like to see one in auction somewhere

[Subby1938]

A 9.6 sold in auction for 1625.00 US so not sure how to gauge the 9.8. Very hard to come by who knows what someone might pay I’m thinking not quite 6K. Not yet

[Hulksdaddy1]

Strong result for a 3rd print 8.0

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teenage-Mutant-Ninja-Turtles-TMNT-1-3rd-Printing-CGC-8-0-graded-slabbed-03-21-/174725974814?ul_noapp=true&nma=true&si=%2Bl504VM88vkupyDuGwGqXdqLdEA%3D&orig_cvip=true&nordt=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

[pubmonkey]

10 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

A 9.6 sold in auction for 1625.00 US so not sure how to gauge the 9.8. Very hard to come by who knows what someone might pay I’m thinking not quite 6K. Not yet

There's no 'make offer' option either...

Based on my mathematical and computational skills (on par with my 8 yr old) I would put the value of $3750-$4250 on this one for this week. Next week it will change as we have seen prices do on a weekly basis since November 2020...

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by pubmonkey

[Icculus308win]

I’m in your son’s math class 🙋‍♂️

[shootin-str81]

Sell or Hold....  Since this is a speculation thread, I have a #3 and #4 TMNT first series.  I have been out of the comic thing for many years and recently decided to significantly reduce the collection.  The prices of books caught me a little off guard...in a good way from a sellers prospective.  So my question, sell or hold?  They are raw and I am guessing around the 8.0, 8.5 range.....the #4 might be better.   So, speculate away!!

[Subby1938]

I think the high grades 9.6-9.8 are keepers and those grades are plentiful . I’d cash out if you’re not attached to them .