CGC adding on shipping charges... from Fall 2019? 2 2

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, wombat said:

I don't care if they forgot to charge shipping at all. It is 100% unacceptable to charge someone ten months later. For anything. Suck it up and fix whatever process is broken in your company and do better. The big FU to customers is not even alerting them first. 

No argument and to do it without telling you is a red flag... that someone didn't "want you to know" that's a perception as well

[Crops068]

9 minutes ago, wombat said:

I don't care if they forgot to charge shipping at all. It is 100% unacceptable to charge someone ten months later. For anything. Suck it up and fix whatever process is broken in your company and do better. The big FU to customers is not even alerting them first. 

Yep!

[Steelrain41]

19 minutes ago, wombat said:

I don't care if they forgot to charge shipping at all. It is 100% unacceptable to charge someone ten months later. For anything. Suck it up and fix whatever process is broken in your company and do better. The big FU to customers is not even alerting them first. 

100% agree. Their customer service stopped responding to me when I complained on my issue after the initial response. They blamed COVID and the rates going up but my books shipped prior to the pandemic so hitting me for an extra $40 6 months later is ridiculous.

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, Steelrain41 said:

100% agree. Their customer service stopped responding to me when I complained on my issue after the initial response. They blamed COVID and the rates going up but my books shipped prior to the pandemic so hitting me for an extra $40 6 months later is ridiculous.

So it wasn't just the ominous ACCOUNTANT!!!

[Steelrain41]

5 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

So it wasn't just the ominous ACCOUNTANT!!!

I had to repeatedly post in the Ask CGC forums just to get into contact with anyone. No response to any emails. When I finally got in contact I got a quick, your responsible for actual shipping deal with it, and then no other responses.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Just now, Steelrain41 said:

I had to repeatedly post in the Ask CGC forums just to get into contact with anyone. No response to any emails. When I finally got in contact I got a quick, your responsible for actual shipping deal with it, and then no other responses.

That doesnt sound like normal cgc practices at all to be honest.....

[ADAMANTIUM]

@wombat @Steelrain41

Let's talk seriously for a minute

When you print out forms, it's one charge that is pretty standard and never fluctuating to my knowledge for the 5 years I've submitted

With the coronavirus and USPS or other carriers, is it possible that the rates have fluctuated this year? So bad that the charge you get from cgc is not the same rate when they're ready to ship back to you?

Imo they've always been a flat rate, but is it possible now they're charging cgc by the actual weight and stuff, that even though they still charge you a flat rate, they're fluctuating in there charges fro the postal services?

If so that explains the fluctuating and the randomness of these charges and why it's not a bigger deal. As some the charge is negligible and may not even be getting adjustments..... for all we know....

That's why I asked if this is international only to make sure, because this seems to be the only reasoning we've got as an answer.... and distance along with weight might matter

I wish they could let us know upfront but they may not be able to

Without taking more than enough from everyone every time

Food for thought

Edited September 10, 2020 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

Wait that couldnt be because coronavirus wasnt as prevalent last fall ok I got the conversation  now 

For some odd reason I was stuck in rut

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Put down the..... and pick up the coffee hahahalol

[Steelrain41]

45 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

That doesnt sound like normal cgc practices at all to be honest.....

Their customer service was working from home so I give them a little leeway on not responding to my first messages but once they did respond and I replied to them I think they just didn't want to deal with me.

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, Steelrain41 said:

Their customer service was working from home so I give them a little leeway on not responding to my first messages but once they did respond and I replied to them I think they just didn't want to deal with me.

That and that's why I tagged buzzetta I didn't think it was to ethical to charge back from 10 months ago, but I haven't read to see if the shipping charges on the form were "estimates", and that is what i was told buy the accountant so idk how that works, guess I'm still waiting on someone smarter than me

Not asking a lot really

 

[Crops068]

And just in case they try to say the Legal Terms and Conditions are where it is stated, here is the link - https://www.cgccomics.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/

Spoiler

Services Terms and Conditions

These terms and conditions apply to the services (“Services”) ordered by you (“Customer”) and described in a submission form (“Submission Form”):

1. You are submitting collectible(s) for certification by Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (“NGC”), Paper Money Guaranty, LLC (“PMG”), Certified Guaranty Company, LLC (“CGC”), Authenticated Stamp Guaranty, LLC (“ASG”), or Collectibles Authentication Guaranty (“CAG”). If NCS Conservation Services are also selected on the Submission Form, collectibles will be evaluated and, as applicable, conserved by Numismatic Conservation Services, LLC (“NCS”). If CCS Services are also selected on the Submission Form, collectibles will be evaluated and, as applicable, pressed, restored, conserved or have restoration removed by Classic Collectible Services, LLC (“CCS”). NGC, PMG, CGC, NCS, CCS, ASG, and CAG are independent affiliates within the Certified Collectibles Group of companies and are collectively referred to herein as the “Companies” and each individually as a “Company”.
2. Customer shall complete all submission information on the Submission Form, and package and ship all collectibles, in accordance with the instructions on the Submission Form. Customer represents and warrants to each Company that the Declared Value set forth on the Submission Form represents Customer’s good faith belief as to the market value of the collectible. If a Company determines that collectibles are undervalued, it will adjust the Services and fees according to its determination of the fair market value of the collectible. However, Company will not adjust the Declared Value stated by the Customer. If a Company determines that collectibles are submitted for Services for which they do not qualify, it will adjust the Services and fees as appropriate.
3. In the case of submissions by dealer members, if any collectibles are being submitted for a third party, Customer represents and warrants that the third party has authorized Customer to submit the collectibles for the Services. (Collector members may not submit for third parties.)
4. Customer agrees to pay Company all Services fees at the time of submission. If payment is being made by credit card, Customer agrees that Company may charge all Services fees to the credit card upon receipt of the Submission Form. Unpaid balances shall accrue interest at the rate of 1.0% per month until paid. Customer hereby grants to Company a security interest in the collectibles submitted to secure payment of any Services fees. In addition to such security interest, Customer agrees that Company may hold any collectibles or other property submitted by Customer until Customer has paid in full all outstanding balances, regardless of whether such balances are related to such collectibles or other property.
5. Customer assumes all risk of loss or damage to collectibles until collectibles are received and inspected by Company.
6. The Companies compile data regarding, and make digital images of, collectibles submitted for Services. In partial consideration for the performance of Services pursuant to the Submission Form, Customer hereby authorizes each Company to compile such data and make such images and agrees that each Company shall have an irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free right and license to use and commercialize such data and images for any purpose.
7. Customer acknowledges that certain coins, tokens, or medals may be more susceptible to damage due to the state in which they are provided by Customer to a Company (for example, collectibles that are enameled, colorized, painted, jeweled, or have holograms or other specialty applications; collectibles that are extremely thin; collectibles that are extremely fragile or brittle (including many collectibles struck prior to 1700); and collectibles that exhibit “bronze disease”). Customer further acknowledges that certain paper collectibles may be more susceptible to damage due to the state in which they are provided by Customer to a Company (for example, items that are worn, fragile, or brittle) and/or the properties, characteristics and quality levels of the materials of which the items are composed (for example, comic books with glossy covers, which may experience ink flecking or “color lift” even when encapsulated). Each Company will use reasonable care with respect to collectibles submitted to it for Services. In the event that a Company determines that a collectible is damaged due to negligence or lost while in a Company’s possession, Customer’s sole remedy will be compensation based upon the Company’s good faith determination of the fair market value of the collectible, in light of what the Company believes to be reliable current market information. The amount of the compensation will not necessarily be based upon, but in no event will exceed, Customer’s stated declared value of the collectible set forth in the Submission Form.
8. Each Company maintains a list of current terms and conditions applicable to particular submission types and Services on its website. Customer agrees to any such applicable terms and conditions.
9. HOLDERS FOR COLLECTIBLES ARE DESIGNED TO BE TAMPER-EVIDENT AND EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FROM WHICH TO REMOVE A COLLECTIBLE. DUE TO THE INHERENT RISKS INVOLVED IN REMOVING COLLECTIBLES FROM HOLDERS, IN THE EVENT THE SERVICES INVOLVE REMOVING A COLLECTIBLE FROM ITS HOLDER, CUSTOMER AGREES TO RELEASE, WAIVE, AND DISCHARGE COMPANIES AND THEIR DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, AGENTS, AND EMPLOYEES (“RELEASEES”) FROM ALL LIABILITY TO CUSTOMER AND ITS ASSIGNS, AND COVENANTS NOT TO SUE RELEASEES IN CONNECTION WITH ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE ARISING OUT OF ANY RELEASEE’S EFFORTS TO FULFILL CUSTOMER’S REQUEST TO REMOVE A COLLECTIBLE FROM A HOLDER, UNLESS SUCH LOSS OR DAMAGE IS CAUSED BY THE GROSS NEGLIGENCE OR WILLFUL MISCONDUCT OF A COMPANY.
10. Each of the Companies will use commercially reasonable efforts to perform the Services in accordance with the then-current description of such Services set forth on their websites and within the time frames indicated thereon.
11. The Services provided by NGC, PMG, CGC, ASG, and CAG are covered by the NGC Guarantee, the PMG Guarantee, the CGC Guarantee, the ASG Guarantee, and the CAG Guarantee, respectively, set forth on their respective websites (the “Guarantees”), the terms of which are incorporated herein by reference. Customer should refer to the appropriate corresponding Guarantee (NGC, PMG, CGC, ASG or CAG) to understand the benefits and protections afforded to Customer, as well as the applicable limitations. NGC’s, PMG’s, CGC’s, ASG’s, and CAG’s sole and exclusive liability and Customer’s sole and exclusive remedy for NGC’s, PMG’s, CGC’s, ASG’s, or CAG’s failure to comply with its obligations under Section 10 above shall be pursuant to the appropriate corresponding Guarantee.
12. NCS and CCS do not provide grade protection or any type of guarantee for collectibles submitted to them. Due to the fragile nature of collectibles, Customer acknowledges that techniques used by CCS for pressing, restoration, removal, or conservation Services may result in new defects or damage to the collectible, including, but not limited to, spine splits, popped staples, paper pieces chipping off, creases, and stains. Customer acknowledges that the conservation Services provided by NCS or CCS with respect to a submitted collectible may result in a lower grade or no grade subsequently being assigned to such collectible by a grading company. BY SUBMITTING A COLLECTIBLE TO NCS OR CCS, CUSTOMER WAIVES ANY RIGHT TO ASSERT ANY FORM OF LEGAL CLAIM AGAINST RELEASEES WITH RESPECT TO A LOWER GRADE OR NO GRADE SUBSEQUENTLY BEING ASSIGNED TO SUCH COLLECTIBLE BY A GRADING COMPANY, UNLESS CAUSED SOLELY BY THE GROSS NEGLIGENCE OR WILLFUL MISCONDUCT OF NCS OR CCS.
13. A Company has the right in its sole discretion to reject any collectibles submitted for Services in cases where the submitted collectibles do not comply with a Company’s then-current standards and procedures set forth on its website. Because even collectibles that are ultimately rejected must still be received, tracked and examined, fees for Services shall not be refunded for such rejected collectibles.
14. Customer agrees to notify Company of any changes in Customer’s contact information. If Customer-submitted property remains unclaimed for a period of one (1) year from submission, Company may dispose of such property in any manner without liability. Company may also charge Customer for reasonable costs and expenses incurred in storing ($1 per collectible per month) and insuring (0.1% of declared value per month) unclaimed property.
15. CUSTOMER ASSUMES ALL RISK OF LOSS OR DAMAGE TO COLLECTIBLES DURING RETURN SHIPMENT FROM A COMPANY TO CUSTOMER. Customer is responsible for selecting a carrier (for example, USPS Registered Mail, FedEx, UPS, or other carrier) for return shipping. If Customer selects USPS Registered Mail for domestic U.S. return shipments, Company will purchase insurance on behalf of Customer in the amount of Customer’s Declared Value; however, Customer understands and agrees that Company cannot purchase insurance on any international return shipments. Customer is strongly encouraged to procure Customer’s own insurance for return shipment.
16. Customer must inspect all collectibles immediately upon receipt from a Company. A Company shall have no liability for any damage or errors unless reported to Company within fourteen (14) days of Customer’s receipt of the collectibles from Company. Any liability of a Company is subject to the limitations in Section 7 above.
17. Customer agrees to return to a Company, at the Company’s expense, any collectible bearing a clerical error made by the Company. A Company will, at its expense, correct the clerical error and return the corrected collectible to Customer. Customer agrees to indemnify, defend and hold Releasees harmless from and against all claims, liabilities and expenses (including reasonable attorneys’ fees) relating to or arising directly or indirectly from Customer’s failure to comply with this Section 17.
18. EXCEPT FOR ANY EXPRESS WARRANTIES SET FORTH IN THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, EACH COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, REGARDING SUCH COMPANY AND / OR THE SERVICES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. IN NO EVENT SHALL A COMPANY OR ANY OF ITS AFFILIATES, OR ANY OF ITS OR THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR AGENTS, BE LIABLE TO CUSTOMER OR ANY OTHER PARTY FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, AND EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE EXPRESSLY SET FORTH IN THE GUARANTEE IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AGGREGATE LIABILITY OF EACH OF THE COMPANIES, ITS AFFILIATES, AND ANY OF ITS OR THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR AGENTS TO THE CUSTOMER OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR WHOM THE CUSTOMER MAY BE ACTING, ARISING FROM ANY CAUSE, ACT, OMISSION OR OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE, EXCEED THE FEES PAID OR PAYABLE FOR THE SERVICES ORDERED PURSUANT TO THIS ORDER FORM.
19. The laws of the State of Florida, without regard to its choice-of-law principles, shall apply to transactions and / or disputes between a Company and Customer. Customer agrees to (1) the exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute of the state and / or federal courts located in, or serving Sarasota County, Florida; (2) not challenge such jurisdiction or venue; and (3) accept service by certified or registered mail.
20. These terms and conditions, together with (i) the submission form; (ii) the appropriate corresponding Guarantee; (iii) the collector or dealer agreement; (iv) a Company’s Privacy Policy; and (v) a Company’s Terms of Web Site Use, constitute the entire agreement of each Company and Customer (and any third party for whom Customer may be acting) regarding, and supersede all prior agreements and understandings (written or oral) between or among such parties relating to, the subject matter hereof. In the event of a conflict, these terms and the current applicable Guarantee for the appropriate Company providing Services shall prevail. If any term or condition is determined, by a final and non-appealable ruling or order of a court of competent jurisdiction, to be invalid or unenforceable under applicable law, such invalidity or unenforceability shall not affect the validity or enforceability of any of the other terms and conditions hereof.

Revised: March 5, 2020

So there is NO mention of shipping being an estimate.  It however does "highly encourage" your own shipping.  Also "Customer agrees to pay Company all Services fees at the time of submission," 10 months later (or 2 months or anytime after for that matter) is NOT at time of submission.  Doesn't that make this whole debacle a violation of their own terms?

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

Hmmm.. now I guess I have to start going back and double checking my submissions and billing. 

Things are starting to get ridiculous.  SCS, Newton Rings, CCS may or may not be pressing all books, Damage to In House Signing Books with Disclaimer added, Handling of the Sup 1 , Restored Books in Blue Character Labels,  Scuffed/ Scratched Cases/Wells, Damage During Slabbing, Trash/Grass/Hair in Slabs, TATs  padded by recieved date, Now add Back Charges on 10 month old submission? 

I keep finding it harder and harder to send my books off to CGC. I want to love them , but they just keep making it more and more difficult. They really need to get their Sh@t together. 

 

Almost forgot the Wolverines that were in 9.8 holders that clearly had no place being in them to begin with and obviously were supposed to be some of the rejects from that 9.8 pre screen yet they were stabbed 9.8...

Edited September 10, 2020 by onlyweaknesskryptonite
Almost forgot.

[wombat]

2 minutes ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Damage to In House Signing Books with Disclaimer added

I missed this one. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

8 minutes ago, wombat said:

I missed this one. 

CGC just put up this new waiver on the submission page, basically summarizing this thread's mention of the risks of submitting a slabbed book.

If I remember correctly this is a quote from page 21 or 22 of the in house signing thread. I will add a link to it where several members have submitted CGC graded books that all fell in grade and they basically stated that the Slabs can damage books when removing them even if done by them.

 

Edited September 10, 2020 by onlyweaknesskryptonite
Add link.

[wombat]

Thanks. I have always assumed that was a risk. Does't seem that odd to me. 

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

2 minutes ago, wombat said:

Thanks. I have always assumed that was a risk. Does't seem that odd to me. 

I definitely agree and especially when you already have it signed and the ink can smear or rub off. Plus you add in cracking, window bag, anyone who handled it in those processes,  then signed and handled again. Definitely always a risk it was just odd that after it was being discussed here on the boards they decided to add that disclaimer.  Which in turn gives them a go to reason of why your CGC 9.8 SS is now a CGC 8.0 Dual SS. With pressable defects even after going through CCS. 

Which was the only reason I added it to the list above, just another potential issue in their list of growing issues.

[Crops068]

38 minutes ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:

Hmmm.. now I guess I have to start going back and double checking my submissions and billing. 

Things are starting to get ridiculous.  SCS, Newton Rings, CCS may or may not be pressing all books, Damage to In House Signing Books with Disclaimer added, Handling of the Sup 1 , Restored Books in Blue Character Labels,  Scuffed/ Scratched Cases/Wells, Damage During Slabbing, Trash/Grass/Hair in Slabs, TATs  padded by recieved date, Now add Back Charges on 10 month old submission? 

I keep finding it harder and harder to send my books off to CGC. I want to love them , but they just keep making it more and more difficult. They really need to get their Sh@t together. 

 

Almost forgot the Wolverines that were in 9.8 holders that clearly had no place being in them to begin with and obviously were supposed to be some of the rejects from that 9.8 pre screen yet they were stabbed 9.8...

My only slabs are CGC.  But you are hitting the nail on the head unfortunately.  It is getting harder and harder to defend some of this. I hope they can figure all of this out and get back on track.

[Buzzetta]

7 hours ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

Still I thought you might know something about accounting and/or business to know if this was a normal kind of thing, being charged extra on shipping from orders that are completed 10 months or more ago  

What does the contract for shipping say?   I honestly have no idea since I have not seen the contract for shipping at a freight level. 

Also, as Jay said, consider the turnaround times from submittal to shipping, what does the contract say about fees if fees increase during that time period?

They have been known to upcharge invoices so is there something about shipping?  I honestly do not know.   I have never shipped more than 15 books in my entire submittal history with CGC so I have always used the USPS regular mail.   I honestly never gave it a thought.

[wombat]

Has anyone ever in their history of ordering things ever been charged additional for shipping once the transaction was complete and you had the product in hand? I can't recall ever hearing about something like that with any product. The closest I can think of (which isn't the same at all really) is when you order a statue being made they might charge an estimate and then make a correction once they have the statue in hand with exact dimensions/weights.