NOT A TEAR 1 1

[Johnderose91]

Hello,

The book would be extremely attractive without the cut, you get that wow feeling when you look at it.

What would this defect do to the grade?

 

Thanks,

John

p.s. can we plug in our ebay stores on this forum?

Edited December 9, 2020 by Johnderose91
Silly comment by a newbie

[Lightning55]

That is likely a "printer's crease".  It is considered a manufacturing defect, so possibly not counted too negatively, if at all. 

It's called a printer's crease, but it probably is more accurately called a paper crease. 

Frequently when you see these, the paper stock was already creased upon production, and then just printed over.

[seanfingh]

2 hours ago, Lightning55 said:

That is likely a "printer's crease".  It is considered a manufacturing defect, so possibly not counted too negatively, if at all. 

It's called a printer's crease, but it probably is more accurately called a paper crease. 

Frequently when you see these, the paper stock was already creased upon production, and then just printed over.

I would agree with you if it were a printer's crease, but for it to curve like that one does at the end, I don't see that as being a printer's crease.  I wouldn't give that over a 6.0 if I were grading it.

[Lightning55]

If it is a printer's crease, you would also see it on the reverse of the page, since it's like a pleat.  i don't see a good photo of that particular area.  With "busy" ad printing on the back, it might be hard to see anyway, except if in hand for examination.

[James J Johnson]

2 hours ago, Lightning55 said:

If it is a printer's crease, you would also see it on the reverse of the page, since it's like a pleat.  i don't see a good photo of that particular area.  With "busy" ad printing on the back, it might be hard to see anyway, except if in hand for examination.

+1  And pleat, is the key word here. A very tight and narrow fold pressed into the paper by the rollers used in producing the paper itself. More properly, a paper pleat, not a printing pleat or crease as this is a material defect in the manufacturing of the ream of paper fed through to print the cover. If you try, you can actually unfold the pleat and what you will see is a rift of white, an area where no ink was imprinted because the paper was folded (pleated) and the ink didn't get to imprint the area hidden within the pleat. This is such a common thing with AS 67, about half of all I've seen have it either on the front or back cover, and sometimes more than one. 

[Lightning55]

If it's any guidance at all for you, I submitted a bunch of Spider-Woman 1's, about 20.  At least half had these creases, front or back, about 2" in length.  The lowest grade I got was 9.2, highest 9.6, but none were ever going to be 9.8 candidates.  My general impression was that the creases were not a factor.

I took notes on each copy sent, what order it was listed on the form, whether it had a crease or not, what I projected the grade to be.  I didn't know how the creases would be evaluated, so I was conservative.  I figured if it was a 9.6 otherwise, I would grade it 9.2. 

All the grades came back higher than I projected, so minimal downgrading.  I guess it's just "typical" of the time period.  Since then, I have sent tons of comics with creases.  In general, not much of an impact.  I think the higher you go in grade, the more it will considered a defect. 

It would be tough to get a 9.8 with a large crease.  And hard to sell, too.  If you have two 9.8's to choose from at the same price, and one has a 4" crease across the front, which one would you pick?  How far down would you have to price it to have a chance against the non-creased 9.8?  Whatever that amount of money is, that's the dollar impact of the crease.

[Tony S]

33 minutes ago, Lightning55 said:

If it's any guidance at all for you, I submitted a bunch of Spider-Woman 1's, about 20.  At least half had these creases, front or back, about 2" in length.  The lowest grade I got was 9.2, highest 9.6, but none were ever going to be 9.8 candidates.  My general impression was that the creases were not a factor.

I took notes on each copy sent, what order it was listed on the form, whether it had a crease or not, what I projected the grade to be.  I didn't know how the creases would be evaluated, so I was conservative.  I figured if it was a 9.6 otherwise, I would grade it 9.2. 

All the grades came back higher than I projected, so minimal downgrading.  I guess it's just "typical" of the time period.  Since then, I have sent tons of comics with creases.  In general, not much of an impact.  I think the higher you go in grade, the more it will considered a defect. 

It would be tough to get a 9.8 with a large crease.  And hard to sell, too.  If you have two 9.8's to choose from at the same price, and one has a 4" crease across the front, which one would you pick?  How far down would you have to price it to have a chance against the non-creased 9.8?  Whatever that amount of money is, that's the dollar impact of the crease.

As others have said, this is a printer's crease. Period. Feeling the "bump" with your finger is what finalizes my opinion.. 

As for "what would it sell for?"  THIS is why this book - if otherwise very high grade - should be slabbed.  The advice oftentimes on the boards here is "buy the book, not the slab". But that is in fact contrarian advice.  Good advice, but contrarian. Once CGC assigns a grade and encapsulates it - that is what it is for 95% of the population. It is like an umpire calling balls and strikes.  Yes, sometimes they are "wrong". But it doesn't matter. The call is the call. And you need someone making the calls. 

So the answer is that the book will likely sell for the 9.8 price if it's sitting inside a CGC 9.8 graded holder and label. Today, tomorrow and years from now. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Tony S

[Lightning55]

24 minutes ago, Tony S said:

So the answer is that the book will likely sell for the 9.8 price if it's sitting inside a CGC 9.8 graded holder and label. Today, tomorrow and years from now. 

That can be true for most comics, of the pedestrian type.  The more important the comic, the greater scrutiny it receives. 

The seller has an opinion, 9.8.  It is backed up by CGC, 9.8.  The buyer doesn't think so, sees some minor areas of concern, and his money never leaves his pocket.  You still need all 3 opinions to align, especially the buyer, or you have a 9.8 that is hard to move along. 

We sometimes get 9.8 comics in that we KNOW aren't 9.8.  Just can't be, by definition.  But there it is with a 9.8 on it.  And that thing is hard to sell.  If you offer free returns on eBay, you can end up paying shipping both ways, refunding money, lots of air miles on that comic now. 

Sometimes you take the chance, sometimes you just can't.  Sometimes the buyer seems to accept it, sometimes they don't.  You're practically expecting the return when you put it in the box.  And you don't blame them - if you got it, you'd return it.  It's a tough call, and can cost some money.

And of course the other way around - graded 9.6 and looks perfect.  I don't think anyone would argue much that on any given day, the same comic can be 9.6 or 9.8, depending on opinion.

Lately we get comics in that say 9.8, and a corner is folded over.  Maybe the cover was overhanging a bit over the pages, so it just drooped.  Maybe moved during shipping.  Nothing you can do about it now, it's untouchable in the capsule.  CGC only guarantees the grade as it left Florida, not as you get it.  But Customer Service can elect to help out.

How can you sell an obvious defect as 9.8?  You can't - it's coming back.  So you might as well crack it, press it, and try again.  And you risk losing your 9.8. 

We sent comics back with folded corners to be fixed and re-holdered, a courtesy to us from CGC.  They came back 9.8 - corner folded over again (x2).  So maddening.

[Johnderose91]

This is an enlargement of the backside of the cover. You can notice the crease fade on the cover once it reaches Spidey's foot and that lines up with where the crease end on the inside. I guess the other half of the cover crease wasn't intense enough to make it through the other side. 

Thanks for all the replies :)

[Topnotchman]

If the rest of the comic were 9.8 grade, I don't see that large of a printers crease given a free pass as a production flaw.  It would likely be downgraded. 

[zzutak]

6 hours ago, Johnderose91 said:

This is an enlargement of the [inside front] cover.

If I understand you correctly, you're saying that the length of the blemish on the inside front cover is significantly shorter than the length of the blemish on the outside front cover.  This suggests to me that the blemish is not a printer's crease but a scratch (created with varying downward pressure).  Is it mechanically possible to have a pleat that partially penetrates the thickness of the paper? 

Here's an example of a true printer's crease.  The first image is of the outside front cover.  The second image is of the inside cover.  The length of the crease is the same on both sides.

Note also that the blemish on your book appears a bit "fuzzy" with a few specs of ink loss on Spidey's foot.  While this may simply be an artifact of your camera work, it's also consistent with a scratch that partially penetrates the cover stock and cuts through some of the fibers that would ordinarily be entirely internal to the ink-covered paper.

[Tony S]

On 12/8/2020 at 1:06 AM, Lightning55 said:

That can be true for most comics, of the pedestrian type.  The more important the comic, the greater scrutiny it receives. 

The seller has an opinion, 9.8.  It is backed up by CGC, 9.8.  The buyer doesn't think so, sees some minor areas of concern, and his money never leaves his pocket.  You still need all 3 opinions to align, especially the buyer, or you have a 9.8 that is hard to move along. 

We sometimes get 9.8 comics in that we KNOW aren't 9.8.  Just can't be, by definition.  But there it is with a 9.8 on it.  And that thing is hard to sell.  If you offer free returns on eBay, you can end up paying shipping both ways, refunding money, lots of air miles on that comic now. 

Sometimes you take the chance, sometimes you just can't.  Sometimes the buyer seems to accept it, sometimes they don't.  You're practically expecting the return when you put it in the box.  And you don't blame them - if you got it, you'd return it.  It's a tough call, and can cost some money.

And of course the other way around - graded 9.6 and looks perfect.  I don't think anyone would argue much that on any given day, the same comic can be 9.6 or 9.8, depending on opinion.

Lately we get comics in that say 9.8, and a corner is folded over.  Maybe the cover was overhanging a bit over the pages, so it just drooped.  Maybe moved during shipping.  Nothing you can do about it now, it's untouchable in the capsule.  CGC only guarantees the grade as it left Florida, not as you get it.  But Customer Service can elect to help out.

How can you sell an obvious defect as 9.8?  You can't - it's coming back.  So you might as well crack it, press it, and try again.  And you risk losing your 9.8. 

We sent comics back with folded corners to be fixed and re-holdered, a courtesy to us from CGC.  They came back 9.8 - corner folded over again (x2).  So maddening.

This is why a lot of people choose to sell books via auction houses like Comic Connect, Comic Link and Heritage. They are able to make an "all sales are final" policy stick. They locate in States with auction house friendly laws. Whether or not you paid attention, when you registered to bid you agreed to their terms, which say professionally graded books are non returnable.

The second bolded area is really on CGC. Their inner holder has - from day 1 - been a problem for books with any significant cover over hang. While any inner holder design has some potential problems depending on book and how the slabbed book is handled, A tapered seal type inner holder (the inner holder sealed a couple of millimeter around the edge of the book) is much less likely to fold over cover overhang. 

There was a period of time when CGC was sending books back raw that encapsulation might damage. IDK if they do that near as often now as they were years ago. 

[BlowUpTheMoon]

On 12/7/2020 at 2:33 PM, seanfingh said:

On 12/7/2020 at 12:05 PM, Lightning55 said:

That is likely a "printer's crease".  It is considered a manufacturing defect, so possibly not counted too negatively, if at all. 

It's called a printer's crease, but it probably is more accurately called a paper crease. 

Frequently when you see these, the paper stock was already creased upon production, and then just printed over.

I would agree with you if it were a printer's crease, but for it to curve like that one does at the end, I don't see that as being a printer's crease.  I wouldn't give that over a 6.0 if I were grading it.

Fingh's right, not a printer's crease.   Printer creases usually usually follow a straighter horizontal path.