Mega keys have a lot of room for growth 2 2

[fishbone]

12 hours ago, Aman619 said:

Heritages sports card auction this week had some eye popping sales.  Gretzky hockey card 1.5M  !  and a bunch of others.  But, the huge numbers were cards graded as 10.0s , so that probably had a lot to do with it. Unlike in comics, cards seems to have a supply of quite a few big key cards in 10.0 grade.  Imagine SA or GA keys in 10.0!  With all the pressing etc, this is just not happening, or doable.  yet?

 

But I'm fairly sure those cards that are 10's are true 10's - you can't, from my knowledge, do anything to cardboard cards (expect illegal trimming) that can bump a card from 9 or 9.5 to 10......of course, with pressing and such,  comics can be bumped.

[kimik]

Just now, bpc3qh said:

I mean, you can look at the value of the 1986-1987 Fleer MJ Rookie Card, which should be the gold standard of basketball cards, or the 1948 Mikan rookie card (if you want to talk age/scarcity)--neither of them is anywhere close to T206 or the 1952 Topps Mantle. Maybe they'll get there eventually, but the cultural cache isn't there for most basketball players. It seems like basketball cards are much more subject to quick flipping at a lower price point.

MJ is the only one that could do it, based on global recognition and his ability to stay in the spotlight with Nike and well timed marketing plays (e.g. Last Dance), err...."documentaries". 

I think as soccer becomes more popular in the USA those key RCs will run up the most. Just not Messi since you have to actually win an international competition to be in the GOAT discussion. 

[kimik]

3 minutes ago, fishbone said:

I think that T206 was found to be trimmed at the end of the day .... so not sure that one would be in the running

There are plenty of rumors about it, but who knows. Right now that is still the highest graded copy, right?

[kimik]

4 minutes ago, fishbone said:

But I'm fairly sure those cards that are 10's are true 10's - you can't, from my knowledge, do anything to cardboard cards (expect illegal trimming) that can bump a card from 9 or 9.5 to 10......of course, with pressing and such,  comics can be bumped.

I thought that you can press cards as well? Micro trimming is definitely the bigger issue with cards.

As far as comics, that is definitely the big question re: top AC 1 and Tec 27 copies.

That being said, paintings are restored/cleaned on a regular basis to maintain them which does not diminish the value. I think longer term the comic collecting community will come to view dry cleaning and pressing the same.

Edited December 18, 2020 by kimik

[Hamlet]

33 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

This statement displeases me.

I think you are looking at it wrong.  We’ve been priced out of owning the big Marvel keys because we aren’t willing to spend the insane money that others have bid them up to.  However, people aren’t bidding the Timely books up in the same way.  When we were kids, the Timely books were mythical books that we felt would be forever unobtainable.  We can now obtain them because the market has focused on piling all of their money into the same 50 books.  I think I need to acquire a Timely or two.

[bpc3qh]

14 minutes ago, kimik said:

There are plenty of rumors about it, but who knows. Right now that is still the highest graded copy, right?

The Gretzky T206 is confirmed as trimmed. There's a lot you can do cards--trim them, clean them, etc. The Athletic ran a good article a few months ago. Trimming is much more important for sports cards because so many of the aspects of grading can be fixed with trimming.

[lou_fine]

2 hours ago, bpc3qh said:

Trimming is much more important for sports cards because so many of the aspects of grading can be fixed with trimming.

Didn't Jason and Via proved the same thing with comic books as they managed to get CGC label collectors to pay ridiculous and unheard of multiples for those so-called "perfect" looking books before Borock came down with the hammer on them for their nefarious deeds.    

[bpc3qh]

Just now, lou_fine said:

Didn't Jason and Via proved the same thing with comic books as they managed to get CGC label collectors to pay ridiculous and unheard of multiples for those so-called "perfect" looking books before Borock came down with the hammer on them for their nefarious deeds.    

My impression is that, on the sports card side, there really isn't such a thing as "color touch", or "pieces added", or any of the other common areas of restoration which typically shows up in a restored comic. Obviously unscrupulous sellers exist everywhere, but my point is that there are a lot more different ways of restoration in comics; there's really on such thing as Slight (C-1) for cards.

[Aman619]

EDIT#1 --- hang on.  Im checking what I posted, and reading an article where Mastro admitted in court to having bought the card for 25K and trimmed all sides.  Id like to stick to my story below having heard it firsthand by a knowledgable source a long time ago, but, may just be a run of the milll dealer-trimmed card after all.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/mastro-admits-cutting-honus-card-article-1.1482098

 

EDIT#2 --- and further clarification from 3 years later when a pretty nice unaltered T206 went to auction, combines both stories of the card.  It was trimmed from an uncut sheet by the guy that Mastro bought it from. Mastro further refined the edges... 

For years, the allegation of trimming had clung to Mastro like bubblegum to pasteboard.  In their lively 2007 book, The Card, the New York Daily News’ Teri Thompson and Michael O’Keeffe  alleged that the Wagner had been sloppily cut from an in-tact T206 sheet at a card shop in Long Island. “Either [the perpetrators] committed the most heinous crime in card-doctoring history or a stunt worthy of the Keystone Cops,” they wrote.

In 1985 Mastro bought it for $25,000 and flipped it for $110,000 two years later. “Mastro always swatted away rumors that the ‘The Card’ had been altered, flying into a rage at the slightest suggestion that its bright colors, clean edges, and sharp corners are the result of skillful surgery,” the authors wrote.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidseideman/2016/09/22/a-heinous-crime-may-be-lifting-a-1-8-million-honus-wagner-card-now-up-for-auction/?sh=2e72b5487854

- - - - - - - - - -

the Gretzky T206 isn't "trimmed"!  Well, not as we usually use the term.  It was never released as a card... it was CUT OUT of an uncut sheet. This was confirmed to me by the head of Fleer in the 90s. (and books and articles have reported the same. Its been a "not so secret" secret that hasn't affected its value or demand when sold up til now. Probably because its so scarce (due to being recalled) that there isn't a close HG alternative. If there was an UNRESTORED card the Gretzky might lose much of its allure as the key collectible baseball card.

Edited December 18, 2020 by Aman619

[bpc3qh]

18 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

hang on.  Im checking what I posted, and reading an article where Mastro admitted in court to having bought the card for 25K and trimmed all sides.  Id like to stick to my story below having heard it firsthand by a knowledgable source a long time ago, but, may just be a run of the milll dealer-trimmed card after all.

https://www.nydailynews.com/sports/i-team/mastro-admits-cutting-honus-card-article-1.1482098

- - - - - - - - - -

the Gretzky T206 isn't "trimmed"!  Well, not as we usually use the term.  It was never released as a card... it was CUT OUT of an uncut sheet. This was confirmed to me by the head of Fleer in the 90s. (and books and articles have reported the same. Its been a "not so secret" secret that hasn't affected its value or demand when sold up til now. Probably because its so scarce (due to being recalled) that there isn't a close HG alternative. If there was an UNRESTORED card the Gretzky might lose much of its allure as the key collectible baseball card.

Hmm, that's interesting. It seems like the Gretzky T206 is in a weird netherworld where it's not unrestored, but doesn't have the full opprobrium of being "Restored". I think you're right--if another, similarly high grade, verifiably unrestored copy came to market, the Gretzky card would suffer, and this new card would likely sell for a higher premium.

[Aman619]

I just updated again... it was cut out from the sheet, sold for 25K to Mastro who trimmed it better and resold it (he was jailed for fraud and shill bidding in his own company auctions).. 

[engelhard]

On 12/17/2020 at 12:13 PM, zen514 said:

Im sure everyone doesnt Know Superman or Batman.

Everyone knows Wagner... 

Hes also dead. Rip.

 

Wagner had a big head start value wise. 

 

Supes and Bats live forever 

 

Also its a comic book forum so gotta go with its holy grail. 

Everyone all over the world knows who Superman and Batman are.... but Wagner? im here in the states and i have no clue.. which football team did he play on?

[Crowzilla]

18 hours ago, waaaghboss said:

I'd bet cash money that at least half, if not more, of anyone under the age of 25 has never heard of wagner.

Doesn't really matter since none of that under-25 age group is spending $3 million on a card or comic.

[waaaghboss]

11 minutes ago, Crowzilla said:

Doesn't really matter since none of that under-25 age group is spending $3 million on a card or comic.

Which is ok, the guy I was replying to was saying that more people have heard of Wagner than superman, which I really don't think is the case.  

Ask a dozen people you know who aren't collectors if they've heard of superman.   Now do the same with Wagner.  Id be curious to hear your results.  

Edited December 19, 2020 by waaaghboss

[clarkkentdds]

I am only a casual follower of sports cards, but it seems like cards of all sports are lately blowing up way more than comics ... not sure why this is. 

[StuporMan]

Seriously, a lot of those Heritage bidders were not looking at BIN on the bay and overbidding. There's so much supply out there to not be buying a PSA 6 Mantle '67 over guide. T206? outside of rareness for rareness, who really cares about b-list players from 1909?

[tth2]

12 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

12 hours ago, tth2 said:

 

In contrast, the biggest comics in our hobby (Church Action 1, AT Tec 27, Church Batman 1, Superman 1 (which is not a pedigree as far as I know), Church Marvel Comics 1, AT Captain America 1) are all tucked away, unlikely to ever emerge in my lifetime. 

You left off the Church MC 1.  

[tth2]

11 hours ago, kimik said:

Maybe I am mistaken, but I think the only GA mega keys that will top T206 are Action 1 and Batman 1.

You think the best Batman 1 is worth more than the best Detective 27?!  I'll take the bet against that every day of the week!

11 hours ago, kimik said:

The Timely keys are important books, but are far less significant from a new character perspective which hurts their value. That applies to Batman 1 and Superman 1 as well.

I listed those specific copies not because I think they'd sell for more than the T206, but as examples of how the biggest copies in our hobby simply don't move.  Of the copies I listed, the last time one of them sold (as far as I know) was the AT Captain America 1, which sold fairly on in the history of CGC, so almost 20 years ago.  In fact, I think it's the only book among those that I listed that has even been CGC'd.  

[tth2]

12 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

12 hours ago, tth2 said:

 

In contrast, the biggest comics in our hobby (Church Action 1, AT Tec 27, Church Batman 1, Superman 1 (which is not a pedigree as far as I know), Church Marvel Comics 1, AT Captain America 1) are all tucked away, unlikely to ever emerge in my lifetime. 

You left off the Church MC 1.  But do we really know that about the Church Mc 1 and AT CA 1?

John Verzyl was the owner of the Church Marvel Comics 1 and Allentown Captain America 1 and has passed away, but his heirs have given no indication that they will be selling them. 

[MusterMark]

16 hours ago, SuperBird said:

I'm barely aware of who Mike Trout is. Who watches baseball anymore? zzzzzz

  Trout is a big fish.

Which reminds me:  I wonder how much the rookie card of Tim Salmon goes for?

Or the rookie card of former pitcher Anthony Bass.

I guess I'm angling for some more info, if any one will take the bait and offer it.  Who knows, if I like these cards enough, I might get hooked.