How big is the pool of buyers for six-figure O/A? 0

[Jeremyamoto]

I think there's an interesting parallel here with Pokemon cards when compared to NES collecting. The base set Pokemon cards have lots of variants, which I think helps to drive the price moreso than the later sets: 1st Edition thick/thin stamp (all 1st editions are shadowless and I believe thick stamp was first), unlimited edition shadowless variant (quite rare), unlimited edition with shadow (most common). Then there are also ghost stamps, which are kinda neat.

[DeadpoolJr.]

Word of advice when it comes to old Pokémon and even Yugioh packs sold by themselves. Another reason sealed boxes are coveted is because it's guaranteed that the rare (holo) pulls are in them. If you buy old packs loose you risk them already having been weighed which is the process where the packs are put on a sensitive scale to determine if a holo card is in them since they'll be a few grams heavier than a standard pack. So when buying them online it's likely that they've been weighed by the seller and that you don't actually have a chance of getting a holo at all with those packs already being opened. 

[delekkerste]

I would also note that when the Dumb Money guys did their initial unveiling of the $375K Pokemon box they bought...they found out that it was a resealed box full of modern Pokemon packs!! Thankfully for them, they did the unveiling as part of a live stream where they were going to hand off a briefcase full of cash to pay for the box, and, of course, they didn't have to pay for the box when it was discovered to be a fraud.  

They did a second livestream of the replacement box, which turned out to be legit.  

Scammers be scammin'...

[pinupcartooncollector]

12 minutes ago, DeadpoolJr. said:

Word of advice when it comes to old Pokémon and even Yugioh packs sold by themselves. Another reason sealed boxes are coveted is because it's guaranteed that the rare (holo) pulls are in them. If you buy old packs loose you risk them already having been weighed which is the process where the packs are put on a sensitive scale to determine if a holo card is in them since they'll be a few grams heavier than a standard pack. So when buying them online it's likely that they've been weighed by the seller and that you don't actually have a chance of getting a holo at all with those packs already being opened. 

That's a really interesting tid bit I did not know about.  And the same goes for Gene's note that a "sealed" box is no guarantee.  Another note re a "sealed" box, whose to say the seller didn't open it, weigh the packs, then switch out some of the packs with other legit vintage packs, but ones he knows are lighter and don't contain holos?

[stinkininkin]

HOLY C R * P ! Never thought I'd reply to a Pokemon thread, but reading about all this Poke-fraud, I think I'll just stick to collecting OA, thank you very much (especially in light that the rare occurrence of art-scam is easy to spot when it comes to published art).

[RBerman]

Having commissioned a reproduction cover myself, I was impressed with how much it matched the original. As more pages/covers sell for six figures, it is hard to imagine the market won’t attract high quality forgeries.

[JadeGiant]

2 hours ago, DeadpoolJr. said:

Word of advice when it comes to old Pokémon and even Yugioh packs sold by themselves. Another reason sealed boxes are coveted is because it's guaranteed that the rare (holo) pulls are in them. If you buy old packs loose you risk them already having been weighed which is the process where the packs are put on a sensitive scale to determine if a holo card is in them since they'll be a few grams heavier than a standard pack. So when buying them online it's likely that they've been weighed by the seller and that you don't actually have a chance of getting a holo at all with those packs already being opened. 

So very true! 

My son got really good at being able to weight the packs with his hands (no scale) and was able to pick packs with a high level of success that had the holo cards. He was just a kid when he was doing this but so successful that the store owner stopped letting people pick their own packs because of this. It was a great racket while it lasted. The big box stores like Target add an outer cardboard layer which makes it more difficult. 

[PhilipB2k17]

15 hours ago, RBerman said:

Having commissioned a reproduction cover myself, I was impressed with how much it matched the original. As more pages/covers sell for six figures, it is hard to imagine the market won’t attract high quality forgeries.

I think the bigger risk is newbies getting taken in by really well done recreations. I do think that those doing the recreations should always add a little something to them to distinguish it from the real thing. 

[Bronty]

19 hours ago, delekkerste said:

I would also note that when the Dumb Money guys did their initial unveiling of the $375K Pokemon box they bought...they found out that it was a resealed box full of modern Pokemon packs!! Thankfully for them, they did the unveiling as part of a live stream where they were going to hand off a briefcase full of cash to pay for the box, and, of course, they didn't have to pay for the box when it was discovered to be a fraud.  

They did a second livestream of the replacement box, which turned out to be legit.  

Scammers be scammin'...

Yes although it has to be said that they clearly knew or suspected it was a reseal when they opened it as they noted warning signs prior to opening.  I suspect that they opened it anyways on video as a way to enforce a refund claim.   The box was purchased from heritage if I recall and if so that’s one video that does not make heritage look good given they obviously missed the signs.  
 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Bronty

[First Upgrade]

One would incorrectly assume that Heritage Auctions hires 'Experts'.

Much less 'Pokemon Experts'...

[szav]

4 hours ago, Bronty said:

The box was purchased from heritage if I recall and if so that’s one video that does not make heritage look good given they obviously missed the signs.

If that’s true, I’d love to hear the story, if it ever gets out, of how that gets resolved legally for the person who bought the fake six figure box from HA.  

[RBerman]

1 minute ago, szav said:

If that’s true, I’d love to hear the story, if it ever gets out, of how that gets resolved legally for the person who bought the fake six figure box from HA.  

What do the Heritage terms of service say besides "caveat emptor"? They seem good about fixing listing mistakes that come to their attention, but it would be beyond their expertise to guarantee the provenance of every item that crosses their gavel.

[szav]

33 minutes ago, RBerman said:

What do the Heritage terms of service say

Ill admit I got bored after a few paragraphs ... there’s quite a bit in there about using an arbiter for dispute resolution.

 I imagine whatever the resolution they’d not want it made public anyway as any news about their in house experts getting duped would not reflect well.  On the other hand, it might actually make them look good if it were publicly known they own up to even their most expensive mistakes.

Anyway, I’m just curious how legally ironclad the terms of service really are, and don’t know what the precedent in similar circumstances is.  Would be interesting to know the story behind the resealed box, if anyone goes to jail over it, who gets left holding the bag etc.  It would make for a good episode on American Greed or a similar show.

Edited December 12, 2020 by szav

[Will_K]

2 hours ago, szav said:

 It would make for a good episode on American Greed or a similar show.

"American Greed" was aptly named.  Although the duper ("bad guy") was framed as being greedy.  I think the duped party could also be seen as being greedy.

Edited December 12, 2020 by Will_K

[Rick2you2]

11 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

I think the bigger risk is newbies getting taken in by really well done recreations. I do think that those doing the recreations should always add a little something to them to distinguish it from the real thing. 

Absolutely.

[Bronty]

5 hours ago, RBerman said:

What do the Heritage terms of service say besides "caveat emptor"? They seem good about fixing listing mistakes that come to their attention, but it would be beyond their expertise to guarantee the provenance of every item that crosses their gavel.

Yes, but hey, just get the six figures ones right you know?   
 

as was said though, I suspect they took some good steps (pure speculation).   I wonder if the second 375 sale wasn’t arranged by heritage to right the error (assuming the first sale was indeed thru them).

Edited December 12, 2020 by Bronty

[batman_fan]

I personally think the pool varies as a function of the specific piece

Spiderman 299 cover - I am not in the pool

Kirby Fantastic Four panel page with Silver Surfer - I am not in the pool

Certain Peanuts Sunday strips - I AM in the pool

Certain Romita Spiderman covers - I AM in the pool.

Going 6 figures on a piece is beyond my comfort zone but for certain pieces I would go after them hard. 

[delekkerste]

12 hours ago, Bronty said:

Yes although it has to be said that they clearly knew or suspected it was a reseal when they opened it as they noted warning signs prior to opening.  I suspect that they opened it anyways on video as a way to enforce a refund claim.   The box was purchased from heritage if I recall and if so that’s one video that does not make heritage look good given they obviously missed the signs.  
 

The box wasn't purchased from Heritage; some guy claimed to have owned it for many years, kept it in a safe, etc. etc. and then sold it through the middlemen in the video to the Dumb Money guys. 

[lobrac]

4 hours ago, batman_fan said:

I personally think the pool varies as a function of the specific piece

Spiderman 299 cover - I am not in the pool

Kirby Fantastic Four panel page with Silver Surfer - I am not in the pool

Certain Peanuts Sunday strips - I AM in the pool

Certain Romita Spiderman covers - I AM in the pool.

Going 6 figures on a piece is beyond my comfort zone but for certain pieces I would go after them hard. 

The pool is the same for everyone...

[alxjhnsn]

On 12/11/2020 at 1:22 PM, RBerman said:

Having commissioned a reproduction cover myself, I was impressed with how much it matched the original. As more pages/covers sell for six figures, it is hard to imagine the market won’t attract high quality forgeries.

It's happened. Mark Landis was really good.

New Yorker article: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/08/26/the-giveaway

Felix Comic Art Interview with Mark: http://www.felixcomicart.com/podcastdetail.asp?pId=32