Please Share The Bruce Timm Art From Your Personal Collection! 3 3

[ESeffinga]

Mine is one of the very few pieces that I never bothered to frame, for this very issue. In fact most of the time I refuse to buy marker art for fade and the other issues tied to markers. But this was one of those situations where Timm only used markers for these pieces, and there's really no alternative. And in this case it was such a desire to have a fun Timm with these characters, that I overruled my no marker stance on this one piece.  I ended u selling the other Timm pieces. I just didn't want a bunch of marker art.

[Subby1938]

My first Timm piece . It’s one that has not been seen since around 2008. One his best Namor renders imo , I’m still hunting the full colour version as it’s a huge want for me being a fan of the character . Huge thanks to my friend on CAF Kent for helping me land this. He unselfishly passed it to me knowing how hard I was trying to land a Namor ( I think he got tired of all messages I sent wanting to buy his Namor Vs Iron Man Timm lol. Thanks a bunch 

Edited September 23, 2020 by Subby1938

[Siege Perilous]

Straying slightly from the main topic, I was wondering if anyone has ever seen OA for this BT gem out in the wild?

[alexgross.com]

On 9/22/2020 at 9:42 AM, ESeffinga said:

Mine is one of the very few pieces that I never bothered to frame, for this very issue. In fact most of the time I refuse to buy marker art for fade and the other issues tied to markers. But this was one of those situations where Timm only used markers for these pieces, and there's really no alternative. And in this case it was such a desire to have a fun Timm with these characters, that I overruled my no marker stance on this one piece.  I ended u selling the other Timm pieces. I just didn't want a bunch of marker art.

i would have thought that artists like Timm would use markers that are permanent. as i don't use them much i havent looked into it deeply, but given how many high end color markers there are these days, do you, or anyone here, know of Timm's marker art fading over time? 

[Grant Turner]

Just arrived today.  I got this from Albert at his last Timm art drop.  I totally love it!

[ESeffinga]

1 hour ago, www.alexgross.com said:

i would have thought that artists like Timm would use markers that are permanent. as i don't use them much i havent looked into it deeply, but given how many high end color markers there are these days, do you, or anyone here, know of Timm's marker art fading over time? 

I’m not aware of any dye based pen/marker that is permanent. Fade resistant, sure. Permanent?  Nah. Nothing like a pigment based ink like India, etc.  Copics seem to be everyone’s favorite, art wise, and it says right in their site that they will fade with UV exposure.

I’ve seen a number of companies using UV resistant dye based inks, but all do fade given enough time. 
 

What’s more, my issue with markers is also solvent issue as well as the fading. The solvents can and do often “migrate” given enough time. They can leach out of the paper onto anything around them, including plastics. I’ve personally experienced this from my own pieces that were “permanent”.
 

But that’s just my observations. I’m sure some folks are living with marker art on their walls. I just wouldn’t do it personally, based on my personal experiences.

[malvin]

40 minutes ago, ESeffinga said:

I’m not aware of any dye based pen/marker that is permanent. Fade resistant, sure. Permanent?  Nah. Nothing like a pigment based ink like India, etc.  Copics seem to be everyone’s favorite, art wise, and it says right in their site that they will fade with UV exposure.

I’ve seen a number of companies using UV resistant dye based inks, but all do fade given enough time. 
 

What’s more, my issue with markers is also solvent issue as well as the fading. The solvents can and do often “migrate” given enough time. They can leach out of the paper onto anything around them, including plastics. I’ve personally experienced this from my own pieces that were “permanent”.
 

But that’s just my observations. I’m sure some folks are living with marker art on their walls. I just wouldn’t do it personally, based on my personal experiences.

 

On 9/22/2020 at 8:47 AM, J.Sid said:

Question for collectors: Has anyone had an issue with a framed Timm color piece fading?

I don't know of any actually fading, but I asked Bruce when I got sketches from him and he said the markers are not lightfast and will fade.  Which isn't that surprising.

Malvin

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, ESeffinga said:

I’m not aware of any dye based pen/marker that is permanent. Fade resistant, sure. Permanent?  Nah. Nothing like a pigment based ink like India, etc.  Copics seem to be everyone’s favorite, art wise, and it says right in their site that they will fade with UV exposure.

I’ve seen a number of companies using UV resistant dye based inks, but all do fade given enough time. 
 

What’s more, my issue with markers is also solvent issue as well as the fading. The solvents can and do often “migrate” given enough time. They can leach out of the paper onto anything around them, including plastics. I’ve personally experienced this from my own pieces that were “permanent”.
 

But that’s just my observations. I’m sure some folks are living with marker art on their walls. I just wouldn’t do it personally, based on my personal experiences.

My picture was done by Hembeck using marker from the early 1980’s. But, I can certainly understand your reluctance.

[Subby1938]

Protect the image from UV light with best UV glass offered . That’s what I do . Zero worries for me . 

[alexgross.com]

2 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I’m not aware of any dye based pen/marker that is permanent. Fade resistant, sure. Permanent?  Nah. Nothing like a pigment based ink like India, etc.  Copics seem to be everyone’s favorite, art wise, and it says right in their site that they will fade with UV exposure.

I’ve seen a number of companies using UV resistant dye based inks, but all do fade given enough time. 
 

What’s more, my issue with markers is also solvent issue as well as the fading. The solvents can and do often “migrate” given enough time. They can leach out of the paper onto anything around them, including plastics. I’ve personally experienced this from my own pieces that were “permanent”.
 

But that’s just my observations. I’m sure some folks are living with marker art on their walls. I just wouldn’t do it personally, based on my personal experiences.

as @Subby1938 just said, my next question was going to be about UV plexiglas or museum glass. i use these in most of the art that i display in my home. i would think that these would really take down any fading unless one was silly enough to display marker based art directly in sunlight. 

and i imagine if you store marker art in flat files where it is not exposed to light, it probably would not fade either. anyway, thanks for this info, it had never occurred to me. Timm's marker work is so stunning. It would be tragic if some of these pieces faded to a noticeably degraded state. 

[malvin]

56 minutes ago, Subby1938 said:

Protect the image from UV light with best UV glass offered . That’s what I do . Zero worries for me . 

I've heard that UV glass doesn't fully protect marker, as those fade with light, not just UV light (plus the chemicals degrade regardless)

Malvin

[Subby1938]

24 minutes ago, malvin said:

I've heard that UV glass doesn't fully protect marker, as those fade with light, not just UV light (plus the chemicals degrade regardless)

Malvin

Museum grade  blocks out 98% of UV on oil , marker , ink whatever is used really .I have a Bill Everett sketch from 1970 done in the day of primitive marker and paper quality and it’s holding up very well 50 years later!

I also use acid free matte so I’m not too concerned because if it’s good enough for art galleries it’s good enough for me . You will pay higher amounts for these materials and obviously don’t display in direct sunlight

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Subby1938

[J.Sid]

4 hours ago, malvin said:

I've heard that UV glass doesn't fully protect marker, as those fade with light, not just UV light (plus the chemicals degrade regardless)

Malvin

 

4 hours ago, Subby1938 said:

Museum grade  blocks out 98% of UV on oil , marker , ink whatever is used really .I have a Bill Everett sketch from 1970 done in the day of primitive marker and paper quality and it’s holding up very well 50 years later!

I also use acid free matte so I’m not too concerned because if it’s good enough for art galleries it’s good enough for me . You will pay higher amounts for these materials and obviously don’t display in direct sunlight

 

 

I am 0-for-1 with museum glass over a marker piece.

Had it framed on the wall for 3-4 years. Not direct sunlight, but there was a window in the room (not facing the artwork, curtains mostly closed). One day the person I got it from was visiting and saw it on my wall.

"WTF happened to the Miller??" he asked.
"What do you mean? It's framed on the wall right there," I replied. "I love it, it's great."
He assured me it was not "great" and insisted we take down the piece.

We removed it from its frame, and sure enough, my friend was right. The bottom type which reads "BFK#2" had been covered by the mat while hanging. The rest of drawing used to be that dark. I didn't notice it when it was fading one day at a time.

P.S. yes, I had the glass installed correctly...

 

Edited September 24, 2020 by J.Sid
typo

[malvin]

44 minutes ago, J.Sid said:

 

 

I am 0-for-1 with museum glass over a marker piece.

Had it framed on the wall for 3-4 years. Not direct sunlight, but there was a window in the room (not facing the artwork, curtains mostly closed). One day the person I got it from was visiting and saw it on my wall.

"WTF happened to the Miller??" he asked.
"What do you mean? It's framed on the wall right there," I replied. "I love it, it's great."
He assured me it was not "great" and insisted we take down the piece.

We removed it from its frame, and sure enough, my friend was right. The bottom type which reads "BFK#2" had been covered by the mat while hanging. The rest of drawing used to be that dark. I didn't notice it when it was fading one day at a time.

P.S. yes, I had the glass installed correctly...

 

Exactly.

UV glass doesn't do as much as people think when it comes to comic art.

Malvin

[Subby1938]

I’m confident in my framing . Sucks that happened but that’s a whole lot of terrible fade there if they were same colour . Not sure what to make of that . That marker on bottom looks a lot blacker than actual graphic . Like I said I have a 50 year old piece that hasn’t faded that bad ????

[malvin]

26 minutes ago, Subby1938 said:

I’m confident in my framing . Sucks that happened but that’s a whole lot of terrible fade there if they were same colour . Not sure what to make of that . That marker on bottom looks a lot blacker than actual graphic . Like I said I have a 50 year old piece that hasn’t faded that bad ????

It's not about the framing.  Markers fade, and if it fades day by day you don't notice.

Malvin

[ESeffinga]

And not all markers fade the same. Some just get a bit lighter gray. Some go purple. Some red or brown, etc. Everything dye based fades. It just does. Dyes are not 100% light fast.

My wife did archival framing for almost a decade. We saw what real museum glass does and does not do. They like to tell people how it blocks 90whatever percent of UV and how it will protect the work, etc. But it isn’t foolproof. It isn’t perfectly secure.

I don’t mean just keeping a dye based piece out of direct light. I mean out of any room that gets any kind of sun. Keep those pieces in darker hallways, rooms without windows. Make sure you only use LED bulbs around them, etc. 

If you have your museum glass piece in a dark hall, lit only by a single bulb, and that bulb happens to be fluorescent or incandescent, you might as well hang it in your window. 
 

As has been pointed out, fading differs. Both in speed and in intensity. The most insidious bit is it’s generally so slow, you don’t see the change day to day. But someone else that goes years without seeing it and then sees it again can.

But here’s the part where I get a little controversial. I’m of the opinion that if the piece is protected as well as possible, and you love to see it and enjoy seeing it every day... and especially commissions or sketches... frame it. Let it fade slowly over time. But enjoy it. Getting daily enjoyment from those things IMO outstrips their historic value 9 times out of 10. 
 

Work done for publication is a little trickier moral dilemma. And a chunk of why I don’t own published marker work.
 

I do have published water color pieces. Framed in museum glass, and most of these are hanging in my basement in rooms that see little filtered sun.

My whole house was converted to LED bulbs a few years back.

 

My last bit on markers, but Alex mentioned keeping them in the dark. The worst thing about them in my experience is the solvents they use as a vehicle for the dye. It is inherent in how they operate as a medium. Older markers are worse than new ones, but those solvents migrate and break down. Some will bleed out from under colors, causing the edges to look blurry, or ghosted. It leaving a light colored halo like a faint yellow on the edge of dark shapes. And they will migrate, as I mentioned before. Keep them away from everything. If marker sits directly on anything, like in a portfolio, being transported, stacked etc. Those solvents just go.

I had a couple freebie marker drawings done by creators I didn’t really know. I Put them into a portfolio. About 5 years later, I needed room, so I tossed them into a single sleeve in that portfolio to save some space. About 20 years later I was cleaning stuff out of this portfolio and stumbled across the drawings. Pulled them out and was going to toss them in the trash. I noticed something weird though. I saw the drawing that was on top had transferred on the bottom piece. The bottom piece had a near perfect copy of the top drawing, but not in ink. In a very light yellow stain. It was the solvent that had leeched from one paper to the other.

Then I noticed something else strange. That same yellow stain could be seen in the “acid free” Mylar sleeve. It had leeched into and discolored that as well.
And the kicker was these weren’t some random markers the artists had used. I use to carry very specific acid free Bristol boards and expensive archival ink pens and permanent markers from Japan with me to shows for drawings and commissions I might get. These artists used my materials. And they failed. I had seen the old stuff go kablooie before, but not any of the modern technically advanced archival pens. That was when I first realized it was universal. All those companies like to use those words, but everything fades. Even some pigment based art materials fade. Certain colors especially. 
 

Irregardless... just be aware. That is the whole thing, IMO. Go in eyes open. Know what can happen, and be happy if it doesn’t, or just be happy if you don’t notice. Whichever.
 

P.s. Museum glass and some of the UV glass really does help slow down fading. My point in bringing it up is to make sure people realize it dulls the effects, it does not stop it. There isn’t any stopping it. And not just UV light (which is for sure the worst) but any light has an effect. But it’s a heck of a lot better than nothing. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by ESeffinga

[vodou]

6 hours ago, J.Sid said:

 

 

I am 0-for-1 with museum glass over a marker piece.

Had it framed on the wall for 3-4 years. Not direct sunlight, but there was a window in the room (not facing the artwork, curtains mostly closed). One day the person I got it from was visiting and saw it on my wall.

"WTF happened to the Miller??" he asked.
"What do you mean? It's framed on the wall right there," I replied. "I love it, it's great."
He assured me it was not "great" and insisted we take down the piece.

We removed it from its frame, and sure enough, my friend was right. The bottom type which reads "BFK#2" had been covered by the mat while hanging. The rest of drawing used to be that dark. I didn't notice it when it was fading one day at a time.

P.S. yes, I had the glass installed correctly...

 

Oh no, I'm so sorry that you had to directly experience this but thank you for sharing. The CULT OF MUSEUM GLASS wouldn't believe there could be a problem otherwise!

It's not that the stuff does "nothing" but the promise is not supported by reality and then the price...what exactly are you paying up for then?

All this stuff...not oils, not acrylics, not india ink...keep it in a portfolio or a drawer and pull out occasionally, or...just live with and love, and when it's gone "it is GONE". That's okay too!

 

P.S. Everyone should make a color-corrected scan of this stuff at time of acquisition, save that/them somewhere safe (not just CAF, which can/could disappear at any time as so many other private web sites have over the past 25 years --it happens) and then no matter what happens -including fires and floods, the thing is not lost forever as it fades (along with so much Starlin and Gil Kane into...oblivion).

[vodou]

2 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

I’m of the opinion that if the piece is protected as well as possible, and you love to see it and enjoy seeing it every day... and especially commissions or sketches... frame it. Let it fade slowly over time. But enjoy it. Getting daily enjoyment from those things IMO outstrips their historic value 9 times out of 10. 

Yes. 100%. Yes.

[Subby1938]

5 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

And not all markers fade the same. Some just get a bit lighter gray. Some go purple. Some red or brown, etc. Everything dye based fades. It just does. Dyes are not 100% light fast.

My wife did archival framing for almost a decade. We saw what real museum glass does and does not do. They like to tell people how it blocks 90whatever percent of UV and how it will protect the work, etc. But it isn’t foolproof. It isn’t perfectly secure.

I don’t mean just keeping a dye based piece out of direct light. I mean out of any room that gets any kind of sun. Keep those pieces in darker hallways, rooms without windows. Make sure you only use LED bulbs around them, etc. 

If you have your museum glass piece in a dark hall, lit only by a single bulb, and that bulb happens to be fluorescent or incandescent, you might as well hang it in your window. 
 

As has been pointed out, fading differs. Both in speed and in intensity. The most insidious bit is it’s generally so slow, you don’t see the change day to day. But someone else that goes years without seeing it and then sees it again can.

But here’s the part where I get a little controversial. I’m of the opinion that if the piece is protected as well as possible, and you love to see it and enjoy seeing it every day... and especially commissions or sketches... frame it. Let it fade slowly over time. But enjoy it. Getting daily enjoyment from those things IMO outstrips their historic value 9 times out of 10. 
 

Work done for publication is a little trickier moral dilemma. And a chunk of why I don’t own published marker work.
 

I do have published water color pieces. Framed in museum glass, and most of these are hanging in my basement in rooms that see little filtered sun.

My whole house was converted to LED bulbs a few years back.

 

My last bit on markers, but Alex mentioned keeping them in the dark. The worst thing about them in my experience is the solvents they use as a vehicle for the dye. It is inherent in how they operate as a medium. Older markers are worse than new ones, but those solvents migrate and break down. Some will bleed out from under colors, causing the edges to look blurry, or ghosted. It leaving a light colored halo like a faint yellow on the edge of dark shapes. And they will migrate, as I mentioned before. Keep them away from everything. If marker sits directly on anything, like in a portfolio, being transported, stacked etc. Those solvents just go.

I had a couple freebie marker drawings done by creators I didn’t really know. I Put them into a portfolio. About 5 years later, I needed room, so I tossed them into a single sleeve in that portfolio to save some space. About 20 years later I was cleaning stuff out of this portfolio and stumbled across the drawings. Pulled them out and was going to toss them in the trash. I noticed something weird though. I saw the drawing that was on top had transferred on the bottom piece. The bottom piece had a near perfect copy of the top drawing, but not in ink. In a very light yellow stain. It was the solvent that had leeched from one paper to the other.

Then I noticed something else strange. That same yellow stain could be seen in the “acid free” Mylar sleeve. It had leeched into and discolored that as well.
And the kicker was these weren’t some random markers the artists had used. I use to carry very specific acid free Bristol boards and expensive archival ink pens and permanent markers from Japan with me to shows for drawings and commissions I might get. These artists used my materials. And they failed. I had seen the old stuff go kablooie before, but not any of the modern technically advanced archival pens. That was when I first realized it was universal. All those companies like to use those words, but everything fades. Even some pigment based art materials fade. Certain colors especially. 
 

Irregardless... just be aware. That is the whole thing, IMO. Go in eyes open. Know what can happen, and be happy if it doesn’t, or just be happy if you don’t notice. Whichever.
 

P.s. Museum glass and some of the UV glass really does help slow down fading. My point in bringing it up is to make sure people realize it dulls the effects, it does not stop it. There isn’t any stopping it. And not just UV light (which is for sure the worst) but any light has an effect. But it’s a heck of a lot better than nothing. 

Great write up , I’m one who just enjoys the art and try not to worry . 

Edited September 24, 2020 by Subby1938