Did Stan Lee use a ghost writer?? 2 2

[kustomizer]

14 hours ago, piper said:

Have you ever seen the stories produced by Ditko and Kirby without Lee? That’s proof enough for me of Lee’s involvement.

Sure. And I sometimes wonder what the FF would have been like if drawn all along by Don Heck and Spidey by Bob Powell.

 

Edited September 14, 2020 by kustomizer
Removal of malapropism and correction of split infinitive. Deletion of errant semi-colon.

[Terry E. Gibbs]

57 minutes ago, kustomizer said:

Sure. And I sometimes wonder what the FF would have been like if drawn all along by Don Heck and Spidey by Bob Powell.

 

or what FF would have been like written by Don Heck

[kustomizer]

3 minutes ago, Terry E. Gibbs said:

or what FF would have been like written by Don Heck

Well, it would have been at least heavily plotted by Don Heck, as that was the Marvel method.

[gunsmokin]

On 9/13/2020 at 8:53 PM, kustomizer said:

Sure. And I sometimes wonder what the FF would have been like if drawn all along by Don Heck and Spidey by Bob Powell.

 

Yes. The entire Fourth World is proof of how good the silver age of Marvel could have been.

[comicparadox]

It is well known that “Stan Lee” was not the author’s given name.

Theories abound as to the actual author of the greatest works in the English language. Some favor “the Oxford Man”, (Earl de Vere) who ghost-wrote for “Stan Lee”. Perhaps it was Christopher Marlowe. Personally, I favor Bacon.

 Having grown up during the depression in New York City to a blue collar tradesman family of non-substantive means, there’s no way Stanley Martin Shakspere-Lieber could have written such intricacies.

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by comicparadox
Clarification of Oxford Man

[gunsmokin]

2 hours ago, comicparadox said:

It is well known that “Stan Lee” was not the author’s given name.

Theories abound as to the actual author of the greatest works in the English language. Some favor “the Oxford Man”, (Earl de Vere) who ghost-wrote for “Stan Lee”. Perhaps it was Christopher Marlowe. Personally, I favor Bacon.

 Having grown up during the depression in New York City to a blue collar tradesman family of non-substantive means, there’s no way Stanley Martin Shakspere-Lieber could have written such intricacies.

 

That is because Kirby WAS extremely well read and had an extensive interest in science fiction and mythology.

[Terry E. Gibbs]

Chris Clairmont did a panel on Kirby at ECCC 2018 with a group of other artists. One of the pages shown was Dr Doom sitting relaxed (in armour of course) in his control room, which was very detailed with "gadgets". Chris said "and if you asked Jack about them he could have told you what they were for, what they did and how they operated". So much more than an artist

[bluechip]

On 9/11/2020 at 7:40 PM, kustomizer said:

I have a theory that Stan Lee did not actually write or --script anything himself, but was secretly using a ghost writer. I have reasons for coming up with this seemingly bizarre notion.

Trust your instincts in terming it a bizarre notion.  There are countless people who worked with Stan over the course of 78 years who can attest that he wrote countless things himself and many more in partnership with others.     

[bluechip]

On 9/12/2020 at 11:10 PM, Terry E. Gibbs said:

Stan used to write such at times. We will never know how much Stan actually did. Jack and Steve were far too modest to get into  it, while Stan "Flashman" Lee was "super salesman"

"Jack and Steve were far too modest to get into  it"???

Both men are on record being highly assertive and sometimes combative about the extent of their contributions.

[bluechip]

On 9/13/2020 at 6:17 AM, kustomizer said:

Stan Lee, 1967:

"Some artists, such as Jack Kirby, need no plot
at all. I mean, I’ll just say to Jack, ‘Let’s let the
next villain be Dr. Doom’... or I may not even
say that. He may tell me. And then he goes
home and does it. He’s so good at plots, I’m
sure he’s a thousand times better than I. He
just about makes up the plots for these stories.
All I do is a little editing... I may tell him that
he’s gone too far in one direction or another.
Of course, occasionally I’ll give him a plot,
but we’re practically both the writers on the
things.”
 

I doubt very much I will ever have the same time, energy and desire to refuting your assertions as you apparently have for making them.  But your premise was that Stan used a "ghost writer" and didn't write anything at all.  This quote has been brought out many times by people who want to assert Stan was trying to deceive people about the extent of his work, failing (each and every time I've seen it used) to point out that this quote was not something Stan was "caught" saying in secret, but something he said openly, on the record, and often. 

He wrote and/or edited literally thousands of comic scripts.  Of course he did not write every plot and every word himself, and of course, other people contributed.   

But why am I taking time to point out the obvious?  You have not just a theory, I suspect, but an agenda which will preclude any refutation as well as embrace any contradiction, in the service of that agenda.  Plus, apparently, a lot of time and determination you are willing to put into it.  

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by bluechip

[aardvark88]

On 9/13/2020 at 6:53 PM, kustomizer said:

 And I sometimes wonder what ... Spidey by Bob Powell.

 

Is that a reference to the Fly being drawn by Bob Powell? Arguably first Spider-man 'prototype' drawn as a villain by Kirby in 1958 with later ASM spandex suit colors:

[aardvark88]

On 9/12/2020 at 6:41 AM, kustomizer said:

Stan Lee, from a 1974 interview with Jae Maeder. Lee is referring to how he conceived the FF and Spidey:

 

 

I don't think Stan Lee 'conceived' the FF, Silver Surfer, Galactus or Spider-man. Page from Scioli's 'Jack Kirby' illustrated biography. Recommended reading and was part of Free Comic Book Day (FCBD) summer, 2020:

Edited September 19, 2020 by aardvark88
sp.

[kustomizer]

14 hours ago, bluechip said:

I doubt very much I will never have the same time, energy and desire to refute your assertions as you apparently have for making them.  But your premise was that Stan used a "ghost writer" and didn't write anything at all.  This quote has been brought out many times by people who want to assert Stan was trying to deceive people about the extent of his work, failing (each and every time I've seen it used) to point out that this quote was not something Stan was "caught" saying in secret, but something he said openly, on the record, and often. 

He wrote and/or edited literally thousands of comic scripts.  Of course he did not write every plot and every word himself, and of course, other people contributed.   

But why am I taking time to point out the obvious?  You have not just a theory, I suspect, but an agenda which will preclude any refutation as well as embrace any contradiction, in the service of that agenda.  Plus, apparently, a lot of time and determination you are willing to put into it.  

 

There's really no need to insult me personally and attack my character just because you don't agree with something I've said. And I'm not pushing some sinister anti-Stan agenda and and I'm not out to get anyone. Just trying to have a conversation about Silver Age Marvel. Congratulations on becoming my first Ignored User.

Edited September 19, 2020 by kustomizer

[kustomizer]

11 hours ago, aardvark88 said:

I don't think Stan Lee 'conceived' the FF, Silver Surfer, Galactus or Spider-man. Page from Scioli's 'Jack Kirby' illustrated biography. Recommended reading and was part of Free Comic Book Day (FCBD) summer, 2020:

Stan at least (originally) admitted in his Origins of Marvel Comics that Jack was solely resonsible for the Silver Surfer, as he (Stan) was surprised by the character when the pencils of FF#48 came back.

However, Stan later disowned his Origins of Marvel Comics anecdotes, saying he had exaggerated when he credited Kirby. From his 2010 Kirby lawsuit depositions:

'So I tried to write these—knowing Jack would read them, I tried to write them to make it look as if he and I were just doing everything together, to make him feel good. And we were doing it together. But with something like Galactus, it was me who said, “I want to do a demigod. I want to call him Galactus.” Jack said it was a great idea, and he drew a wonderful one and he did a great job on it. But in writing the book, I wanted to make it look as if we did it together. So I said we were both thinking about it, and we came up with Galactus.' And also 'I created Spider-Man, the Hulk, Iron Man, Thor, Daredevil, the X-Men, Nick Fury, the Avengers, Ant-Man/Giant Man, and the Rawhide Kid.'

I was deeply disappointed that Stan would do and say that.

Edited September 19, 2020 by kustomizer
additional info

[bluechip]

7 hours ago, kustomizer said:

There's really no need to insult me personally and attack my character just because you don't agree with something I've said. And I'm not pushing some sinister anti-Stan agenda and and I'm not out to get anyone. Just trying to have a conversation about Silver Age Marvel. Congratulations on becoming my first Ignored User.

You started with a premise that his wife ghost-wrote for him and then went very quickly into the standard suppositions that have been used by those with an "anti-Stan agenda" so you should expect people to think that.  And if I became an "ignored User" simply for countering your claims, I am sure I will be only the first of many to come as you prove my prediction that you will bristle at and refuse to consider any refutation.  

[kustomizer]

Just putting this out there...

Regarding the origin of Spidey, Kirby did both the cover and at least some of the story for Amazing Fantasy #15.

But as it became apparent that Kirby was already way over-stretched on FF, Thor etc, Stan Lee gave Spidey to Ditko to take it over and in the process re-do that first story.

Oddly, there's a story in FF Annual #1 (1963) in which the FF meet Spidey for the first time, drawn by Kirby. This is supposedly an expanded (6-page) version of the same sequence that had already appeared in Amazing Spider-Man #1 as drawn by Ditko.

Stan Lee explains to the readers on the first page of the Kirby version that this 're-done' story was the result of 'countless requests' to expand on the original 2-page Ditko version. Problem is, the Ditko version was just over 4 pages long, not 'merely 2'.

Many of the panels in both versions are nearly identical, so one artist was clearly copying the other. The Kirby version has a few additional action panels that don't add anything to the tale. So, the Kirby version is clearly redundant.

But I think it was done before the Ditko version and was intended for Amazing Fantasy #15 before Kirby was either taken off the project or opted off doing it.

It was probably supposed to have been part of Spidey's origin story. Stan Lee most likely just wanted to print the seemingly pointless Kirby version in FF Annual #1 as he would have already paid Kirby for the work.

Interestingly, Kirby had also drawn the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #1, although Ditko drew them all (except #10) after that.

All of this lends credence to the strong possibility that Kirby did in fact create at least the visual for Spider-Man, as he always maintained he did.

Oh, and there's also an 18-page Spidey-Torch team-up by Kirby in Strange Tales Annual #2, also from 1963.

Yes, Jack WAS busy indeed, and there was way more to come or already on the boil (Iron Man, Avengers, X-Men, Sgt Fury, etc).

[KCOComics]

7 hours ago, kustomizer said:

Just putting this out there...

Regarding the origin of Spidey, Kirby did both the cover and at least some of the story for Amazing Fantasy #15.

But as it became apparent that Kirby was already way over-stretched on FF, Thor etc, Stan Lee gave Spidey to Ditko to take it over and in the process re-do that first story.

Oddly, there's a story in FF Annual #1 (1963) in which the FF meet Spidey for the first time, drawn by Kirby. This is supposedly an expanded (6-page) version of the same sequence that had already appeared in Amazing Spider-Man #1 as drawn by Ditko.

Stan Lee explains to the readers on the first page of the Kirby version that this 're-done' story was the result of 'countless requests' to expand on the original 2-page Ditko version. Problem is, the Ditko version was just over 4 pages long, not 'merely 2'.

Many of the panels in both versions are nearly identical, so one artist was clearly copying the other. The Kirby version has a few additional action panels that don't add anything to the tale. So, the Kirby version is clearly redundant.

But I think it was done before the Ditko version and was intended for Amazing Fantasy #15 before Kirby was either taken off the project or opted off doing it.

It was probably supposed to have been part of Spidey's origin story. Stan Lee most likely just wanted to print the seemingly pointless Kirby version in FF Annual #1 as he would have already paid Kirby for the work.

Interestingly, Kirby had also drawn the cover of Amazing Spider-Man #1, although Ditko drew them all (except #10) after that.

All of this lends credence to the strong possibility that Kirby did in fact create at least the visual for Spider-Man, as he always maintained he did.

Oh, and there's also an 18-page Spidey-Torch team-up by Kirby in Strange Tales Annual #2, also from 1963.

Yes, Jack WAS busy indeed, and there was way more to come or already on the boil (Iron Man, Avengers, X-Men, Sgt Fury, etc).

I did a lot of reading on the origin of Spidey a few years ago. Ditko, at one time, drew this depiction of all the people who collaborated to create spiderman.  

He basically showed that Simon and Kirby's the fly was super influential, Kirby had a big role and steve and stan had big roles

His point was, it's hard to give credit to one person with any of these creations.  It was allot of collaboration by very creative and talented people. Stan, the artists, the inkers... 

I'll try to find the picture when I'm out of work because I really liked that depiction. 

 

 

Edit - i miss remembered steve's point. A lot less harmonious and a lot more anti-stan lol. 

I apologize. 

Edited September 22, 2020 by KCOComics
I actually did research

[kustomizer]

I wouldn't be too quick to dismiss Kirby as Spider-Man's creator, or at least a major instigator. Yes, Jack repeatedly stated he created Spider-Man's costume. After all, he drew the first image of Spider-Man ever seen by the public -- the cover of Amazing Fantasy #15. And Stan Lee always maintained that Kirby drew the first Spider-man story, which was supposedly rejected but (it can be argued) saw print in FF Annual #1 in 1963. And then there's the Simon-Kirby Fly character, created in 1959. This bug-based character could walk on walls and had a special sense that warned him of danger. I'll let that hang there. But I'll add that the Fly's arch-nemesis was fellow called Spider Spry who walked on a webline and trapped the Fly in web-like netting.

Sure, these are obvious powers and abilities for insect and arachnid based characters. But it's significant when their creator is denied his part in the creation of Spider-Man just a few years later.

 Additionally, it's speculated that Kirby actually created the Ben Cooper Halloween costume design -- which looks remarkably like Marvel's Spidey some 8 years in advance, back in 1954. Kirby did work for Cooper, so it's almost a slam dunk. Jack also had his own fly and spider-based superheroes and villains in the early-mid 1950s too. Unfortunately nobody ever knew to ask Kirby about the Cooper costume before he passed away in 1994. It could well be that kids wearing that Cooper Spider Man costume knocked on any one of the doors of Stan Lee, Steve Ditko, Jack Kirby and/or Martin Goodman in the 8 years' worth of Halloweens leading up to the first appearance of Spider-Man in comics.

For background on the Ben Cooper Spiderman costume:

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by kustomizer

[KCOComics]

22 minutes ago, kustomizer said:

Jack Kirby repeatedly stated he created Spider-Man's costume. It's speculated (and feasible) that Kirby actually created the Ben Cooper halloween costume design back in 1954, and it was later adapted for the Marvel Spidey in 1962. Kirby did indeed have his own fly and spider-based superheroes and villains in the early-mid 50s too. Unfortunately nobody ever knew to ask Kirby about the Cooper costume before he passed away in 1994.

For background on the Ben Cooper Spiderman costume:

 

I know the guy who runs Tellshiar.com 

He collects marvel memorabile has some really cool stuff. I wonder if he discovered the Ben Cooper catalog? 

 

[Math Teacher]

On 9/22/2020 at 6:22 AM, kustomizer said:

Just putting this out there...

Regarding the origin of Spidey, Kirby did both the cover and at least some of the story for Amazing Fantasy #15.

But as it became apparent that Kirby was already way over-stretched on FF, Thor etc, Stan Lee gave Spidey to Ditko to take it over and in the process re-do that first story.

The story that I read about most often is that Stan Lee thought Jack Kirby's version of Spider-Man looked "too heroic". So the book was given to Steve Ditko. Is the gospel truth? We'll never really know now.