Why is a Blue label better than a Purple?

[sterlingcomics]

And by the way, don't think that by agreeing with him he'll be nice to you. David tried that and JC spat in his face.

 

[uclapeterg]

I need to get some work done, so I'll leave this thread with one last comment:

 

I steadfastly refuse to support a change in the CGC grading structure that will reward sellers like a "key comic dealer" on EBay, and potentially make the restoration practice more lucrative, and lead to even more books going under the knife.

 

When was the last time you had a positive comment about anything?

 

I personally agree with JC here, FFB. I think that indicating degree of restoration is a GREAT idea and communicates more info (which isn't a CGC trend btw). However, If restored goes blue, then why don't we change the signature series and Qualified slabs into Blue as well. The arguments could be made for those as well (which I don't agree with).

 

So, in the grade, just put U for Universal, Q for qualified, R for restored, and SS for Signature series, and make it a nice generic blue label. or better yet, allow the customer select from any one of 256 colors, since color will now be irrelevant.

 

And by the way, don't think that by agreeing with him he'll be nice to you. David tried that and JC spat in his face.

 

I can vouch for that. I agree with him sometimes.

[uclapeterg]

I need to get some work done, so I'll leave this thread with one last comment:

 

I steadfastly refuse to support a change in the CGC grading structure that will reward sellers like a "key comic dealer" on EBay, and potentially make the restoration practice more lucrative, and lead to even more books going under the knife.

 

When was the last time you had a positive comment about anything?

 

I personally agree with JC here, FFB. I think that indicating degree of restoration is a GREAT idea and communicates more info (which isn't a CGC trend btw). However, If restored goes blue, then why don't we change the signature series and Qualified slabs into Blue as well. The arguments could be made for those as well (which I don't agree with).

 

So, in the grade, just put U for Universal, Q for qualified, R for restored, and SS for Signature series, and make it a nice generic blue label. or better yet, allow the customer select from any one of 256 colors, since color will now be irrelevant.

 

Qualified books WILL get blue slabs under the new system. Sig series books will remain yellow because the yellow label is considered a positive in the marketplace, not a stigmatization.

 

Are qualified books going to get a numerical equivalent as well?

[FFB]

I need to get some work done, so I'll leave this thread with one last comment:

 

I steadfastly refuse to support a change in the CGC grading structure that will reward sellers like a "key comic dealer" on EBay, and potentially make the restoration practice more lucrative, and lead to even more books going under the knife.

 

When was the last time you had a positive comment about anything?

 

I personally agree with JC here, FFB. I think that indicating degree of restoration is a GREAT idea and communicates more info (which isn't a CGC trend btw). However, If restored goes blue, then why don't we change the signature series and Qualified slabs into Blue as well. The arguments could be made for those as well (which I don't agree with).

 

So, in the grade, just put U for Universal, Q for qualified, R for restored, and SS for Signature series, and make it a nice generic blue label. or better yet, allow the customer select from any one of 256 colors, since color will now be irrelevant.

 

Qualified books WILL get blue slabs under the new system. Sig series books will remain yellow because the yellow label is considered a positive in the marketplace, not a stigmatization.

 

Are qualified books going to get a numerical equivalent as well?

 

I dunno, Peter, that's a really good question. Steve did say that qualified books would go into a blue label, but I was so focused on the restored book angle that I neglected to ask him how the qualified books would work.

 

For qualified books with a huge defect that keeps them out of the "universal" higher grade (like a popped top staple or a 2" tear on the back cover of an otherwise 9.8 book), my preference would be for them to improve on the way that PGX does it, which is to list both a "qualified" grade and an "actual" grade on the label. The way PGX does it now is that it puts the "actual" grade in the big box, but the notes on the label say "Would be 9.0 if not for 2" tear on back cover." I would like to see CGC do something similar, but without burying the information in the small text of the notes.

 

For qualified books with replaced staples, I'm guessing they'll get treated somewhat like restored books with the staple replacement being noted and perhaps the assignation of a restoration score.

[AussieRuss]

I am a supporter of retaining the purple label for restored books.

To me the perceived "Bad Vibe" that goes with the purple label will change over time.

 

What happens in a few generations time when its nearly impossible to get that G/A book in a mid to high universal grade??? I believe that people will then start to look at restored books in a more positive light. Someone has already mentioned that the price payable for PLOD books is on the rise.

 

If I was after a certain book that had a Pedigree status I would not think twice about purchasing it just because that label is a different color.

 

Besides it helps me remember the pricing order of Johnny Walker whisky

 

Johnny Walker Blue label =expensive

Johnny Walker Green label =somewhere in the middle

Johnny Walker Red/Purple label= nice and cheap but still good.

 

Now just create my dream Black label for Pedigree's books and all will be well within the world.

 

Regards,

 

Russ..

 

[FFB]

I don't think I am getting your point about how any of this justifies keeping the purple label? Whether or not restored books in purple label slabs generally increase in value in the near or not-so-near future isn't relevant, is it? And when you say "a few generations time," do you mean we have to wait 60 years before the PLOD stigma wears off?

 

I am a supporter of retaining the purple label for restored books.

To me the perceived "Bad Vibe" that goes with the purple label will change over time.

 

What happens in a few generations time when its nearly impossible to get that G/A book in a mid to high universal grade??? I believe that people will then start to look at restored books in a more positive light. Someone has already mentioned that the price payable for PLOD books is on the rise.

 

If I was after a certain book that had a Pedigree status I would not think twice about purchasing it just because that label is a different color.

 

Besides it helps me remember the pricing order of Johnny Walker whisky

 

Johnny Walker Blue label =expensive

Johnny Walker Green label =somewhere in the middle

Johnny Walker Red/Purple label= nice and cheap but still good.

 

Now just create my dream Black label for Pedigree's books and all will be well within the world.

 

Regards,

 

Russ..

 

[divad]

Qualified books WILL get blue slabs under the new system. Sig series books will remain yellow because the yellow label is considered a positive in the marketplace, not a stigmatization.

 

So . . . how's that going to work? For example, I send in an old label qualified 9.2, where the qualification is a staple pop on the front cover. Do I send it in to be regraded? Or, do I just send it in to be re-holdered (to obtain the new label interpretation)? And which qualified defect is worse? A staple pop? Or a loose centerfold at top staple only? Or a 1/2" tear to the back cover? Are there going to be different levels, i.e. grades, of Qualification?

 

Curious minds want to know . . . seems like an increased number of invitations for human error

[FFB]

Qualified books WILL get blue slabs under the new system. Sig series books will remain yellow because the yellow label is considered a positive in the marketplace, not a stigmatization.

 

So . . . how's that going to work? For example, I send in an old label qualified 9.2, where the qualification is a staple pop on the front cover. Do I send it in to be regraded? Or, do I just send it in to be re-holdered (to obtain the new label interpretation)? And which qualified defect is worse? A staple pop? Or a loose centerfold at top staple only? Or a 1/2" tear to the back cover? Are there going to be different levels, i.e. grades, of Qualification?

 

Curious minds want to know . . . seems like an increased number of invitations for human error

 

I don't know, David. This is something that CGC will have to clarify if they follow through with this.

[nearmint]

For qualified books with a huge defect that keeps them out of the "universal" higher grade (like a popped top staple or a 2" tear on the back cover of an otherwise 9.8 book), my preference would be for them to improve on the way that PGX does it, which is to list both a "qualified" grade and an "actual" grade on the label. The way PGX does it now is that it puts the "actual" grade in the big box, but the notes on the label say "Would be 9.0 if not for 2" tear on back cover." I would like to see CGC do something similar, but without burying the information in the small text of the notes.

 

The fact that CGC does not do this is probably my biggest beef with them. A qualified grade is an interesting side note, but an actual grade should ALWAYS be given. That's what we pay them for.

[AussieRuss]

I don't think I am getting your point about how any of this justifies keeping the purple label? Whether or not restored books in purple label slabs generally increase in value in the near or not-so-near future isn't relevant, is it? And when you say "a few generations time," do you mean we have to wait 60 years before the PLOD stigma wears off?

 

Hello FFB.

 

I wil try to clarify why I have this view.

CGC uses the fact that it has a very good means of detecting restoration work done on comics.

As this is one of the major selling points that CGC uses I feel that it makes perfect sense to pass on this information in a clear and easily identifiable way to the very people that pay money to have this check done.

 

My other view is that most of us would prefer to purchase a non restored book but that all depends on what the individual collector is searching for. I personally like books that come with a Pedigree lineage so the fact that a book has a PLOD or not is irrelevant to me.

 

If a person has a problem with the purple label maybe they should really be asking themselves as to why do they have that problem. The percieved value of a comic is a vey personal thing, it should not be just because of the tag color that comes with it.

 

The answer to this may well have a lot to do with money. As the alternative of "when I look at my collection sitting in the CGC box I can see PURPLE and BLUE colors instead of just blue is getting pretty anal. This type of person may well want all the towels in the bathroom to line up and be of the same color also. This could be the start of an obsessive compulsive disorder which in itself is quite sad.

 

I support having different tags so I can basically identify the level of work done to a given book without having to read the fine print. Sure I like to know if a book has had work, but I also would like to be able to tell this from a glance, not having to individually handle each and every book to be able to identify this fact.

 

This is the same reasoning that I would like a seperate labe for Pedigree'd books. To me its about ease of recognition which helps me look for certain items. It has litlle to to with the value or stigma attached to ta label.

 

The actual value of the book is already set. Trying to change the value of a book by changing the tag can be good for the person selling the book but at the end of the day you are still purchasing the same book. Again does this realy have more to do with money than about the book itself???

 

And to answer my comment about things being different in a few generations we really need to realise that this hobby if very very young. We are setting up the foundations for generations to come and need to look far beyond our small timeframe. ( again, could it be more about the dollars now rather than the future)

 

This of course is my view and i don't expect it to suit everyone just as your view may not suit me.

 

I don't know how to solve the problem regarding a person that wants a PLOD book with a blue label to help out with color coordination or the fact that the PLOD devalues the book due to that individuals perception of the PLOD. However if CGC do away with the PLOD they are dulling down one of their bigger claimed selling points which is "Profesional restoration detection"

 

Thanks for the debate & I hope that this clears things up a little more.

 

Regards,

Russ

[Darthdiesel]

We aren;t baby's needing a nursemaid.

 

Yes, but I feel the need to suckle at teats every now and then. And you re trying to take that away...

[Sal]

put me squarely in the corner against getting rid of the purple label.

 

even if you take the purple away, people will still come up with a simple, shorthanded way of referring to a book with a restoration grade on the label. like a "double-number book," or what have you. then, of course, this new shorthand method of reference becomes the new "scarlet letter" and before long, we have people asking to get rid of the second number...

 

 

the idea that prices will rise as a result of putting Restored books in a blue label makes no sense to me. are you telling me that informed buyers will make different decisions about a book based on the colour label it's in? is that the same as "buy the label, not the book?"

 

for every book with "Small amount of colour touch on the cover" there's another with "Reinforced spine, staples replaced, tear seals, cleaned"

 

and i refuse to even give the "i don't like the colours next to one another" argument the time it takes to type the stupid thing out

[FFB]

put me squarely in the corner against getting rid of the purple label.

 

even if you take the purple away, people will still come up with a simple, shorthanded way of referring to a book with a restoration grade on the label. like a "double-number book," or what have you. then, of course, this new shorthand method of reference becomes the new "scarlet letter" and before long, we have people asking to get rid of the second number...

 

 

the idea that prices will rise as a result of putting Restored books in a blue label makes no sense to me. are you telling me that informed buyers will make different decisions about a book based on the colour label it's in? is that the same as "buy the label, not the book?"

 

for every book with "Small amount of colour touch on the cover" there's another with "Reinforced spine, staples replaced, tear seals, cleaned"

 

and i refuse to even give the "i don't like the colours next to one another" argument the time it takes to type the stupid thing out

 

People have been buying raw restored books with appropriate disclosure for decades. They still buy books like this to this day from reputable dealers who disclose the extent of the restoration.

 

The purple label is a recent creation. It is not a long-standing tradition in the hobby, nor is its use essential to communicate to a buyer that a book is restored. I will grant you that it has caught on fast and I am not arguing that it hasn't received widespread acceptance in the hobby -- clearly it has. My only point is that the purple label is not a necessity, and people still sell restored books with appropriate disclosure to this day without the use of a purple label, with no problems whatsoever.

 

My problem with the different color is that on a purple label, you have disclosure of the restoration that was found on the book, but you also have the different color giving potential buyers the feeling that the grading service thought that there was something "wrong" with the restored book. It is not up to CGC to make value judgments about books. It is their job to certify, grade, and give appropriate notations of restoration found on a book. All the purple label does is add stigma where there doesn't need to be any.

 

There's nothing wrong with restored books. They're just cheaper than unrestored books and can be an affordable way for people to put together nice looking runs of books that they otherwise couldn't afford. There's no reason to stigmatize those books with a special color label. Just disclose the restoration in a clear way so that a seller can't sell the book as unrestored.

 

As for prices rising on restored books, I don't think that will happen at all except maybe for those few GA keys like the Church books that have a dot of color touch (and those are pretty expensive already). This isn't about trying to raise the prices on restored books. It's about removing a purple label "scarlet letter" stigma that never should have been there in the first place.

 

So having read your post, I'm not sure why you are in favor of keeping the purple label? All I see is you shooting down the arguments put forth in favor of ditching the purple label. I agree that some of your counterarguments are very valid, but what are your arguments in favor of keeping it in the first place?

[awe4one]

what are your arguments in favor of keeping it in the first place?

 

In a nutshell, it CLEARLY identifies the book as being restored. That's the reason they were given a different color in the first place.

 

Personally, I haven't heard any legitimate arguments why the purple label isn't a good identifier other than either "I'm retentive and want the colors to match" or "they have developed a stigma". The first there's no help for and the second is a factor of the market...

 

It's not CGC's fault purple labels are shied away from. The label has done it's job and the market has decided they aren't as desirable as unrestored copies. To blur the lines by using the same color is another example of this hobby trying to make some restoration acceptable to a segment of the hobby that didn't like it in the first place.

 

Want to put restoration numbers on the labels? Fine, I think it's a good idea... but put them on purple labels...those that care about the extent of resto on their comics get their gauge...

 

Jim

[joe_collector]

It's not CGC's fault purple labels are shied away from.

 

On another note, I don't see anyone complaining that CGC is using a GOLD notation on the CGC 9.9 and up comics. Why?

 

Because it's a POSITIVE element, even though the color is *different*. If Restored Books commanded a premium in the market, I bet the Purple Label would be highly respected and we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[joe_collector]

Hey FFB, in the interest of disclosure, please identify which parties have hired your services in the "Get rid of the PLOD" campaign.

[FFB]

Hey FFB, in the interest of disclosure, please identify which parties have hired your services in the "Get rid of the PLOD" campaign.

 

OK, but only if in the interests of disclosure you identify the individual who crapps in your Cheerios every morning before you start posting.

[Sal]

People have been buying raw restored books with appropriate disclosure for decades. They still buy books like this to this day from reputable dealers who disclose the extent of the restoration.

 

The purple label is a recent creation. It is not a long-standing tradition in the hobby, nor is its use essential to communicate to a buyer that a book is restored. I will grant you that it has caught on fast and I am not arguing that it hasn't received widespread acceptance in the hobby -- clearly it has. My only point is that the purple label is not a necessity, and people still sell restored books with appropriate disclosure to this day without the use of a purple label, with no problems whatsoever.

 

My problem with the different color is that on a purple label, you have disclosure of the restoration that was found on the book, but you also have the different color giving potential buyers the feeling that the grading service thought that there was something "wrong" with the restored book. It is not up to CGC to make value judgments about books. It is their job to certify, grade, and give appropriate notations of restoration found on a book. All the purple label does is add stigma where there doesn't need to be any.

 

There's nothing wrong with restored books. They're just cheaper than unrestored books and can be an affordable way for people to put together nice looking runs of books that they otherwise couldn't afford. There's no reason to stigmatize those books with a special color label. Just disclose the restoration in a clear way so that a seller can't sell the book as unrestored.

 

As for prices rising on restored books, I don't think that will happen at all except maybe for those few GA keys like the Church books that have a dot of color touch (and those are pretty expensive already). This isn't about trying to raise the prices on restored books. It's about removing a purple label "scarlet letter" stigma that never should have been there in the first place.

 

So having read your post, I'm not sure why you are in favor of keeping the purple label? All I see is you shooting down the arguments put forth in favor of ditching the purple label. I agree that some of your counterarguments are very valid, but what are your arguments in favor of keeping it in the first place?

 

for the very same reasons given above. i don't think there's any stigma inherent in any book, regardless of label colour. there's no stigma attached by the seller, either, unless they enjoy selling at a loss.

 

the stigma is given to the book by the buyer. for people with an aversion to restored books, this stigma is going to be attached regardless of anything CGC sticks on the label. blue label, tons of information, two grades? so what. it's still restored. it's still not going to appeal to a large section of the buying public.

 

if you want people to stop thinking of restoration as "bad" books - which is why i think you personally are in favour of the change - then this isn't your solution. adding information to the label isn't going to do anything to the stigma, either.

 

you can always add information to the existing format. every single suggestion you have advanced for the "new system" is just as easily applicable no matter the colour, but if they stay purple, it eliminates nothing but the potential for confusion.

 

and by the way, i don't consider any book "bad." i think there are bad things done to books, but that's about it. oh, except for vince coletta books. those are bad any way you slice it, no matter the grade

[THE_BEYONDER]

As the line between what is & isn't resto continues to blur...and detection becomes more & more difficult...it's only natural that all books get the same color label. Isn't it?

[Sal]

As the line between what is & isn't resto continues to blur...and detection becomes more & more difficult...it's only natural that all books get the same color label. Isn't it?

 

no.

 

the line isn't blurring between a virgin book and a restored or otherwise changed book