Hulk 180 & 181 Roy Thomas 0

[dcny200]

Hi All,

Please let me know your thoughts on getting Roy Thomas' signature on a Hulk 180 and 181. While he says he helped create Wolverine his name doesn't show up on the label. Should I get his signature or hold?

Thank you!

[KCOComics]

On 10/17/2020 at 12:38 AM, dcny200 said:

Hi All,

Please let me know your thoughts on getting Roy Thomas' signature on a Hulk 180 and 181. While he says he helped create Wolverine his name doesn't show up on the label. Should I get his signature or hold?

Thank you!

Not allot of love for this topic I guess? 

I guess it comes down to personal preference. I'm not a big signature series guy to begin with, but there are a few artists / creaters I would like to get. Like Bernie Wrightson on  HOM or HOS. 

But I wouldn't buy a Bernie sig on a book he isn't credited for working on. I think allot of people will feel that way about Roy. 

Honestly, I wouldn't buy a 181 with a stan Lee signature either... i see those as well. I know he's stan and he and Jack created the big fella, but the reason its a key comic has nothing to do with Stan.  

[MisterX]

Why do you want to do this? Is it because you think it'll make the books more valuable? Or because you really dig Roy Thomas?

I don't see 180/181 getting a bump from a Thomas signature.

My recommendation would be for you to get his signature on the 1st app of a character he really did co-create, like Morbius (with Gil kane) or Iron Fist (again with Gil Kane).

[Randall Ries]

I'll bite. I agree with the Stan Lee thing. He gets way more credit than he deserves for "creating" characters. Also, I have a problem with Wolverine.

I remember a contest Marvel Comics featured in the 1970's. About fans who were kids submitting their ideas for a new hero or villian. A kid subbed his drawing and idea of Wolverine and he won. I even remember the drawing. Marvel then basically made millions off the character and the kid got zip. No recognition at all and quite the opposite. Then Stan Lee runs his mouth for the rest of his life about being the creator and blah blah blah. So, I wouldn't buy or want any of those 3 books signed by anyone but Trimpe.

[ADAMANTIUM]

Roy Thomas did the 1st appearance of ADAMANTIUM, that would be a cool ss'd book

Edited October 21, 2020 by ADAMANTIUM

[Math Teacher]

On 10/16/2020 at 11:38 PM, dcny200 said:

Hi All,

Please let me know your thoughts on getting Roy Thomas' signature on a Hulk 180 and 181. While he says he helped create Wolverine his name doesn't show up on the label. Should I get his signature or hold?

Thank you!

The only people I would let sign a book are the creators (writer, penciller, inker). I never understand why people had Stan Lee sign a copy of Amazing Spider-Man #300. Yes, Stan Lee was a co-creator of Spider-Man, but he was long past being part of the creative process when ASM #300 was released.

[MR SigS]

On 10/21/2020 at 3:07 PM, Joe Ankenbauer said:

The only people I would let sign a book are the creators (writer, penciller, inker). I never understand why people had Stan Lee sign a copy of Amazing Spider-Man #300. Yes, Stan Lee was a co-creator of Spider-Man, but he was long past being part of the creative process when ASM #300 was released.

I'd think some Stan-signed comics were done just because he was considered by many 'casual' collectors/super-hero fans to be Marvel comics. "Stan Lee Presents:" at the top of countless splash pages saw to that  

[ADAMANTIUM]

13 minutes ago, MR SigS said:

I'd think some Stan-signed comics were done just because he was considered by many 'casual' collectors/super-hero fans to be Marvel comics. "Stan Lee Presents:" at the top of countless splash pages saw to that  

I agree to I point. Like I have some of those yellow label, but some see that as an opportunity to do with other artists (in a way), so I see that can be a turn off for even Stan SS

But in the end as long as there are "some" buyers, or some collectors that want the niche, there should be enough to buy what you want and make everyone happy  

That's the main thing. As far as advice, there are pro's a con's to everything. Fact based or opinion based. The main thing is making your own choice!

then you'll be happy  

On 10/16/2020 at 11:38 PM, dcny200 said:

Hi All,

Please let me know your thoughts on getting Roy Thomas' signature on a Hulk 180 and 181. While he says he helped create Wolverine his name doesn't show up on the label. Should I get his signature or hold?

Thank you!

 

[GAMBIT]

It all comes down to your reason.  Is it for added value? (in terms of Thomas on the Hulk 180/181. id say minimal, if that).  is it for fandom of Roy Thomas? (if so, go for it!).

Im leaning more towards your interest is adding value and selling. if so,  I wouldn't get it signed if its a higher graded book (7.5/8.0 + ).  if its lower. why not. it may add a couple bucks. He was the editor and all.      

[Artboy99]

On ‎10‎/‎20‎/‎2020 at 8:26 PM, Randall Ries said:

I'll bite. I agree with the Stan Lee thing. He gets way more credit than he deserves for "creating" characters. Also, I have a problem with Wolverine.

I remember a contest Marvel Comics featured in the 1970's. About fans who were kids submitting their ideas for a new hero or villian. A kid subbed his drawing and idea of Wolverine and he won. I even remember the drawing. Marvel then basically made millions off the character and the kid got zip. No recognition at all and quite the opposite. Then Stan Lee runs his mouth for the rest of his life about being the creator and blah blah blah. So, I wouldn't buy or want any of those 3 books signed by anyone but Trimpe.

The art was published in FOOM #2 in 1973 .. a full year before Wolverine appeared in 1974.

Here is what Andy Olsen ( the "kid" ) had to say about it:

Funny how some things stick with you.

It all started in the dark ages. So long ago it would be easy to forget.

The time of analog.

Boys my age had fewer creative outlets, computers were almost science fiction, gaming consisted of various boards and cards made of paper.

Paper. The ancient medium of Gutenberg was my entertainment refuge in the form of printed color comic books and Marvel was the publisher of my fantasy world.

Much of my school age days were consumed with buying, reading, collecting and discussing with my friends comic book hero plot lines, and artworks of the giants – Jack Kirby, John Romita, Steve Ditko to name a few were almost revered and Stan Lee ruled them all.

It inspired me to draw and create my own versions of what I hungrily read and blow my meager allowance money on issue after issue. Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Fantastic 4, I was totally into the Marvel Universe.

So I think in 1973 or 4 Stan Lee announced a magazine catering to his fan base called FOOM (Friends Of Marvel – what the Os stood for eludes me..Obnoxious? Oligarch?..Opportunist? ..Oh well..) I happily subscribed. As I recall it was a cheaply printed 2 or 3 colored mag supposedly under direction of The Man himself.

At that time I was mediocre scholastically but not too bad in art class with dreams of becoming an artist, perhaps a comic book artist. I was a sketching fiend drawing incessantly anything that struck my fancy.

Sometime during the short production of FOOM Stan ( I really don't know if it was him personally but his name was all over it so I'll refer it all to him. Yes I know it was never a one man show there. ) announced a fan contest.

Hey kids! Design your own superhero! or villain! – send in your idea, sketch to us and Stan himself will pick the winner! The winner will become a Marvel comic book hero! WOW!!

I knew there would be hundreds of entries but just the thought of The Man actually seeing my work was simply too exciting to pass up.

So I gave it some thought.

First you need a a name.. For some reason it always seems to describe the hero.

You never have a superhero named Larry or Bob.

So I looked for an interesting name to build off.

Bats, nope, spiders, done, koalas, too cute.

I had heard of a creature called wolverine. From what I knew it was reputed to be pound for pound meanest animal on Earth. Not even Grizzly bears would tangle with one. A worthy attitude to have when fighting crime. Wolverine it was.

So I set on using that as a base concept. If you notice in my adolescent sketch there is a pattern on the back of his costume that mimics the fur shading of the animal as well as the front mask sort of like the markings of its head.

The details other than that eludes me, but looking back at the sketch he seemed to have a metal skeleton and no claws, because I couldn't imagine a superhero scratching an opponent. Sissies scratch.

I sat down and worked up my sketches eventually working up a finished drawing to send off.

I also created a villain named Krypt. As I recall he was a part cyborg fellow who was pissed off at almost everything.  I thought the name sounded cool…

God, does anyone use "cool" anymore?

Well some weeks went by and the issue announcing the contest results was delivered.

To my surprise and pleasure both my entries made it to the runner ups or honorable mention. The winner was called Hu-man or something like that. Good for him.

I knew hundreds of other kids were out there just as excited and creative as I so the fact that Stan Lee took time off his coffee break to sort through a stack of kid's sketches and toss mine into the "do not trash" pile was a thrill.

No money, trophy, or notice was given just a reprint of my sketches in an obscure fan magazine.

Excited, I mentioned this to my uncle who was an established commercial artist on Madison Avenue (that's in NYC for those who don't know) who replied: "You did WHAT?? You insufficiently_thoughtful_person! Don't you know what these guys did? They pulled ideas from you kids, make money off it and payed you NOTHING!!" Probably using other colorful words. But that's the best I could remember. Feel free to insert your own.

I felt rather used and stupid.

That was the end of it, time moved on and so did I. Even comics lost my interest, but not art as a field of study.

Fast forward a few years later as a college student I passed as comic book stand and noticed a large X-Men Marvel title: Wolverine.

WTF..and really-XMEN?

Of all the Marvel heroes- X-Men I felt were the bottom feeders.

Then it hit me. I had been had..Uncle was right.

My regard for Marvel and Stan Lee was so high it never dawned on me the contest was harvesting concepts to breath some freshness into their line up.

I recall also seeing the title Krypt in another comic, but the damage was already done.

I toyed with the idea of pursuing it.. I could not recall if a waiver was part of the contest. I never signed one or read anything stating entering the contest removed all rights from the originator.

I was an art student.. If I was pre law perhaps things would be different..

Could Marvel claim plausible deniability? Perhaps. They did add their own scratchy claws and scruffy beard.

Nice they kept the metal skeleton I roughed out -what ever adamantium is.

I often wondered, It's quite possible other titles in use today are from ideas from other kids that entered along with me. Who would know?

So I chalked it up to a lesson learned and concentrated on my own career in graphic design.

I made a point to never enter such contests again and council others to be wary as well.

With one exception.

In later years I joined Siggraph and entered some 3D animation into a contest which placed in the gold category. I felt secure that the recognition was genuine and the whole thing was altruistic in purpose.

So there it is.

Is this a case of ripping off a naïve kid's concept or simply a large multi-million dollar publishing company creating a character completely on its own and this all an interesting coincidence.

Any legal scholars are welcome to give an opinion.

I thank you, Rich for seeking me out all the way from the other side of the pond to remind me and give me a little recognition.

Perhaps my aspiration came true after all.

If anyone would like to see what I have been up to:

http://ao-portfolio.squarespace.com/graphic-design/

If you like what you see please send me a post.

Please don't rip me off.. again.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Artboy99

[Randall Ries]

2 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

The art was published in FOOM #2 in 1973 .. a full year before Wolverine appeared in 1974.

Here is what Andy Olsen ( the "kid" ) had to say about it:

Funny how some things stick with you.

It all started in the dark ages. So long ago it would be easy to forget.

The time of analog.

Boys my age had fewer creative outlets, computers were almost science fiction, gaming consisted of various boards and cards made of paper.

Paper. The ancient medium of Gutenberg was my entertainment refuge in the form of printed color comic books and Marvel was the publisher of my fantasy world.

Much of my school age days were consumed with buying, reading, collecting and discussing with my friends comic book hero plot lines, and artworks of the giants – Jack Kirby, John Romita, Steve Ditko to name a few were almost revered and Stan Lee ruled them all.

It inspired me to draw and create my own versions of what I hungrily read and blow my meager allowance money on issue after issue. Thor, Captain America, Hulk, Iron Man, Fantastic 4, I was totally into the Marvel Universe.

So I think in 1973 or 4 Stan Lee announced a magazine catering to his fan base called FOOM (Friends Of Marvel – what the Os stood for eludes me..Obnoxious? Oligarch?..Opportunist? ..Oh well..) I happily subscribed. As I recall it was a cheaply printed 2 or 3 colored mag supposedly under direction of The Man himself.

At that time I was mediocre scholastically but not too bad in art class with dreams of becoming an artist, perhaps a comic book artist. I was a sketching fiend drawing incessantly anything that struck my fancy.

Sometime during the short production of FOOM Stan ( I really don't know if it was him personally but his name was all over it so I'll refer it all to him. Yes I know it was never a one man show there. ) announced a fan contest.

Hey kids! Design your own superhero! or villain! – send in your idea, sketch to us and Stan himself will pick the winner! The winner will become a Marvel comic book hero! WOW!!

I knew there would be hundreds of entries but just the thought of The Man actually seeing my work was simply too exciting to pass up.

So I gave it some thought.

First you need a a name.. For some reason it always seems to describe the hero.

You never have a superhero named Larry or Bob.

So I looked for an interesting name to build off.

Bats, nope, spiders, done, koalas, too cute.

I had heard of a creature called wolverine. From what I knew it was reputed to be pound for pound meanest animal on Earth. Not even Grizzly bears would tangle with one. A worthy attitude to have when fighting crime. Wolverine it was.

So I set on using that as a base concept. If you notice in my adolescent sketch there is a pattern on the back of his costume that mimics the fur shading of the animal as well as the front mask sort of like the markings of its head.

The details other than that eludes me, but looking back at the sketch he seemed to have a metal skeleton and no claws, because I couldn't imagine a superhero scratching an opponent. Sissies scratch.

I sat down and worked up my sketches eventually working up a finished drawing to send off.

I also created a villain named Krypt. As I recall he was a part cyborg fellow who was pissed off at almost everything.  I thought the name sounded cool…

God, does anyone use "cool" anymore?

Well some weeks went by and the issue announcing the contest results was delivered.

To my surprise and pleasure both my entries made it to the runner ups or honorable mention. The winner was called Hu-man or something like that. Good for him.

I knew hundreds of other kids were out there just as excited and creative as I so the fact that Stan Lee took time off his coffee break to sort through a stack of kid's sketches and toss mine into the "do not trash" pile was a thrill.

No money, trophy, or notice was given just a reprint of my sketches in an obscure fan magazine.

Excited, I mentioned this to my uncle who was an established commercial artist on Madison Avenue (that's in NYC for those who don't know) who replied: "You did WHAT?? You insufficiently_thoughtful_person! Don't you know what these guys did? They pulled ideas from you kids, make money off it and payed you NOTHING!!" Probably using other colorful words. But that's the best I could remember. Feel free to insert your own.

I felt rather used and stupid.

That was the end of it, time moved on and so did I. Even comics lost my interest, but not art as a field of study.

Fast forward a few years later as a college student I passed as comic book stand and noticed a large X-Men Marvel title: Wolverine.

WTF..and really-XMEN?

Of all the Marvel heroes- X-Men I felt were the bottom feeders.

Then it hit me. I had been had..Uncle was right.

My regard for Marvel and Stan Lee was so high it never dawned on me the contest was harvesting concepts to breath some freshness into their line up.

I recall also seeing the title Krypt in another comic, but the damage was already done.

I toyed with the idea of pursuing it.. I could not recall if a waiver was part of the contest. I never signed one or read anything stating entering the contest removed all rights from the originator.

I was an art student.. If I was pre law perhaps things would be different..

Could Marvel claim plausible deniability? Perhaps. They did add their own scratchy claws and scruffy beard.

Nice they kept the metal skeleton I roughed out -what ever adamantium is.

I often wondered, It's quite possible other titles in use today are from ideas from other kids that entered along with me. Who would know?

So I chalked it up to a lesson learned and concentrated on my own career in graphic design.

I made a point to never enter such contests again and council others to be wary as well.

With one exception.

In later years I joined Siggraph and entered some 3D animation into a contest which placed in the gold category. I felt secure that the recognition was genuine and the whole thing was altruistic in purpose.

So there it is.

Is this a case of ripping off a naïve kid's concept or simply a large multi-million dollar publishing company creating a character completely on its own and this all an interesting coincidence.

Any legal scholars are welcome to give an opinion.

I thank you, Rich for seeking me out all the way from the other side of the pond to remind me and give me a little recognition.

Perhaps my aspiration came true after all.

If anyone would like to see what I have been up to:

http://ao-portfolio.squarespace.com/graphic-design/

If you like what you see please send me a post.

Please don't rip me off.. again.

THAT IS EXACTLY IT. Thanks for reprinting this. I can recall it semi-clearly at the time. The winner was announced in FOOM then nothing. Then Wolverine. Even as a 12 year old kid at the time, I knew the "kid" had been hacked. A lot of kids entered that contest. I could draw. Still can to a degree. I knew what Marvel was up to and didn't submit any ideas I had. Since that time, Marvel Comics Group galled me to a degree. I pretty much concentrated on DC after that. I remember thinking "good" when Marvel teetered on bankruptcy.

Stan Lee wasn't as bad then as he got later in life by claiming he was a genius and sole creator of different characters. In later years, I would read various interviews with him and see them on television and he got bolder and bolder. Since no one seemed to be challenging him, he pretty much began saying he created the universe and all matter in it. I'm really surprised he never claimed he created Superman while sitting in the john in 1938, left his sketches on the sink and those creeps Siegel and Shuster ripped HIM off.

The only thing of any value Stan Lee ever said in his later years (IMO) was about golden age comic books: (Paraphrasing) "These new comic books are printed in the 10's of thousands. There will always be multiple copies of those to be had. Huge press runs. But the golden age books are the ones that are rare. Those are the ones to be treasured and kept. We can only be custodians of those and maybe we will pass them to our children or grandchildren and they will become the custodians of them. Those are the truly remarkable books."

It was good to hear come out of his self promoting mouth. Something that was completely separate from HIM and a pretty good observation. Beyond that, I will always remember that contest and how Marvel ran a contest to grift little kids who collected comics and who could draw. Their fan base.

[KCOComics]

5 hours ago, Artboy99 said:

 

Thank you for posting this. I had never heard it. 

I love the original sketch Andy created.