CGC adding on shipping charges... from Fall 2019? 2 2

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 hour ago, Crops068 said:

And just in case they try to say the Legal Terms and Conditions are where it is stated, here is the link - https://www.cgccomics.com/legal/terms-and-conditions/

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Services Terms and Conditions

These terms and conditions apply to the services (“Services”) ordered by you (“Customer”) and described in a submission form (“Submission Form”):

1. You are submitting collectible(s) for certification by Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (“NGC”), Paper Money Guaranty, LLC (“PMG”), Certified Guaranty Company, LLC (“CGC”), Authenticated Stamp Guaranty, LLC (“ASG”), or Collectibles Authentication Guaranty (“CAG”). If NCS Conservation Services are also selected on the Submission Form, collectibles will be evaluated and, as applicable, conserved by Numismatic Conservation Services, LLC (“NCS”). If CCS Services are also selected on the Submission Form, collectibles will be evaluated and, as applicable, pressed, restored, conserved or have restoration removed by Classic Collectible Services, LLC (“CCS”). NGC, PMG, CGC, NCS, CCS, ASG, and CAG are independent affiliates within the Certified Collectibles Group of companies and are collectively referred to herein as the “Companies” and each individually as a “Company”.
2. Customer shall complete all submission information on the Submission Form, and package and ship all collectibles, in accordance with the instructions on the Submission Form. Customer represents and warrants to each Company that the Declared Value set forth on the Submission Form represents Customer’s good faith belief as to the market value of the collectible. If a Company determines that collectibles are undervalued, it will adjust the Services and fees according to its determination of the fair market value of the collectible. However, Company will not adjust the Declared Value stated by the Customer. If a Company determines that collectibles are submitted for Services for which they do not qualify, it will adjust the Services and fees as appropriate.
3. In the case of submissions by dealer members, if any collectibles are being submitted for a third party, Customer represents and warrants that the third party has authorized Customer to submit the collectibles for the Services. (Collector members may not submit for third parties.)
4. Customer agrees to pay Company all Services fees at the time of submission. If payment is being made by credit card, Customer agrees that Company may charge all Services fees to the credit card upon receipt of the Submission Form. Unpaid balances shall accrue interest at the rate of 1.0% per month until paid. Customer hereby grants to Company a security interest in the collectibles submitted to secure payment of any Services fees. In addition to such security interest, Customer agrees that Company may hold any collectibles or other property submitted by Customer until Customer has paid in full all outstanding balances, regardless of whether such balances are related to such collectibles or other property.
5. Customer assumes all risk of loss or damage to collectibles until collectibles are received and inspected by Company.
6. The Companies compile data regarding, and make digital images of, collectibles submitted for Services. In partial consideration for the performance of Services pursuant to the Submission Form, Customer hereby authorizes each Company to compile such data and make such images and agrees that each Company shall have an irrevocable, non-exclusive, perpetual, unlimited, royalty-free right and license to use and commercialize such data and images for any purpose.
7. Customer acknowledges that certain coins, tokens, or medals may be more susceptible to damage due to the state in which they are provided by Customer to a Company (for example, collectibles that are enameled, colorized, painted, jeweled, or have holograms or other specialty applications; collectibles that are extremely thin; collectibles that are extremely fragile or brittle (including many collectibles struck prior to 1700); and collectibles that exhibit “bronze disease”). Customer further acknowledges that certain paper collectibles may be more susceptible to damage due to the state in which they are provided by Customer to a Company (for example, items that are worn, fragile, or brittle) and/or the properties, characteristics and quality levels of the materials of which the items are composed (for example, comic books with glossy covers, which may experience ink flecking or “color lift” even when encapsulated). Each Company will use reasonable care with respect to collectibles submitted to it for Services. In the event that a Company determines that a collectible is damaged due to negligence or lost while in a Company’s possession, Customer’s sole remedy will be compensation based upon the Company’s good faith determination of the fair market value of the collectible, in light of what the Company believes to be reliable current market information. The amount of the compensation will not necessarily be based upon, but in no event will exceed, Customer’s stated declared value of the collectible set forth in the Submission Form.
8. Each Company maintains a list of current terms and conditions applicable to particular submission types and Services on its website. Customer agrees to any such applicable terms and conditions.
9. HOLDERS FOR COLLECTIBLES ARE DESIGNED TO BE TAMPER-EVIDENT AND EXTREMELY DIFFICULT FROM WHICH TO REMOVE A COLLECTIBLE. DUE TO THE INHERENT RISKS INVOLVED IN REMOVING COLLECTIBLES FROM HOLDERS, IN THE EVENT THE SERVICES INVOLVE REMOVING A COLLECTIBLE FROM ITS HOLDER, CUSTOMER AGREES TO RELEASE, WAIVE, AND DISCHARGE COMPANIES AND THEIR DIRECTORS, OFFICERS, AGENTS, AND EMPLOYEES (“RELEASEES”) FROM ALL LIABILITY TO CUSTOMER AND ITS ASSIGNS, AND COVENANTS NOT TO SUE RELEASEES IN CONNECTION WITH ANY LOSS OR DAMAGE ARISING OUT OF ANY RELEASEE’S EFFORTS TO FULFILL CUSTOMER’S REQUEST TO REMOVE A COLLECTIBLE FROM A HOLDER, UNLESS SUCH LOSS OR DAMAGE IS CAUSED BY THE GROSS NEGLIGENCE OR WILLFUL MISCONDUCT OF A COMPANY.
10. Each of the Companies will use commercially reasonable efforts to perform the Services in accordance with the then-current description of such Services set forth on their websites and within the time frames indicated thereon.
11. The Services provided by NGC, PMG, CGC, ASG, and CAG are covered by the NGC Guarantee, the PMG Guarantee, the CGC Guarantee, the ASG Guarantee, and the CAG Guarantee, respectively, set forth on their respective websites (the “Guarantees”), the terms of which are incorporated herein by reference. Customer should refer to the appropriate corresponding Guarantee (NGC, PMG, CGC, ASG or CAG) to understand the benefits and protections afforded to Customer, as well as the applicable limitations. NGC’s, PMG’s, CGC’s, ASG’s, and CAG’s sole and exclusive liability and Customer’s sole and exclusive remedy for NGC’s, PMG’s, CGC’s, ASG’s, or CAG’s failure to comply with its obligations under Section 10 above shall be pursuant to the appropriate corresponding Guarantee.
12. NCS and CCS do not provide grade protection or any type of guarantee for collectibles submitted to them. Due to the fragile nature of collectibles, Customer acknowledges that techniques used by CCS for pressing, restoration, removal, or conservation Services may result in new defects or damage to the collectible, including, but not limited to, spine splits, popped staples, paper pieces chipping off, creases, and stains. Customer acknowledges that the conservation Services provided by NCS or CCS with respect to a submitted collectible may result in a lower grade or no grade subsequently being assigned to such collectible by a grading company. BY SUBMITTING A COLLECTIBLE TO NCS OR CCS, CUSTOMER WAIVES ANY RIGHT TO ASSERT ANY FORM OF LEGAL CLAIM AGAINST RELEASEES WITH RESPECT TO A LOWER GRADE OR NO GRADE SUBSEQUENTLY BEING ASSIGNED TO SUCH COLLECTIBLE BY A GRADING COMPANY, UNLESS CAUSED SOLELY BY THE GROSS NEGLIGENCE OR WILLFUL MISCONDUCT OF NCS OR CCS.
13. A Company has the right in its sole discretion to reject any collectibles submitted for Services in cases where the submitted collectibles do not comply with a Company’s then-current standards and procedures set forth on its website. Because even collectibles that are ultimately rejected must still be received, tracked and examined, fees for Services shall not be refunded for such rejected collectibles.
14. Customer agrees to notify Company of any changes in Customer’s contact information. If Customer-submitted property remains unclaimed for a period of one (1) year from submission, Company may dispose of such property in any manner without liability. Company may also charge Customer for reasonable costs and expenses incurred in storing ($1 per collectible per month) and insuring (0.1% of declared value per month) unclaimed property.
15. CUSTOMER ASSUMES ALL RISK OF LOSS OR DAMAGE TO COLLECTIBLES DURING RETURN SHIPMENT FROM A COMPANY TO CUSTOMER. Customer is responsible for selecting a carrier (for example, USPS Registered Mail, FedEx, UPS, or other carrier) for return shipping. If Customer selects USPS Registered Mail for domestic U.S. return shipments, Company will purchase insurance on behalf of Customer in the amount of Customer’s Declared Value; however, Customer understands and agrees that Company cannot purchase insurance on any international return shipments. Customer is strongly encouraged to procure Customer’s own insurance for return shipment.
16. Customer must inspect all collectibles immediately upon receipt from a Company. A Company shall have no liability for any damage or errors unless reported to Company within fourteen (14) days of Customer’s receipt of the collectibles from Company. Any liability of a Company is subject to the limitations in Section 7 above.
17. Customer agrees to return to a Company, at the Company’s expense, any collectible bearing a clerical error made by the Company. A Company will, at its expense, correct the clerical error and return the corrected collectible to Customer. Customer agrees to indemnify, defend and hold Releasees harmless from and against all claims, liabilities and expenses (including reasonable attorneys’ fees) relating to or arising directly or indirectly from Customer’s failure to comply with this Section 17.
18. EXCEPT FOR ANY EXPRESS WARRANTIES SET FORTH IN THESE TERMS AND CONDITIONS, EACH COMPANY DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, REGARDING SUCH COMPANY AND / OR THE SERVICES, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO THE WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. IN NO EVENT SHALL A COMPANY OR ANY OF ITS AFFILIATES, OR ANY OF ITS OR THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR AGENTS, BE LIABLE TO CUSTOMER OR ANY OTHER PARTY FOR ANY INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, CONSEQUENTIAL OR EXEMPLARY DAMAGES, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGES, AND EXCEPT AS OTHERWISE EXPRESSLY SET FORTH IN THE GUARANTEE IN NO EVENT SHALL THE AGGREGATE LIABILITY OF EACH OF THE COMPANIES, ITS AFFILIATES, AND ANY OF ITS OR THEIR RESPECTIVE EMPLOYEES, OFFICERS, DIRECTORS OR AGENTS TO THE CUSTOMER OR ANY THIRD PARTY FOR WHOM THE CUSTOMER MAY BE ACTING, ARISING FROM ANY CAUSE, ACT, OMISSION OR OTHER CIRCUMSTANCE, EXCEED THE FEES PAID OR PAYABLE FOR THE SERVICES ORDERED PURSUANT TO THIS ORDER FORM.
19. The laws of the State of Florida, without regard to its choice-of-law principles, shall apply to transactions and / or disputes between a Company and Customer. Customer agrees to (1) the exclusive jurisdiction and venue for any dispute of the state and / or federal courts located in, or serving Sarasota County, Florida; (2) not challenge such jurisdiction or venue; and (3) accept service by certified or registered mail.
20. These terms and conditions, together with (i) the submission form; (ii) the appropriate corresponding Guarantee; (iii) the collector or dealer agreement; (iv) a Company’s Privacy Policy; and (v) a Company’s Terms of Web Site Use, constitute the entire agreement of each Company and Customer (and any third party for whom Customer may be acting) regarding, and supersede all prior agreements and understandings (written or oral) between or among such parties relating to, the subject matter hereof. In the event of a conflict, these terms and the current applicable Guarantee for the appropriate Company providing Services shall prevail. If any term or condition is determined, by a final and non-appealable ruling or order of a court of competent jurisdiction, to be invalid or unenforceable under applicable law, such invalidity or unenforceability shall not affect the validity or enforceability of any of the other terms and conditions hereof.

Revised: March 5, 2020

So there is NO mention of shipping being an estimate.  It however does "highly encourage" your own shipping.  Also "Customer agrees to pay Company all Services fees at the time of submission," 10 months later (or 2 months or anytime after for that matter) is NOT at time of submission.  Doesn't that make this whole debacle a violation of their own terms?

It's in spoiler buzzetta the shipping details, but mainly this next quote, never in 5 years has anyone since I've been here mention a charge 10 months after the fact. If it's new policy that should be  @Buzzetta

6 minutes ago, wombat said:

Has anyone ever in their history of ordering things ever been charged additional for shipping once the transaction was complete and you had the product in hand? I can't recall ever hearing about something like that with any product. The closest I can think of (which isn't the same at all really) is when you order a statue being made they might charge an estimate and then make a correction once they have the statue in hand with exact dimensions/weights. 

 

[wombat]

2 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

t's in spoiler buzzetta the shipping details, but mainly this next quote, never in 5 years has anyone since I've been here mention a charge 10 months after the fact. If it's new policy that should be  @Buzzetta

9 minutes ago, wombat said:

Has anyone ever in their history of ordering things ever been charged additional for shipping once the transaction was complete and you had the product in hand? I can't recall ever hearing about something like that with any product. The closest I can think of (which isn't the same at all really) is when you order a statue being made they might charge an estimate and then make a correction once they have the statue in hand with exact dimensions/weights. 

I wasn't talking strictly about CGC. I literally meant ordering anything. I've never heard of something like this. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

Just now, wombat said:

3 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

t's in spoiler buzzetta the shipping details, but mainly this next quote, never in 5 years has anyone since I've been here mention a charge 10 months after the fact. If it's new policy that should be  @Buzzetta

10 minutes ago, wombat said:

Has anyone ever in their history of ordering things ever been charged additional for shipping once the transaction was complete and you had the product in hand? I can't recall ever hearing about something like that with any product. The closest I can think of (which isn't the same at all really) is when you order a statue being made they might charge an estimate and then make a correction once they have the statue in hand with exact dimensions/weights. 

I wasn't talking strictly about CGC. I literally meant ordering anything. I've never heard of something like this. 

Ya that's a thing too, the reason buzzetta hasn't thought about it, is because it doesnt happen....

Not to any of our knowledge until now, that's the reason to ask someone in business or sales. I also wanted him to see the spoiler to see if the shipping details fine print translates to something anything to describe this situation

I'm not picking on @Buzzetta either, when I originally tagged him, I thought this thread would be hopping.

Guess no one really seems to mind until it happens to them or even realize the charge happened. No ones thinking to check there statements for extra charges from 10 months ago, that's  and the only reason were finding out, is not because the company told us of the extra $180 being charged to some, but the size of the charge is unreal even on 15 books to Canada 

[Buzzetta]

I have a lot happening at once... promise I will get to everyone..  

 

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 minute ago, Buzzetta said:

I have a lot happening at once... promise I will get to everyone..  

 

No worries buzz I didn't mean to single you or anyone out

[Gaard]

This probably has nothing to do with the subject at hand. I just wanted to point out that the page does say this ...

" Shipping and insurance rates are subject to change without notice. "

Edited September 10, 2020 by Gaard

[Crops068]

2 hours ago, Buzzetta said:

What does the contract for shipping say?   I honestly have no idea since I have not seen the contract for shipping at a freight level. 

Also, as Jay said, consider the turnaround times from submittal to shipping, what does the contract say about fees if fees increase during that time period?

They have been known to upcharge invoices so is there something about shipping?  I honestly do not know.   I have never shipped more than 15 books in my entire submittal history with CGC so I have always used the USPS regular mail.   I honestly never gave it a thought.

Ah just saw this.  So the Submission form by itself I do not see anything specific other than the prices, there is no mention that the prices are estimates as the accounting department claims.  In my earlier post I did link the Legal Terms, which also does not go over anything glaring that I noticed, please let me know if you feel I missed something there.

Where I think they will try to push though is on the Return Delivery page.  The last line states "Customer is responsible for any shipping or customs charges incurred by CGC in shipping their collectibles. (as shown below)

While I have not noticed this before, that does not mean they just added it.

They definitely need to update to show somewhere that the pricing are estimates.  They also should be warning people before charging additional fees.

This is no different than going to get your car repaired and them telling you the cost for repairs would be $1500 and you go pickup your car, pay them and then go to get gas a week later and they say oh just kidding it was actually $2500 and we already charged your card the extra $1000 along with that $20 in gas you just bought.  Then when you question it, they respond with "well the market changed so live with it."

[wombat]

I might have missed this, but has this only happened when someone has an additional invoice and it gets added on or has anyone gotten a completely separate charge without having a new invoice to pay?

[Ryan.]

11 minutes ago, wombat said:

I might have missed this, but has this only happened when someone has an additional invoice and it gets added on or has anyone gotten a completely separate charge without having a new invoice to pay?

The three times this has happened to me it shows up as an extra line item charge on my most recent invoice. This practice they've adopted of adding after the fact shipping charges to future invoices has discouraged my submissions. 

[jaybuck43]

10 hours ago, wombat said:

Has anyone ever in their history of ordering things ever been charged additional for shipping once the transaction was complete and you had the product in hand? I can't recall ever hearing about something like that with any product. The closest I can think of (which isn't the same at all really) is when you order a statue being made they might charge an estimate and then make a correction once they have the statue in hand with exact dimensions/weights. 

Yes.  I dropped off a comic book with a known creator to commission them to draw a cover on it.  They took it and spent time drawing it.  They then sent it to CGC.  There rep sent me the bill for the commission.  I paid.  The book was then sent to me by CGC.  I got it, loved it.  Then got a text message from the rep, who said he just got the bill from CGC and needed to bill me the grading and shipping fee.  So I paypaled him the funds.  

[wombat]

Just now, jaybuck43 said:

Yes.  I dropped off a comic book with a known creator to commission them to draw a cover on it.  They took it and spent time drawing it.  They then sent it to CGC.  There rep sent me the bill for the commission.  I paid.  The book was then sent to me by CGC.  I got it, loved it.  Then got a text message from the rep, who said he just got the bill from CGC and needed to bill me the grading and shipping fee.  So I paypaled him the funds.  

That seems pretty different. As you said you were billed for the commission and paid it. Later on you were billed for the CGC portion that included shipping. Now if the rep texted you months later and said they are charging you more for one of the items you already paid that was be what I was asking. 

[Crops068]

2 hours ago, wombat said:

I might have missed this, but has this only happened when someone has an additional invoice and it gets added on or has anyone gotten a completely separate charge without having a new invoice to pay?

So far, yes this has been my experience. It is a new line item on the next submission, it is documented that it is for the previous submission number with no info.  I had to call in to find any thing out.

Edited September 10, 2020 by Crops068

[Gaard]

5 hours ago, Crops068 said:

So far, yes this has been my experience. It is a new line item on the next submission, it is documented that it is for the previous submission number with no info.  I had to call in to find any thing out.

So if you hadn't subbed anymore, you never would've been billed?

[Crops068]

12 minutes ago, Gaard said:

So if you hadn't subbed anymore, you never would've been billed?

That would be my guess.

[ADAMANTIUM]

11 minutes ago, Crops068 said:

23 minutes ago, Gaard said:

So if you hadn't subbed anymore, you never would've been billed?

That would be my guess.

so how does that make sense business wise

something fishy

do I owe it or not

 

[wombat]

8 minutes ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

so how does that make sense business wise

something fishy

do I owe it or not

 

You mean only punishing your repeat customers is not a brilliant business move?

 

Seriously, the lesson here is only submit once. 

[wombat]

This is starting to come together for me (I'm not that smart so it takes time). CGC knows this would never work if they just charged your credit card after so much time. It can certainly be distputed. But if they add it to a current invoice and you agree to pay it that is perfectly fine. Also, I assume since it is tacked on to a current invoice they have your books as "ransom". Don't pay the extra fee and you don't get your books. I'm assuming you get charged before you get your books. 

 

[Crops068]

9 minutes ago, wombat said:

This is starting to come together for me (I'm not that smart so it takes time). CGC knows this would never work if they just charged your credit card after so much time. It can certainly be distputed. But if they add it to a current invoice and you agree to pay it that is perfectly fine. Also, I assume since it is tacked on to a current invoice they have your books as "ransom". Don't pay the extra fee and you don't get your books. I'm assuming you get charged before you get your books. 

 

It was indeed added to the invoice upon receipt and movement of my most recent Fast Track invoice.  I have another one about to get ran in the next few weeks.  Lets see if there is another added charge on that one too.

[ADAMANTIUM]

[slowdowntubby]

Update for my particular problem: Harshen reached out and has informed me CGC has applied a $200 credit to my account. He explicitly said they shouldn't have been charging for old freight from 2019 and did extend an apology. I've thanked them for their prompt attention. 

Hopefully this incident leads to more transparency in their billing practices down the line. That's really the most important thing for me. I shouldn't have to be playing detective to make sure I'm being billed accurately. I fear for the other accounts who do a lot of submissions but maybe don't pay as close attention to billing as I do.

For a company whose sole product (beyond a piece of hard plastic) is their perceived reputation for accuracy and fairness, trust is everything. Making this right for me goes a long way to restoring that trust.