Batman 1 CGC 9.4!!!! 6 6

[SkyJuice]

Perhaps the book was stored high up in Himalayas.

[Gotham Kid]

4 hours ago, lou_fine said:

10 hours ago, buttock said:

19 hours ago, tth2 said:

There's a reason so many collectors have moved into OA over the past decade.

Ah yes, original art, where nothing shady ever happens. 

Yes indeed, as I believe some collectors have said that the OA market is just as bad as the comic book market, if not possibly even worse.  

Can you share some examples ?

Edited December 6, 2020 by Gotham Kid

[Aman619]

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

4 hours ago, Aman619 said:

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

Good thing that particular bug never bit me. I’ll never have to know. Still, it would be interesting to know which one of my friends here is doing all the controlling. But don’t tell me who; we can agree to this shadowy cabal as “those whose names shall not be spoken”

[tth2]

5 hours ago, Aman619 said:

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

Price protection and price manipulation are hardly unknown in comics, but in any event it's a completely different issue from alteration of the item itself, which is what we're talking about here.  

[buttock]

13 hours ago, tth2 said:

Anyways Dan (and Arnie), you can relax.  The battle has long been over, as I mentioned early on in this thread.  The surprise in this thread over pressing is so 2005. 

You guys won and absolutely routed the opposition a decade ago.  So no need to quickly tamp out any new expression of outrage from someone who's just recently discovered the rampant cracking, resubbing and pressing in this hobby.  It only makes it look like you're trying to hide something. 

Don't confuse my discussion for approval of the process.  I still really really really don't like my books tampered with, although I will do it begrudgingly from time to time.  My point is, that if you take the 3 high grade Batman 1s discussed and put them side by side 20 years ago and again today, their order of grade appears to be accurate.  That's a big change from 10 years ago when CGC couldn't grade golden age accurately at all.  Someone looking to get the nicest available copy of Batman 1 will evidently do so if they buy this book.  

I'm not sure where the "trying to hide something" comment is coming from, but... have fun with that.  

[Mmehdy]

9 hours ago, Aman619 said:

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

 I am with you on that and the difference is with OA is its one of a kind...hence a easier market to control...not like 20 Batman 1's.....I believe that the OA market has been price overblown by a handful of whale clients, when they go or get there fill...watch the big haircuts those collectors or their estates will take. GA/SA keys are universally recognized to the general public as having value...not some 1980's or 1990's marvel cover for $100,000.00....the market manipulation is gonna come back to haunt all of those who pumped it up...unless they get out in time. The greatest think that Bob Overstreets Price Guide has done over the last 50 years is to establish historical value...year by year..the real key is to key prices in check overall during a very reasonable growth period for the majority of GA Books. The Key is while not 100% accurate, it KEPT prices down somewhat over the last 50 years to build a solid value foundation step by step and year by year. That God, GA collectors for that.

Edited December 6, 2020 by Mmehdy

[szav]

30 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

the difference is with OA is its one of a kind...hence a easier market to control...

I dunno I feel like comic prices would be far easier to manipulate ... for less than the price  of some frazetta paintings you could have bought every single hulk 181 cgc 9.8 when they were going for 10-15k, stage a couple shill auction sales to yourself for 30-35 k then start unloading.  Do the same in every other grade and you’re still talking only a few million dollars invested.  The exponential run up on certain books in recent years looks artificial.

And you wouldn’t have needed even close to every 9.8 copy to do this... OA you’re talking magnitudes more money per piece, far fewer buyers to bail you out if it starts going wrong, much more risky I’d think.

Bottom line for me anyway when it comes comics and OA is assume there’s a certain level of price manipulation going on, especially with some books and artists more than others, and while I think it’s wrong and it bothers me a bit, I don’t really care that much because no one can force me to buy anything.

[sfcityduck]

On 12/6/2020 at 12:12 AM, Aman619 said:

While there is undisclosed work done to OA, the larger issue over there is that the market is closely controlled by a small group, and they protect the market thru price protection.  Generally speaking, that’s the issue.  Other will chime in with more details if they wish.

I assume you are referring to the admissions of shill bidding and fake sales by major OA art dealer on this site?  He basically admitted that he had folks bidding in his own no reserve auctions to make sure the pieces didn't sell for "less than they were worth."  Astounding admissions of fraud and market manipulation.  I have wondered if the auction sites did anything to him. 

[szav]

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

  I have wondered if the auction sites did anything to him. 

I’d assume a gift basket or thank you note at least.

[Mmehdy]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I assume you are referring to the admissions of shill bidding and fake sales by major OA art dealer on this site?  He basically admitted that he had folks bidding in his own no reserve auctions to make sure the pieces didn't sell for "less than they were worth."  Astounding admissions of fraud and market manipulation.  I have wondered if the auction sites did anything to him. 

On every auction site...you have not only shill bidders but FAKE bidders who bid low and when they win they say I cannot afford it, it  happened to me on HA's a few years ago..they relisted and gave me a additional  discount on the fees. As far as the dealers admission, I believe that is just the tip of the iceberg and as I recall, there was some pushback by one auction site..

[Aman619]

12 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I assume you are referring to the admissions of shill bidding and fake sales by major OA art dealer on this site?  He basically admitted that he had folks bidding in his own no reserve auctions to make sure the pieces didn't sell for "less than they were worth."  Astounding admissions of fraud and market manipulation.  I have wondered if the auction sites did anything to him. 

yes  that very public admission, plus discussions with collectors.  He flat out admitted to never letting a piece sell for the highest bid absent support.  However, Ive always felt that the idea that you can and SHOULD BE ABLE to win an auction for a ridiculously low price for whatever reason (and Im talking about a 10K piece for $250 or even 5K) is ridiculous.  Theres a buyer and a seller, and nobody wants to see an act of god or whatever (an outage prevented someone from bidding etc) where something goes for pennies of its retail value. But whats going on is that these sellers support the price to its "value" ABOVE retail and pay fees etc so that it CANT sell for a lower value... and to write a high sale price into the record. 

[tth2]

On 12/9/2020 at 2:28 PM, Aman619 said:

yes  that very public admission, plus discussions with collectors.  He flat out admitted to never letting a piece sell for the highest bid absent support.  However, Ive always felt that the idea that you can and SHOULD BE ABLE to win an auction for a ridiculously low price for whatever reason (and Im talking about a 10K piece for $250 or even 5K) is ridiculous.  Theres a buyer and a seller, and nobody wants to see an act of god or whatever (an outage prevented someone from bidding etc) where something goes for pennies of its retail value. But whats going on is that these sellers support the price to its "value" ABOVE retail and pay fees etc so that it CANT sell for a lower value... and to write a high sale price into the record. 

Okay, but at least the item that you're buying, albeit at an inflated or artificial price, is what it is supposed to be.

And it's certainly not as if the graded comic market isn't subject to similar shenanigans.  But there, not only will you end up paying an inflated price, but the book you're buying might not really be the book you think you're buying.

[Bronty]

And you won’t even know it’s happening because you can’t tell your copy from someone else’s (unless a truly scarce book) 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Bronty

[bluechip]

2 hours ago, Bronty said:

And you won’t even know it’s happening because you can’t tell your copy from someone else’s (unless a truly scarce book) 

I see books all the time that I used to own

Edited December 13, 2020 by bluechip

[Crowzilla]

So did anyone else see the quote from Ed Jaster in the newest Scoop article:

"This Batman #1 is a newly discovered and recently certified copy that Heritage estimates will sell for over $1 million.

“Of course, no one can say for certain, but it’s highly unlikely that a better copy is anywhere out there,” Jaster says. “It has great color and white pages – not off-white, not off-off-white, but white,” as though it has just been bought off the newsstand. “And the color strike is exceptional.”...

This copy has spent the last 38 years in the collection of Billy T. Giles, who bought it along with five other issues from the first nine Batman comics. When he died in 2019, Giles’ son inherited his collection and is now offering this finest known copy of Batman #1 to a new home."

 

I guess Mr. Giles could have submitted the book and originally gotten a 9.0, and now it has been re-certified, but I'm not sure that would qualify as "newly discovered".

Also no mention with what happened to the other five issues of Batman that Mr. Giles had, but I don't see any other early issues in this auction and of course the original certification number for the 9.0 Batman (0145575001) is removed and there are no other numbers existing on the same submission form.

[buttock]

2 minutes ago, Crowzilla said:

So did anyone else see the quote from Ed Jaster in the newest Scoop article:

"This Batman #1 is a newly discovered and recently certified copy that Heritage estimates will sell for over $1 million.

“Of course, no one can say for certain, but it’s highly unlikely that a better copy is anywhere out there,” Jaster says. “It has great color and white pages – not off-white, not off-off-white, but white,” as though it has just been bought off the newsstand. “And the color strike is exceptional.”...

This copy has spent the last 38 years in the collection of Billy T. Giles, who bought it along with five other issues from the first nine Batman comics. When he died in 2019, Giles’ son inherited his collection and is now offering this finest known copy of Batman #1 to a new home."

 

I guess Mr. Giles could have submitted the book and originally gotten a 9.0, and now it has been re-certified, but I'm not sure that would qualify as "newly discovered".

Also no mention with what happened to the other five issues of Batman that Mr. Giles had, but I don't see any other early issues in this auction and of course the original certification number for the 9.0 Batman (0145575001) is removed and there are no other numbers existing on the same submission form.

I don't know, but I'm sure lou_fine will be along to speculate shortly.  

[Mmehdy]

The bid price has topped 1  million with BP at 1,020,000 early on  WOW

[The Lions Den]

On 11/26/2020 at 3:14 PM, lou_fine said:

Just wondering if the erasure would have resulted in a bigger hit on the grading of the book, as opposed to leaving the original "S" marking on the book.   

From my own personal collector's point of view, I definitely would have prefer the original "S" marking as opposed to the intentionally made fugly erasure which just seems to stand out so much more. 

They should have left it alone...

[woowoo]

4 hours ago, Crowzilla said:

So did anyone else see the quote from Ed Jaster in the newest Scoop article:

"This Batman #1 is a newly discovered and recently certified copy that Heritage estimates will sell for over $1 million.

“Of course, no one can say for certain, but it’s highly unlikely that a better copy is anywhere out there,” Jaster says. “It has great color and white pages – not off-white, not off-off-white, but white,” as though it has just been bought off the newsstand. “And the color strike is exceptional.”...

This copy has spent the last 38 years in the collection of Billy T. Giles, who bought it along with five other issues from the first nine Batman comics. When he died in 2019, Giles’ son inherited his collection and is now offering this finest known copy of Batman #1 to a new home."

 

I guess Mr. Giles could have submitted the book and originally gotten a 9.0, and now it has been re-certified, but I'm not sure that would qualify as "newly discovered".

Also no mention with what happened to the other five issues of Batman that Mr. Giles had, but I don't see any other early issues in this auction and of course the original certification number for the 9.0 Batman (0145575001) is removed and there are no other numbers existing on the same submission form.

Its all yakity yak yak Merry X-mas @Crowzilla