Mega keys have a lot of room for growth 2 2

[kimik]

2 hours ago, tth2 said:

You think the best Batman 1 is worth more than the best Detective 27?!  I'll take the bet against that every day of the week!

That was a typo.  I meant Tec 27.

[bpc3qh]

15 hours ago, StuporMan said:

 T206? outside of rareness for rareness, who really cares about b-list players from 1909?

There's also eye appeal, history, etc. Just like with GA Comics which sell for more because of their history, their appearance, etc.

[Mmehdy]

14 hours ago, tth2 said:

John Verzyl was the owner of the Church Marvel Comics 1 and Allentown Captain America 1 and has passed away, but his heirs have given no indication that they will be selling them. 

John had turned down some amazing offers on that Cap#1...here clearly thought it was the best out there and think that would be one the last ones to go in a sale.

[Crowzilla]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:06 AM, tth2 said:

In contrast, the biggest comics in our hobby (Church Action 1, AT Tec 27, Church Batman 1, Superman 1 (which is not a pedigree as far as I know), Church Marvel Comics 1, AT Captain America 1) are all tucked away, unlikely to ever emerge in my lifetime. 

Kind of a sad thought isn't it. The owner of the Larson Action 1 and Church Tec27 (same person) also seems to have locked those away for the foreseeable future and of course the two 9.0 copies of Action 1 are most likely removed for our lifetime also. This is probably why people are rooting so hard for the 9.2 Tec27 to come to market (when it turns out to be the other 8.0 copy re-holdered, that will be another "I love this hobby" thread).  Good thing we have AF15, Hulk181, and TMNT1 to guide us into the future.

[tth2]

5 hours ago, Crowzilla said:

On 12/18/2020 at 11:06 PM, tth2 said:

In contrast, the biggest comics in our hobby (Church Action 1, AT Tec 27, Church Batman 1, Superman 1 (which is not a pedigree as far as I know), Church Marvel Comics 1, AT Captain America 1) are all tucked away, unlikely to ever emerge in my lifetime. 

Kind of a sad thought isn't it. The owner of the Larson Action 1 and Church Tec27 (same person) also seems to have locked those away for the foreseeable future and of course the two 9.0 copies of Action 1 are most likely removed for our lifetime also. This is probably why people are rooting so hard for the 9.2 Tec27 to come to market (when it turns out to be the other 8.0 copy re-holdered, that will be another "I love this hobby" thread).  Good thing we have AF15, Hulk181, and TMNT1 to guide us into the future.

The same holds true for the top Silver Age books, at least on the Marvel side.  Virtually all are owned by Brulato and I don't see any of them changing hands any time soon.  It would certainly be interesting to see if the 9.4 Hulk 1 could break the $1m barrier.

Sports cards seem to have moved into the realm of fungible financial assets while comics still seem to be the province of genuine collectors.  The decoupling of fandom and financial investment seems to have happened when Bruce McNall and Wayne Gretzky bought the "Gretzky T206", with neither of them being baseball fans as far as I know, and then reselling it only 4 years later.  Interestingly, it was sold by them to Walmart, to use as the prize in a promotional contest.  Not surprisingly, the winner immediately sold it for cash and the card appears to have changed hands every 3 to 4 years afterward until being acquired by Ken Kendricks, the owner of the Arizona Diamondbacks, in 2011.  Can you imagine the Church Action 1 or AT Tec 27 being bought by some big conglomerate (i.e., Warner) to be used as the prize in a promotional contest?  

Interestingly, the T206 that sold for $3.12 million in 2016 is not the Gretzky T206.  Apparently it's a card known as the "Jumbo Wagner".  As I don't follow the sports card market at all (except when the odd headline makes its way into mainstream media), this was new news to me. 

[Aman619]

The jumbo Wagner was described in one of the links I posted about the Gretzky T206 being trimmed, or cut from a sheet.  It was BOTH!

man I love that hobby!

it called the Jumbo because it has extra white below the graphics that the Gretzky doesn’t. 

[bpc3qh]

As someone who collects sports cards (basketball and baseball), I find a lot of the hobby disconcerting, especially as compared to comics. Flipping/speculating in response to who's hot is much more aggressive, there's a lot more emphasis on variants (auto cards, chrome cards, etc.), and seemingly less consistency to the hobby. There're also more bad actors, in sellers performing undisclosed restoration, selling copies as originals, shill bidding, etc. I think that ties into the "commodity over collectible" point that @tth2 made above.

[woowoo]

On 12/19/2020 at 1:57 PM, Crowzilla said:

Kind of a sad thought isn't it. The owner of the Larson Action 1 and Church Tec27 (same person) also seems to have locked those away for the foreseeable future and of course the two 9.0 copies of Action 1 are most likely removed for our lifetime also. This is probably why people are rooting so hard for the 9.2 Tec27 to come to market (when it turns out to be the other 8.0 copy re-holdered, that will be another "I love this hobby" thread).  Good thing we have AF15, Hulk181, and TMNT1 to guide us into the future.

Edited December 21, 2020 by woowoo

[Bookery]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:19 AM, sfcityduck said:

Far far far more people than read comics.

Here is the difference between baseball cards and comics:  All baseball cards were manufactured collectibles from day one.  They were produced to be collected and they were. Which means baseball cards have a much longer period of a robust collecting community than comics.  Baseball card collectors are a small subset of baseball fans, but there are a lot of them.  

Until the 80s, all comics were produced to be read, not collected.  Comics were not created to be a collectible. For me, that makes comics more desirable.

But, the markets are different.  Comparing the two markets is a bad idea.  They are two entirely different things.  You cannot compare a comic to fine art, etc. because the markets all have their own attributes.

Everything above is true, and there's also another significant difference.  Sports card collectors seem to have more reverence for the past than comics collectors.  The most valuable baseball card is from just after the turn of the century, and though it's been decades since I dealt in sports cards, I imagine interest in even earlier Old Judge cards is still significant.  But with a few exceptions, most comic collectors have no interest at all in Victorian or Platinum-Age comics.  In fact, the collecting emphasis keeps shifting forward over time.  Yes... golden-age comics with exploitative covers or key 1st appearances are still strong... but even many of the comics from the '40s and '50s are now of limited interest (again, key covers aside)... Doll Man, Blackhawk, Tarzan, Captain Marvel, Flash Gordon, Joe Palooka, let alone genres such as funny animal, western, movie tie-ins, etc.  When the 1970 Overstreet was released, early Disney comics were among the gold standard of collecting.  Not now.  Also, as with coins or stamps, there is value in sports cards attributed simply to rarity, regardless of the fame of the player.  But there are Feature Books, for instance, that are quite rare, yet garner only niche interest at a fraction of the value of far more common "keys".

In this regard, comics are more akin to rare books, where age or scarcity makes little difference if the author/title/design does not hold interest for collectors.  So another big difference between the markets.
 

[Cat-Man_America]

So far no one has addressed the most daunting question of the day, ...what happens if the mega key grows too big for the lock?   

[comicdonna]

1 minute ago, Cat-Man_America said:

So far no one has addressed the most daunting question of the day, ...what happens if the mega key grows too big for the lock?   

Trim it?  

[Mr bla bla]

11 hours ago, Cat-Man_America said:

So far no one has addressed the most daunting question of the day, ...what happens if the mega key grows too big for the lock?   

They are already way too big for the lock. But that disproportionality just seems to enhance the mystique’n desirability of the GA keys.

[fishbone]

On 12/18/2020 at 12:11 PM, kimik said:

There are plenty of rumors about it, but who knows. Right now that is still the highest graded copy, right?

not rumour,  it's 100% public knowledge:

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/mastro-admits-cutting-honus-card-article-1.1482098

[fishbone]

On 12/18/2020 at 12:12 PM, kimik said:

I thought that you can press cards as well? Micro trimming is definitely the bigger issue with cards.

As far as comics, that is definitely the big question re: top AC 1 and Tec 27 copies.

That being said, paintings are restored/cleaned on a regular basis to maintain them which does not diminish the value. I think longer term the comic collecting community will come to view dry cleaning and pressing the same.

I've never found an "official" service that presses sports cards .... anyone reading, share any links if you know of any (I need this service for many of my cards) - failing that, I'll have to pull out the iron and board 

[fishbone]

On 12/18/2020 at 8:35 PM, waaaghboss said:

Which is ok, the guy I was replying to was saying that more people have heard of Wagner than superman, which I really don't think is the case.  

Ask a dozen people you know who aren't collectors if they've heard of superman.   Now do the same with Wagner.  Id be curious to hear your results.  

No way the statement about wagner being more well-known than superman and batman is correct - in fact it is so far the opposite, by a factor of 1000000 !!

[fishbone]

On 12/18/2020 at 10:19 PM, clarkkentdds said:

I am only a casual follower of sports cards, but it seems like cards of all sports are lately blowing up way more than comics ... not sure why this is. 

I can't speak as a top expert, but I can speak as a collector of both comics and hockey cards (I'm Canadian, what do you want) for a very long time and I can tell you that grail hockey cards anyway have been very undervalued for a long time ........ it's about time my hockey heroes get their due !! 

[fifties]

21 hours ago, Bookery said:

  Yes... golden-age comics with exploitative covers or key 1st appearances are still strong... but even many of the comics from the '40s and '50s are now of limited interest (again, key covers aside)... Doll Man, Blackhawk, Tarzan, Captain Marvel, Flash Gordon, Joe Palooka, let alone genres such as funny animal, western, movie tie-ins, etc. 

Many perhaps, but not all.  I can't get arrested in the horror section on eBay.  Practically every time I bid on a horror comic I get outbid, and sometimes by two or three bidders. The same holds true in the crime section, for the more desirable covers or titles.  And I CAN'T BELIEVE how prices of these have gone straight through the roof, esp this last year or two.  And books on HA?  Forgetaboutit unless you want to relinquish the mortgage payment...

[sfcityduck]

21 hours ago, Bookery said:

Also, as with coins or stamps, there is value in sports cards attributed simply to rarity, regardless of the fame of the player.  But there are Feature Books, for instance, that are quite rare, yet garner only niche interest at a fraction of the value of far more common "keys".

In this regard, comics are more akin to rare books, where age or scarcity makes little difference if the author/title/design does not hold interest for collectors.  So another big difference between the markets.
 

True.  The fact that comic values do not correspond to rarity is a big difference.  In part that is because baseball card collectors are more likely to be completists, wanting to put together all of the cards for a particular year.  But, in greater part that is because for comic collectors, who increasingly are not completists, a comic book needs to be more than part of a set - it must have pop culture, comic history, artistic, or other significance to have real value.  Which I think makes comics a better purchase than a baseball card.  I'd be willing to bet that the average price for 1952 comics would be greater than the average value of 1952 baseball cards, mainly because comic books have a lot more to offer than baseball cards (and the highest valued 1952 cards will not be the rarest, they'll be the rookie cards).

[Math Teacher]

On 12/19/2020 at 11:21 PM, bpc3qh said:

there's a lot more emphasis on variants

I assume that you must have not purchased any modern comics for some time; of course, neither have I. Variants seem to be the name of the game now.

[bpc3qh]

57 minutes ago, Math Teacher said:

I assume that you must have not purchased any modern comics for some time; of course, neither have I. Variants seem to be the name of the game now.

Oh most certainly not. My comic collecting pretty stops at the end of the Bronze Age, except for the occasional key that relates to my interests. I was trying to draw the comparison between where the sports card market is at and where, say, the GA/SA/BA markets are at. It was perhaps inelegant, and a little bit of me expressing my displeasure with that type of collecting (also relevant to modern comics), but I thought it might be instructive.