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How much do "breakdowns" change value vs full pencils
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There are some pages I have seen where a major artist is listed as the penciller, but in fact the pencils were only breakdowns with usually the inker doing the finishes and the inks. I have seen this in a few cases with John Buscema pages. How much does this change the value vs if the pencils were fully by Buscema or the other artist?

Also should the dealer/auction house state that the pencils were breakdown only? Or is the due diligence the job of the buyer?

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Think of the house as a used car dealer, in a distress sale, with pre-conditions about returns, complaints,

disclosures, and shenanigans.  Do you raise your bid, yes or no?  Quickly, please!

So, yes, due diligence is the job of the buyer.

Like a real estate broker, the auction service is working for the consignor to get the most out of a lot.

Now, when buyers put great faith in a house's reputation, and bid way up, both the house's reputation

and the winner's pocketbook can get burned around the edges, but that's the game.

 

Edited by aokartman
text clarify
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I asked John Romita Sr. This very question years ago......As some of his ASM art issues with Jim Mooney were stated as "ROMITA BREAKDOWNS"... and I was curious myself what this meant to him since he was the BREAKDOWN artist on some of these books

John told me that breakdowns are pencils, but you just didnt fine tune it perfectly in every way.

John said that PENCILS and Breakdowns ARE (and I'm quoting John) "Essentially they are the same thing but that with breakdowns, Tiny things maybe didn't get drawn.....like fingernails!"

Edited by romitaman
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This answer has many facets. 

Should an auction house do their diligence? Absolutely. As a professional auction house, they are seen as the expert and are pushing to get as much money for their consignors as possible. That places a huge onus on them to "get it right" when listing artwork. As the scale and price points of this hobby continues to move upward, this responsibility bears more weight. 

Should a buyer do their diligence? Personally, I also say absolutely but buyers aren't always experts and so I feel this, again, falls more on the auction house. 

There are always going to be scenarios where something like breakdowns aren't a widely known fact, or if a replacement past up was added, etc. This should be the exception scenario for a reputable auction house and not commonplace. 

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5 hours ago, romitaman said:

I asked John Romita Sr. This very question years ago......As some of his ASM art issues with Jim Mooney were stated as "ROMITA BREAKDOWNS"... and I was curious myself what this meant to him since he was the BREAKDOWN artist on some of these books

John told me that breakdowns are pencils, but you just didnt fine tune it perfectly in every way.

John said that PENCILS and Breakdowns ARE (and I'm quoting John) "Essentially they are the same thing but that with breakdowns, Tiny things maybe didn't get drawn.....like fingernails!"

Good information for John Romita Sr. ... but even this can vary by artist as I have seen many breakdowns that don't meet this level of detail. It can vary greatly by artist/team

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25 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

Good information for John Romita Sr. ... but even this can vary by artist as I have seen many breakdowns that don't meet this level of detail. It can vary greatly by artist/team

True, and other concept/idea artist(s) may have created the original layout in various degrees of definition before it even reaches the breakdown stage.

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14 hours ago, romitaman said:

John said that PENCILS and Breakdowns ARE (and I'm quoting John) "Essentially they are the same thing but that with breakdowns, Tiny things maybe didn't get drawn.....like fingernails!"

I would expect the fingernails to be left to the inker.  Of course the pencils and inks could've been by the same person.  Brave & Bold 79 by Neal Adams

 

nails.jpg

Edited by Will_K
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On 11/19/2020 at 5:01 PM, AnkurJ said:

There are some pages I have seen where a major artist is listed as the penciller, but in fact the pencils were only breakdowns with usually the inker doing the finishes and the inks. I have seen this in a few cases with John Buscema pages. How much does this change the value vs if the pencils were fully by Buscema or the other artist?

Also should the dealer/auction house state that the pencils were breakdown only? Or is the due diligence the job of the buyer?

Yes.

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1 hour ago, zhamlau said:

What always got me was “breakdowns” versus “layouts”. What’s exactly the difference there?

I interpret them by rank in the production process, with increasing levels of detail and resemblance to the final product, the actual book.

So, layouts, breakdowns, pencils, bluelines, inks, xeroxes, maybe then go to color guides, acetates, then the actual book as it came off the press.  David

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43 minutes ago, aokartman said:

I interpret them by rank in the production process, with increasing levels of detail and resemblance to the final product, the actual book.

So, layouts, breakdowns, pencils, bluelines, inks, xeroxes, maybe then go to color guides, acetates, then the actual book as it came off the press.  David

It would be cool to get all of those parts of the process for one page. That would make for a pretty sweet display, imo. I wonder, are there any dealers that offer this type of service? 

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14 minutes ago, Latverian Tourism Board said:

It would be cool to get all of those parts of the process for one page. That would make for a pretty sweet display, imo. I wonder, are there any dealers that offer this type of service? 

That actually sounds like a great commission idea for the old hands that are still with us, suggestion: Sal Buscema.

Of course there are many others too.

But not the new digital dudes...they're not going to deliver what's actually desired here, IMHO.

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I think "breakdowns" is more of a Marvel term.  To me, "layouts" is more of a DC term and not really common. 

And as far as DC goes, I recall "layouts" usually attributed to Joe Kubert more than any other person.  For example, DC war, Ragman, Rima.  And the published art sometimes showed a good amount of Kubert's influence.  And on occasion, I think Kubert would also go back and touch up the the inks as well, so a little circular.

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1 hour ago, vodou said:

That actually sounds like a great commission idea for the old hands that are still with us, suggestion: Sal Buscema.

Of course there are many others too.

But not the new digital dudes...they're not going to deliver what's actually desired here, IMHO.

Thank you, that’s a great idea for a commission. I hadn’t considered that idea. I might check a few lists to see who’s open. 
 

Right, that’s a good point, too. Makes sense. 

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6 hours ago, Will_K said:

I think "breakdowns" is more of a Marvel term.  To me, "layouts" is more of a DC term and not really common. 

And as far as DC goes, I recall "layouts" usually attributed to Joe Kubert more than any other person.  For example, DC war, Ragman, Rima.  And the published art sometimes showed a good amount of Kubert's influence.  And on occasion, I think Kubert would also go back and touch up the the inks as well, so a little circular.

Marvel used layouts and breakdowns both. I would like to know what the exact editors definition of each was.

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