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Part 2: A-Level Panel Page Valuations by Artist/Run
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260 posts in this topic

10 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

Just curious. What do you think of this list, it's general accuracy or lack thereof and it's usefulness to collectors, at least in the short term? You don't have to answer...just wondering, and you might have your own intuitive price guide based on your own bias and experience and thus irrelevant (to you), but I'd be interested in feedback if you were so inclined.

Thanks for asking. This list is a datapoint* to me.

I have many datapoints and marry them together for my own purposes and biases** situationally, as a buyer (almost always) or a seller (almost never). If I shared them, as you say: irrelevant to most (until I write a deathbed tell-all, I guess) but also "no anyway" cuz: proprietary :)

So, the list serves a purpose, but the output (The List) is only as good as the inputs less static (consensus sentiment bias, unintentional or intentional manipulation, weak reasoning, etc). And on the Venn Diagram of Value, for me anyway, it occupies a place that overlaps with few others. I'll note too, as a reminder for those that have seen me comment this way before, that I draw great distinction between price and value. The List is price not value. And value is not about "low" or "cheap" it's about the actual quality of the object relative to it's ease to acquire and/or replace if sold/lost. Value would be the largest pool I swim in, the one that doesn't share much Venn space with The List.

 

* It's many points collectively, but 'one' datapoint per line item, I don't see it so much as the single "catch all" that others may.

**My biggest bias is that past performance is not indicative of future results. That line trajectory trap that's pretty easy to fall into, what I call the "consensus trap", only keeps going up (or down) until...it doesn't ;)

https://www.wsws.org/asset/e1c8b6a1-9358-4327-8759-f1ef038bdbcE/chart.jpg?rendition=image480

Edited by vodou
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I always welcome shared insights and opinions whether aligned or in contrast with my own.  A price guide for what ultimately are one-of-a-kind items is unrealistic.  Rather, I believe there is value in exploring perceived A-level page values by popular artists/runs derived from collective experience and market data to serve as a helpful resource. I can think of several reasons including:

(1)  Relative values.  The tiering approach (as Lago32 introduced in 2014) aims to provide high-level groupings of artist/runs with perceived similar values.  It is not a proxy for demand, scarcity or even desirability.  Naturally, there are other factors (characters, content, aesthetics, nostalgia, etc.) that affect personal interest and value for every collector.  This list offers relative value tiers that I find useful for budgeting (want list), auctions (price expectations) and sizing up potential transactions.

(2)  Breadth.  The diversity of art across ages, genres, artists, titles, publishers, etc. is staggering to me, and most collectors only develop specialized knowledge/focus in a few areas....but still want to understand market dynamics in other areas.  This list brings together view points across many titles and artists that I won't necessarily follow in detail.  Personally, I like having a quick reference sheet for future deals and/or knowing that recent auction results for say Jones Sandman or Tradd Moore SSB "blew the lid off" its assigned tier implying it's an A+  or otherwise noteworthy example to check out.

(3)  Collective input.   True consensus is impossible but the list does reflect collective and voluntary (if not democratic) input.  I know Hari, Gene, Scott and as experienced collectors that bring valuable perspective and applaud them for taking initiative to update the list and coordinate input from others.  I don't see anything self-serving and rather encourage folks to advocate / debate if additional facts or first-hand experience suggest otherwise.  Input from dealers who speak to recent (and verifiable) sales rather than what's in inventory should be welcome...besides, there are so many hybrid collector-dealers or dealer-collectors these days.

(4)  Current perspective.   People already say "2020 values are obsolete", so other backward-looking references (HA archives, CAF Market Data) become even less useful.  As a steady and active buyer, I'm keen on market awareness to better inform my decision-making and price discipline, and this list does that along with direct input from fellow collectors.  Hopefully, this reference tool will be continually updated to ensure its relevance.

(5)  Trend lines.  Aside form the list itself, I enjoy looking at how perceived values for certain artists/runs have changed since the original 2014 list...what has increased or decreased more relative to others, even while the overall market values have risen.  For certain artists whose work spans different decades and titles, it helps to know how the market their work.  For example, BWS values have been volatile in recent years with Conan and Weapon X experiencing different trend lines.  So, what about his Avengers, Machine Man and X-Men pages?  It's this type of questions this list aims to inform.

Suffice it to say that I'm supportive of this and look forward to continued dialogue and constructive debate....it's the reason many of us joined this forum and post art to share and engage with other collectors.   

Edited by GreatEscape
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2 hours ago, heartened said:

Thanks Scott.  Sounds like the hobby has changed in the 20 years we've been doing it.  People always voiced their opinions back in the day, and there was no need for minority reports so to speak!  Also, it seems there's a bit of a dealer versus collector mentality nowadays that we also didn't have, but probably because Glen, Will, and others were collectors and not dealers back then.  Active discourse is important, and this list only works that way.  I took the lack of comments to be that people agreed, but perhaps people are just much more reticent than they used to be.  This is certainly not my list, or there would be no need to share it.  On the contrary, if I had my own values and prices I certainly wouldn't share them with the world (as I'm still actively buying).  I've been away for a while, so I'm just now getting a feel for where the collectors base has evolved, for better or worse.  Voudou, you don't always have to be on the defense or be what you perceive as a contrary or minority view.  Just simply be a view.  And for the "dealers" watching, please do comment.  I saw on another thread some of them seem to be on the defense these days too, but they all know me well and know me to be fair and also only interested in the hobby as a whole.  As you know, Scott, my main interest back in the day was organizing the large gatherings.  That's what I've always wanted this hobby to be about, values high or values low that should remain.  Hopefully we're not too far off from those days.

 

I think the main difference over the last 20 years has been the price increase! While I do now purchase in a couple of the tiers you’ve set, I’d imagine a lot of posters here do not, and don’t have input on these tiers. I understand it would get too broad in scope at the lower levels to make that list, but I would guess that’s where the majority of collecting happens for the casual readers, lurkers and forum members, hence the lack of input from them. Of course, I’m newish here, so could be way off. 
 

For my part—not that anyone should care—I only commented on the one aspect I felt like I was knowledgeable enough to add anything, and my question was quickly addressed. I am a jack-of-all-trades collector that has transitioned into an OA collector over the last 4-5 years, and am learning the ropes, so to speak. I bought secret wars pages, but that was mostly the extent. I prefer to let the knowledgeable people inform, and soak up their info, rather than muck up the process with input that has to be “fixed.” That could be the thought process for some others, too.

Thank you to all of you doing this, though. It’s very helpful to see prices and the thinking behind the prices, and is very much appreciated. 

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2 hours ago, Carlo M said:

Here is where I have a bit of a problem with the list.  I think the list refers to a quality level for interior pages that is very very rarely seen publicly.  Can someone give us an example of a mid '70s Kirby interior panel page fetching a mid teens number?  I really don't recall that.  Can we get a few examples of what an A page is? Because if people are referring strictly to four panels with the hero fighting his archenemy in each panel (so basically Spider Man vs Green Goblin or full X-Men vs Magneto with Phoenix or Wolverine claws out, or Avengers vs Ultron screaming "Avengers assemble" or FF vs Doom with the Thing shouting "its clobbering time"), then the prices make sense, but people need to be aware that we are talking about a very select number of pages (like 4/5 per run).  Such high quality pages are hardly comparable with anything else, and you can get huge variance in pricing (hence ranges are appropriate).  A few examples would be very very useful to keep the list within the right context.

I think that's why it's the "A" page valuation.  Of course there is some subjectivity and everyone will think their page is the most special in the world, but you captured it, 4 panels, main hero fighting main villain would be an A page

Malvin

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3 hours ago, Carlo M said:

Here is where I have a bit of a problem with the list.  I think the list refers to a quality level for interior pages that is very very rarely seen publicly.  Can someone give us an example of a mid '70s Kirby interior panel page fetching a mid teens number?  I really don't recall that.  Can we get a few examples of what an A page is? Because if people are referring strictly to four panels with the hero fighting his archenemy in each panel (so basically Spider Man vs Green Goblin or full X-Men vs Magneto with Phoenix or Wolverine claws out, or Avengers vs Ultron screaming "Avengers assemble" or FF vs Doom with the Thing shouting "its clobbering time"), then the prices make sense, but people need to be aware that we are talking about a very select number of pages (like 4/5 per run).  Such high quality pages are hardly comparable with anything else, and you can get huge variance in pricing (hence ranges are appropriate).  A few examples would be very very useful to keep the list within the right context.

Hi,

Yes, as Malvin says below, an A page is a "special keeper page" which kind of has what everyone wants by that artist on that run.  I defined it as top 20% of pages by that artist.  But, I totally agree that people should call a challenge if they don't agree or haven't seen an example of a page going for the tier we are placing them in.  To be honest, challenging these values is the only way to move them up or down.  And, to be clear, they don't always have to move up.  Happy to move things down if the tide turns and consensus shows we put it too high.  To Voudou's previous point, we do have to be careful here and not simply put art in people's "wishful thinking" tier. 

So please, chime in as we are starting to do!!  This is exactly what we have needed. 

I don't collect 70s Kirby, so let's hear what the experts of that era think (with examples where available).  It may very well be that not just DC but also Marvel work drops to the 5-10K tier.

Edited by heartened
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4 hours ago, cloud cloddie said:

If this list is based on “A” pages, you probably need to bump up Sienkiewicz New Mutants. Standard pages have been going 3-5 for a bit. But A pages are gonna be 5-10, and Demon Bear probably 10K plus. 

I second that.  And A-level Demon bear pages are easily $10K+

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23 hours ago, GreatEscape said:

I always welcome shared insights and opinions whether aligned or in contrast with my own.  A price guide for what ultimately are one-of-a-kind items is unrealistic.  Rather, I believe there is value in exploring perceived A-level page values by popular artists/runs derived from collective experience and market data to serve as a helpful resource. I can think of several reasons including:

(1)  Relative values.  The tiering approach (as Lago32 introduced in 2014) aims to provide high-level groupings of artist/runs with perceived similar values.  It is not a proxy for demand, scarcity or even desirability.  Naturally, there are other factors (characters, content, aesthetics, nostalgia, etc.) that affect personal interest and value for every collector.  This list offers relative value tiers that I find useful for budgeting (want list), auctions (price expectations) and sizing up potential transactions.

(2)  Breadth.  The diversity of art across ages, genres, artists, titles, publishers, etc. is staggering to me, and most collectors only develop specialized knowledge/focus in a few areas....but still want to understand market dynamics in other areas.  This list brings together view points across many titles and artists that I won't necessarily follow in detail.  Personally, I like having a quick reference sheet for future deals and/or knowing that recent auction results for say Jones Sandman or Tradd Moore SSB "blew the lid off" its assigned tier implying it's an A+  or otherwise noteworthy example to check out.

(3)  Collective input.   True consensus is impossible but the list does reflect collective and voluntary (if not democratic) input.  I know Hari, Gene, Scott and as experienced collectors that bring valuable perspective and applaud them for taking initiative to update the list and coordinate input from others.  I don't see anything self-serving and rather encourage folks to advocate / debate if additional facts or first-hand experience suggest otherwise.  Input from dealers who speak to recent (and verifiable) sales rather than what's in inventory should be welcome...besides, there are so many hybrid collector-dealers or dealer-collectors these days.

(4)  Current perspective.   People already say "2020 values are obsolete", so other backward-looking references (HA archives, CAF Market Data) become even less useful.  As a steady and active buyer, I'm keen on market awareness to better inform my decision-making and price discipline, and this list does that along with direct input from fellow collectors.  Hopefully, this reference tool will be continually updated to ensure its relevance.

(5)  Trend lines.  Aside form the list itself, I enjoy looking at how perceived values for certain artists/runs have changed since the original 2014 list...what has increased or decreased more relative to others, even while the overall market values have risen.  For certain artists whose work spans different decades and titles, it helps to know how the market their work.  For example, BWS values have been volatile in recent years with Conan and Weapon X experiencing different trend lines.  So, what about his Avengers, Machine Man and X-Men pages?  It's this type of questions this list aims to inform.

Suffice it to say that I'm supportive of this and look forward to continued dialogue and constructive debate....it's the reason many of us joined this forum and post art to share and engage with other collectors.   

Great post.  Thanks for summarizing so eloquently.

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15 hours ago, heartened said:

Hi,

Yes, as Malvin says below, an A page is a "special keeper page" which kind of has what everyone wants by that artist on that run.  I defined it as top 20% of pages by that artist.  But, I totally agree that people should call a challenge if they don't agree or haven't seen an example of a page going for the tier we are placing them in.  To be honest, challenging these values is the only way to move them up or down.  And, to be clear, they don't always have to move up.  Happy to move things down if the tide turns and consensus shows we put it too high.  To Voudou's previous point, we do have to be careful here and not simply put art in people's "wishful thinking" tier. 

So please, chime in as we are starting to do!!  This is exactly what we have needed. 

I don't collect 70s Kirby, so let's hear what the experts of that era think (with examples where available).  It may very well be that not just DC but also Marvel work drops to the 5-10K tier.

Where do full splashes fit on the scale? Assuming the content of the splash is good, are they A+? 

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2 minutes ago, Varanis said:

Where do full splashes fit on the scale? Assuming the content of the splash is good, are they A+? 

Yeah, in general I would think so, but again it depends on content.  Some interior A pages are better than the splash, which could drop all the way to B if there is no main character IMO.

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On 1/6/2021 at 11:10 PM, stinkininkin said:

Just curious. What do you think of this list, it's general accuracy or lack thereof and it's usefulness to collectors, at least in the short term? You don't have to answer...just wondering, and you might have your own intuitive price guide based on your own bias and experience and thus irrelevant (to you), but I'd be interested in feedback if you were so inclined.

I consider it a useful list and include it in my master list of sources for pricing information which I keep on this board. 
 

You can read it here. If there are other sources that I should include, please let me know. 

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47 minutes ago, alxjhnsn said:

I consider it a useful list and include it in my master list of sources for pricing information which I keep on this board. 
 

You can read it here. If there are other sources that I should include, please let me know. 

Thanks Alex.  You have the link to the 2014 thread.  Can you add this "Part 2" thread as well for a more contemporary valuation?  Very nice work putting that together!!

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4 hours ago, heartened said:

Thanks Alex.  You have the link to the 2014 thread.  Can you add this "Part 2" thread as well for a more contemporary valuation?  Very nice work putting that together!!

Yeah, I forgot to update it and someone reminded me on FB. It's done now.

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I presume everyone saw the result of the auction on the Tradd Moore unpublished piece. Valid speculation has a SSB cover selling for 50k. I wonder what even a “C” page would go for (though in my experience Tradd doesn’t produce C pages). 

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