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Production pieces making the jump from eBay to ComicLink?
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14 posts in this topic

I will say right off that I am NOT well versed on production pieces used to create comic art. I see a lot of it on eBay and avoid it like the plague. It's not that I have no interest in production piece (primarily a curiosity), it is that I have no interest in buying fakes and items that some sellers are obviously printing off themselves and passing off as legit production pieces. 

I see this on CL and my first thought is concern that these are going to start showing up in other auction sites. 

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dhulk%26GO%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCA%23Item_1451193&id=1451193&itemType=1&fbclid=IwAR1VH3hth8cFQ6bil0F0JfOIf1-V68xPtzjq12Bd3l24tCKVNRKz5THuOnM

I have to wonder if CL is going to vet these and assure that they are actual pieces from the original production of the comics?

 

 

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23 minutes ago, JadeGiant said:

I will say right off that I am NOT well versed on production pieces used to create comic art. I see a lot of it on eBay and avoid it like the plague. It's not that I have no interest in production piece (primarily a curiosity), it is that I have no interest in buying fakes and items that some sellers are obviously printing off themselves and passing off as legit production pieces. 

I see this on CL and my first thought is concern that these are going to start showing up in other auction sites. 

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dhulk%26GO%3DGO%26ItemType%3DCA%23Item_1451193&id=1451193&itemType=1&fbclid=IwAR1VH3hth8cFQ6bil0F0JfOIf1-V68xPtzjq12Bd3l24tCKVNRKz5THuOnM

I have to wonder if CL is going to vet these and assure that they are actual pieces from the original production of the comics?

 

 

Well, of course, they will be vetted to the best of their ability, no auction house with a long view wants to be known as

a place to dump frauds.

Another question is whether there is a sturdy market for this pre-publication material.

It's not so much the "fake" aspect, as you noted, but also lack of "original"  drawn art.

Just my opinion!  David

 

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1 hour ago, aokartman said:

Well, of course, they will be vetted to the best of their ability, no auction house with a long view wants to be known as

a place to dump frauds.

Another question is whether there is a sturdy market for this pre-publication material.

It's not so much the "fake" aspect, as you noted, but also lack of "original"  drawn art.

Just my opinion!  David

 

The ebay has been flooded with so many fakes that it would ne nice to see one or more auction house (or even CGC?) get into the business of vetting the ones that are actually vintage and rare.

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Why would there be a line-only acetate of this cover? If it’s supposed to be one of the separations for proofing, where’s the CMY acetates?  It doesn’t appear to be one of those hand-painted jobs that would need to have this over the top, based off the look of the printed cover. So what is this thing’s purpose?

Im not an expert in this period of Marvel’s in-house print production practices, but my limited experience makes me question this.

Well that and the fact that a high resolution black and white scan of the actual cover is still up on Heritage’s site, making printing one of these off a breeze.

An in hand inspection would more than likely tell the actual tale, but barring that... IF I was a fan of buying production pieces, this would give me some pause.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/covers/mike-mignola-the-incredible-hulk-309-triad-cover-original-art-marvel-1985-/a/7036-92179.s

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Looking closely at the CLink listing, I may have at least partially answered my own question. It looks like this was used to add the Issue, price etc to the line art. Not sure if this is a common practice. Seems like something utilitarian enough on board layout to be a legit period correct use of a line trans setup.
With that in mind, I’d feel more confident it’s legit. Would be a weird thing to fake. Whether it has any value to anyone other than a process completist who has the OA, or is just super into the stuff that normally gets thrown away as a byproduct of the process of old comic print making, I guess that’s up in the air.

Personally if I was into process collecting, I’d want plates. Or something of that nature. Or maybe as much of the process from thumbnails, to OA, to the full set of color transparencies, to the plates, to the comic for one page, cover or that sort of thing. So from beginning to end. That might be interesting from an academic standpoint.

 

Edited by ESeffinga
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The threshold for "original art" is really low these days.

In HA's November 19-22, 2020 auction, they listed this "all stats" item in the Original Art section.  Granted, it was in the Miscellaneous sub-category.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-sol-brodsky-avengers-2-production-cover-stat-group-of-2-marvel-1963-total-2-items-/a/7236-94175.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

The description also says:

NOTE: All stats, no original art.

At least the piece didn't fetch an "original art" worthy price.  The Miscellaneous sub-category also features blue lines and prelims which I think are closer to "original art" than an all stat piece. 

Edited by Will_K
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18 hours ago, ESeffinga said:

Why would there be a line-only acetate of this cover? If it’s supposed to be one of the separations for proofing, where’s the CMY acetates?  It doesn’t appear to be one of those hand-painted jobs that would need to have this over the top, based off the look of the printed cover. So what is this thing’s purpose?

The CL "acetate" piece looks like an exact copy of the HA "original" art piece.  Down to Mignola's and Shooter's signatures.  It looks like those are in purple or faded black.  I've never see a clear acetate with 2 colors on it.  I've seen white acetates with the art as published on it but this is new. 

The CL piece has 2 registration marks, looks like the art is on one acetate and the issue/price are on a separate acetate piece.  On the HA piece, the issue/price are on the original.  If the pieces are from the same or close to the same period, maybe the issue/price were attached to the original based on the acetate.  But the thing with 2 colors on the same clear acetate is weird.

EDIT - I was mistaken in thinking the piece was on clear acetate.  It appears to be printed on white acetate.  So ignore any distinction I've made re: white acetate vs clear acetate. 

Edited by Will_K
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5 hours ago, Will_K said:

The threshold for "original art" is really low these days.

In HA's November 19-22, 2020 auction, they listed this "all stats" item in the Original Art section.  Granted, it was in the Miscellaneous sub-category.

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-and-sol-brodsky-avengers-2-production-cover-stat-group-of-2-marvel-1963-total-2-items-/a/7236-94175.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

The description also says:

NOTE: All stats, no original art.

At least the piece didn't fetch an "original art" worthy price.  The Miscellaneous sub-category also features blue lines and prelims which I think are closer to "original art" than an all stat piece. 

There may be a little too much emotion at work here.   If people use the correct terms you should not get upset just because somebody likes it/values it more than you do.

The headline omits the word "art" and the description couldn't possibly be more clear.  As you point out, it says, unequivocally, "Not original art"  

Prelims aren't "closer to" art.  They are art.  Just not the final.

You approve of bluelines more than you do "production art" even though neither is actually executed by the artist in pencil/ink and the production art is at least the actual PRINTED production art used to make the book.  And it's worth reiterating that the listing which upset you didn't even use the term "production art," despite the fact it's been an accepted term in the printing industry since before any of us were born. 

In this case, the item in question was the actual printed art used in 1963 to make the cover of the 2nd issue of the Avengers.  It's oversized, original vintage and frameable.  Is it really such an outrage that somebody paid low four figures for it, instead of choosing to pay the same, or more, for a copy of the original comic book?  (or choosing to go in with a dozen other friends, all paying the same money, to buy some book from the 90s in a 9.8 slab?)

 

           

Edited by bluechip
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I don't think I'm attaching "emotion" to categorizing that piece under Original Art.  And I'm not "upset" over it.  Certainly, no "outrage".

I do think HA was making a money play by putting that piece under Original Art

In HA's April 30 - May 3 2020 auction, this Cockrum piece was under Memorabilia, a totally separate category from Original Art:

Dave Cockrum Giant-Size X-Men #1 Splash Page 1 All-Stat Production Page (Marvel, 1975).

https://comics.ha.com/itm/memorabilia/dave-cockrum-giant-size-x-men-1-splash-page-1-all-stat-production-page-marvel-1975-/a/7229-94143.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Without ranking GSX 1 vs Avengers 2, I'd say they're both very significant issues.

But given the Cockrum piece (again, filed under Memorabilia) closed at $21,000 (with bp), I think maybe HA was hoping that putting the Kirby piece under Original Art might give it more "oomph"

And no deception was involved, both pieces are clearly described as being all stats.

 

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I way overpaid ($300) for this thing on eBay about 15 years ago. I think it’s what you guys are talking about. One of you Merry Marvelites might know what Avengers issue it’s from?  It was trimmed and then glued to a board which I think I removed upon my receipt

 

 

4E8F3E16-58ED-413E-B408-5CEC7EC4BA18.jpeg

C24145E6-4171-419D-A272-CA5E7D4B81C8.jpeg

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55 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

I way overpaid ($300) for this thing on eBay about 15 years ago. I think it’s what you guys are talking about. One of you Merry Marvelites might know what Avengers issue it’s from?  It was trimmed and then glued to a board which I think I removed upon my receipt

 

 

4E8F3E16-58ED-413E-B408-5CEC7EC4BA18.jpeg

C24145E6-4171-419D-A272-CA5E7D4B81C8.jpeg

That's Tales to Astonish 49.

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17 hours ago, Will_K said:

I don't think I'm attaching "emotion" to categorizing that piece under Original Art.  And I'm not "upset" over it.  Certainly, no "outrage".

I do think HA was making a money play by putting that piece under Original Art

In HA's April 30 - May 3 2020 auction, this Cockrum piece was under Memorabilia, a totally separate category from Original Art:

Dave Cockrum Giant-Size X-Men #1 Splash Page 1 All-Stat Production Page (Marvel, 1975).

https://comics.ha.com/itm/memorabilia/dave-cockrum-giant-size-x-men-1-splash-page-1-all-stat-production-page-marvel-1975-/a/7229-94143.s?ic4=ListView-ShortDescription-071515

Without ranking GSX 1 vs Avengers 2, I'd say they're both very significant issues.

But given the Cockrum piece (again, filed under Memorabilia) closed at $21,000 (with bp), I think maybe HA was hoping that putting the Kirby piece under Original Art might give it more "oomph"

And no deception was involved, both pieces are clearly described as being all stats.

 

Even though "production art" is a term that was created and used for decades before collecting of comic art was even a thing, and even though fine and modern art auctions often contain prints, I would be fine with production art pieces being described as "memorabilia".  My personal appreciation for them is pretty much on that level, anyway.  

Edited by bluechip
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