1st appearance in comics after other media 1 1

[Ablation Steve]

Agreed, poorly phrased by me. Perhaps "shouldn't be worth much more than other comics from that title with close release dates."

I certainly understand supply and demand for comics, and yes, it's worth what people will pay. And I understand that comics that have appearances of certain characters are the ones people want. That will tweak the price up a little, like Star Wars 81. 

I'm simply putting it out there that the (IN COMICS) part gets forgotten in the phrase FIRST APPEARANCE (IN COMICS). These First Appearances seem to have a Barry Bonds record-breaking home run asterisk in my mind. (Then again, that ball sold for $750,000, so that doesn't help my argument.) 

It simply seems like, since comic collectors can't get their hands on a 70mm print of ESB, we overhype the first appearance in our preferred medium.

Here, let me ask a less contentious question. Would something like ASM #361 be worth as much as it is now is the character first appeared in a Spider-Man cartoon? Would Batman Adventures 12 be worth more if she'd never shown up in B:TAS?

[silversurfer275]

15 minutes ago, Stephen Beer said:

Agreed, poorly phrased by me. Perhaps "shouldn't be worth much more than other comics from that title with close release dates."

I certainly understand supply and demand for comics, and yes, it's worth what people will pay. And I understand that comics that have appearances of certain characters are the ones people want. That will tweak the price up a little, like Star Wars 81. 

I'm simply putting it out there that the (IN COMICS) part gets forgotten in the phrase FIRST APPEARANCE (IN COMICS). These First Appearances seem to have a Barry Bonds record-breaking home run asterisk in my mind. (Then again, that ball sold for $750,000, so that doesn't help my argument.) 

It simply seems like, since comic collectors can't get their hands on a 70mm print of ESB, we overhype the first appearance in our preferred medium.

Here, let me ask a less contentious question. Would something like ASM #361 be worth as much as it is now is the character first appeared in a Spider-Man cartoon? Would Batman Adventures 12 be worth more if she'd never shown up in B:TAS?

Honestly if carnage 1st appeared in a cartoon and still be very popular it would be the same price maybe even more if it has a lower print run

[valiantman]

11 minutes ago, Stephen Beer said:

Here, let me ask a less contentious question. Would something like ASM #361 be worth as much as it if now is the character first appeared in a Spider-Man cartoon? Would Batman Adventures 12 be worth more if she'd never shown up in B:TAS?

I don't think popular characters can be evaluated isolated from the other media that exists.  Would Mickey Mouse matter to anyone today if Walt Disney never built a theme park?  What's the most important Mickey Mouse collectible and is it related to his arrival in 1928 or did it show up years later?   

It is because Harley Quinn was popular in the cartoon that her comic book appearances matter.  It is because Carnage is popular in the comic books that his upcoming movie appearance generates excitement.  It is because both characters have more than one method (medium) of growing their popularity that there are also toys, costumes, and video games which have been collectible for decades.

There are very few popular characters/properties which don't include multiple media in what makes them "them".  When it comes to collecting those characters, people really do want what they want - regardless of where/when it happened... but getting "as close as possible" to the arrival of the character (in whatever preferred collectible medium or anywhere they appeared in any media) is also part of the fun for most collectors.

[F For Fake]

This doesn't bother me as much as the folks desperately digging to find an alternate "REAL!!" first appearance, like a coloring book, an ad in an earlier book, the cover of Amazing Heroes, etc. It's getting kind of ridiculous. Then again, if I don't care, I don't have to buy it.

[Ablation Steve]

"It is because both characters have more than one method (medium) of growing their popularity that there are also toys, costumes, and video games which have been collectible for decades."

This is probably the truest statement so far, and quite convincing. 

 

[Ablation Steve]

13 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

This doesn't bother me as much as the folks desperately digging to find an alternate "REAL!!" first appearance, like a coloring book, an ad in an earlier book, the cover of Amazing Heroes, etc. It's getting kind of ridiculous. Then again, if I don't care, I don't have to buy it.

True, the hype-beast is running with that one right now, aren't they? Marvel Age is a comic, so you can't say that it's not the first appearance in comics for some characters. But if you label their actual first appearance as "in continuity," then that boots out comics like B:TAS 12 because it's not in DC continuity. What's Rocket (Rocky) Raccoon's first appearance in comics, because Marvel Preview was magazine size? But then Marvel Preview pretty much has to count, because GA comics were larger than Modern, so Modern can't be the standard.

(and yeah, I do understand that there could be some argument as to whether or not Marvel Age is a comic or a comic-sized magazine.)

[EC Star&Bar]

31 minutes ago, F For Fake said:

This doesn't bother me as much as the folks desperately digging to find an alternate "REAL!!" first appearance, like a coloring book, an ad in an earlier book, the cover of Amazing Heroes, etc. It's getting kind of ridiculous. Then again, if I don't care, I don't have to buy it.

I don't actively collect that kind of stuff, but I want and expect early house ad appearances, poster artwork, etc. to be included in Omnibus books.  A lot of the ephemeral, ancillary stuff is not particularly hard to find, but as part of a character's history, it can make for interesting bonus material.

[miraclemet]

Ok let me see if i can say this.

Assuming two characters are of equal popularity (good luck measuring that!) and their first appearance in comics are of equal population (copies printed, copies slabbed) i would assume that the "1st appearance" character issue is valued higher than the "1st appearance in a comic" character issue.

[valiantman]

14 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

Ok let me see if i can say this.

Assuming two characters are of equal popularity (good luck measuring that!) and their first appearance in comics are of equal population (copies printed, copies slabbed) i would assume that the "1st appearance" character issue is valued higher than the "1st appearance in a comic" character issue.

There are at least two other requirements for a true test... 1) age of the comics need to be the same, 2) the characters need to have similar depictions in the other media (both are from animations or both are based on live actors, etc.).

Star Trek #1, Scooby Doo #1, Space Ghost #1, and The Green Hornet #1 have a lot in common (all four between 50 and 55 years old, all four from Gold Key, all four based on popular television series debuting a few months earlier).

Star Trek #1 and The Green Hornet #1 are comic book depictions of characters known first as live actors.

Scooby Doo #1 and Space Ghost #1 are comic book depictions of characters known first as drawings/animation.

An average CGC graded copy of Star Trek #1 is about $300, Scooby Doo #1 is about $600, Space Ghost #1 is about $300, and Green Hornet #1 is about $150.

The Star Trek franchise is easily the biggest of all four, but Scooby Doo #1 is the "winner" among these comics - most likely because it is based on drawn characters, rather than live actors. 

Either Green Hornet or Space Ghost is the least-known character, but Bruce Lee is still better known than Space Ghost --- yet the Space Ghost #1 sells for twice as much as Green Hornet #1.

Comics seem to be "valued more" when the original depiction is essentially a moving comic (animation).

Animation vs. actor is likely why the average CGC graded Harley Quinn first appearance in comics (Batman Adventures #12, twenty-five years later) is worth nearly the same as Scooby Doo #1, while the average CGC graded Star Wars #42 (Boba Fett) is much closer in value to the Green Hornet.

[jjonahjameson11]

On 9/16/2020 at 3:50 PM, Stephen Beer said:

Blanket, opinionated statement: Comics should not be worth more when a character first appears in other media. The first appearance in comics of Boba Fett or Ahsoka or Harley Quinn should not be worth more than any other comic they appear in, because their actual first appearance is in other media. 
 

Discuss!

Here’s my blanket, opinionated statement:

i nominate this topic as the dumbest ever posted on the CGC message boards.

[F For Fake]

3 hours ago, Stephen Beer said:

True, the hype-beast is running with that one right now, aren't they? Marvel Age is a comic, so you can't say that it's not the first appearance in comics for some characters. But if you label their actual first appearance as "in continuity," then that boots out comics like B:TAS 12 because it's not in DC continuity. What's Rocket (Rocky) Raccoon's first appearance in comics, because Marvel Preview was magazine size? But then Marvel Preview pretty much has to count, because GA comics were larger than Modern, so Modern can't be the standard.

(and yeah, I do understand that there could be some argument as to whether or not Marvel Age is a comic or a comic-sized magazine.)

Marvel Age selling the way it has is certainly a sign of the apocalypse. But on the flip side (or the flipper side) I've certainly made a lot of money selling Marvel Age to folks. I bought a near complete set of Marvel Age last year for about $17. Did very well. And a bonus is that I don't have any regrets about selling them, as I don't collect them myself.

[F For Fake]

3 hours ago, EC Star&Bar said:

I don't actively collect that kind of stuff, but I want and expect early house ad appearances, poster artwork, etc. to be included in Omnibus books.  A lot of the ephemeral, ancillary stuff is not particularly hard to find, but as part of a character's history, it can make for interesting bonus material.

I definitely think people should collect what they love, and not have to apologize for it. I personally love promo posters and point of sale promotions from shops. That stuff is great. So my beef isn't with the stuff itself, or the collectors of said stuff. The part I find amusing is the seemingly never ending stream of newly discovered "first appearances". But to be clear, people should buy what they like.

[valiantman]

18 minutes ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Here’s my blanket, opinionated statement:

i nominate this topic as the dumbest ever posted on the CGC message boards.

Seems like the 23rd through 47th topics that were started to ask what the declared value should be on the CGC submission form would be slightly dumber.

Edited September 17, 2020 by valiantman

[miraclemet]

@valiantman great examples I'll have to noodle on later. The one caveat is that animation IPs remained largely unchanged (ie Scooby still looks and acts like Scooby) while real actor IP has aged and been recast (like Star Trek). So that may have an effect too.

But great examples to use for analysis!

 

[valiantman]

2 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

@valiantman great examples I'll have to noodle on later. The one caveat is that animation IPs remained largely unchanged (ie Scooby still looks and acts like Scooby) while real actor IP has aged and been recast (like Star Trek). So that may have an effect too.

But great examples to use for analysis!

 

Good point on the change of actors possibly being a factor, however, I would point out the reason the actor changes is usually because the franchise is being revived/rebooted - which brings new attention to the originals and may be more meaningful overall to the positive than the actor change is to the negative.

[Ablation Steve]

1 hour ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Here’s my blanket, opinionated statement:

i nominate this topic as the dumbest ever posted on the CGC message boards.

You have hurt my feelings. I am simply glad that others appear to be enjoying themselves and providing excellent analysis and information.

[Ablation Steve]

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

There are at least two other requirements for a true test... 1) age of the comics need to be the same, 2) the characters need to have similar depictions in the other media (both are from animations or both are based on live actors, etc.).

Star Trek #1, Scooby Doo #1, Space Ghost #1, and The Green Hornet #1 have a lot in common (all four between 50 and 55 years old, all four from Gold Key, all four based on popular television series debuting a few months earlier).

Star Trek #1 and The Green Hornet #1 are comic book depictions of characters known first as live actors.

Scooby Doo #1 and Space Ghost #1 are comic book depictions of characters known first as drawings/animation.

An average CGC graded copy of Star Trek #1 is about $300, Scooby Doo #1 is about $600, Space Ghost #1 is about $300, and Green Hornet #1 is about $150.

The Star Trek franchise is easily the biggest of all four, but Scooby Doo #1 is the "winner" among these comics - most likely because it is based on drawn characters, rather than live actors. 

Either Green Hornet or Space Ghost is the least-known character, but Bruce Lee is still better known than Space Ghost --- yet the Space Ghost #1 sells for twice as much as Green Hornet #1.

Comics seem to be "valued more" when the original depiction is essentially a moving comic (animation).

Animation vs. actor is likely why the average CGC graded Harley Quinn first appearance in comics (Batman Adventures #12, twenty-five years later) is worth nearly the same as Scooby Doo #1, while the average CGC graded Star Wars #42 (Boba Fett) is much closer in value to the Green Hornet.

That was an incredible analysis, thank you for shining some light on the subject.

[William-James88]

9 hours ago, Stephen Beer said:

Would Batman Adventures 12 be worth more if she'd never shown up in B:TAS?

If Harley only appeared in that comic and not on the show, she'd probably be less popular and thus never entering the cultural zeitgeist as she has now, which would make her comic worth A LOT less.

And let me ask you this, what about Journey into Mystery 83? Stories of Thor had been around for over 1000 years before that comic, by your line of questioning, there is no reason for that comic to be worth much of anything. 

[Lazyboy]

4 hours ago, valiantman said:

5 hours ago, miraclemet said:

Ok let me see if i can say this.

Assuming two characters are of equal popularity (good luck measuring that!) and their first appearance in comics are of equal population (copies printed, copies slabbed) i would assume that the "1st appearance" character issue is valued higher than the "1st appearance in a comic" character issue.

There are at least two other requirements for a true test... 1) age of the comics need to be the same, 2) the characters need to have similar depictions in the other media (both are from animations or both are based on live actors, etc.).

I don't see how either of those are relevant if the characters actually have equal demand (popularity) and there is equal supply of their 1st appearances. Of course, as mentioned, popularity is hardly simple to measure and supply may not be much, if any, easier.

[thunsicker]

4 hours ago, valiantman said:

5 hours ago, jjonahjameson11 said:

Here’s my blanket, opinionated statement:

i nominate this topic as the dumbest ever posted on the CGC message boards.

Seems like the 23rd through 47th topics that were started to ask what the declared value should be on the CGC submission form would be slightly dumber.

Yeah, I can think of dozens of threads that are dumber than this one.