Part 2: A-Level Panel Page Valuations by Artist/Run 7 7

[fishbone]

2 minutes ago, GreatEscape said:

Aside from the recent ASM #328 half-splash ($120k, fueled in part by book completist demand), Heritage really hasn’t offered a true A-level McSpidey page since 2017.  Owners just don’t want to part with them as the dozen would-be buyers that I know will attest. 

ComicLink sold a A/A+ page (1 Venom panel) for $58k in Oct 2020...I’d bet the new buyer would need 20% premium to even start discussions in today’s market

I know 2 collectors who declined offers on McSpidey pages at 2x what they paid 4 years ago when top McSpidey panel pages were already selling for 25k+ (A $26k from SM #2, A+ $46k from ASM #317) on Heritage.  I pressed, I would calibrate today’s A-level at 2x $26k (2017 sale) = $50k but that’s my own perspective (your mileage may vary). 

Note:  If anyone does have an A-level McSpidey page for sale at $30k, please PM me asap. 

[heartened]

18 minutes ago, fishbone said:

Great info, you two.  I think lowering it to 50K+ makes sense.  Will do that for now and see if others would like to chime in.

[Chaykin Stevens]

6 hours ago, heartened said:

Where are you getting 80K from?

Isn't the Above $60k tier implicitly $60-80k, as the next tier is Above $80k?

[Aahz]

On 12/31/2020 at 8:05 PM, heartened said:

Hi everyone, hats off to Lago32 for the initial idea in 2014, and to Alxjhnsn for this idea to create an all-new thread so I can keep this at the top of the thread and update over time, while keeping the original valuations from 2014 on the other thread.  I have also reorganized in alphabetical order.  Please post comments below, and I will keep updating.  The ranges are what an A level Panel Page would value.  In the definitions, we define A page and also art above and below this level.

 

DEFINITIONS

Covers or Pages that Transcend Artist/Run (eg. major first app) are 3 to 6X       

A+, an Exceptional Page (top 5%, eg. key story, battle page, key character app) is 1.5 to 2X                                                              

A , a Special Keeper Page (top 20%, eg. little need to upgrade, "classic" example from run/story) is 1X                                                    

B, a Nice Representative Example (top 50%, eg. solid, recognizable) is 0.5 to 0.75X                                       

C, a Placeholder / Might Upgrade (bottom 50%, eg. would like to upgrade if possible) is 0.25 to 0.40X                                 

 

 

 

 

OK, Stupid question, and I am sorry if I missed this in these posts somewhere, but how have you determined the base costs to begin with?  Consensus?  For example (looking at the Sandman pages), I recently got a regular story page from the original series with no main characters for $700, which I thought is was an ok price.  So would that viewed as a base page that falls under the "C" level?

[heartened]

28 minutes ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

Isn't the Above $60k tier implicitly $60-80k, as the next tier is Above $80k?

Yes

[heartened]

1 hour ago, Heidjer Staecker said:

OK, Stupid question, and I am sorry if I missed this in these posts somewhere, but how have you determined the base costs to begin with?  Consensus?  For example (looking at the Sandman pages), I recently got a regular story page from the original series with no main characters for $700, which I thought is was an ok price.  So would that viewed as a base page that falls under the "C" level?

Yes, C would be pages that are placeholders, which is what you seem to be describing (no main character, not an important story, etc.).  Seems like a really good deal, but when you say the "original series" I'm not sure what you mean.  Let us know what issue number and artist.  The high prices for Sandman are really dependent on story arc and artist, and then content within that.

Edited January 21, 2021 by heartened

[Aahz]

1 hour ago, heartened said:

Yes, C would be pages that are placeholders, which is what you seem to be describing (no main character, not an important story, etc.).  Seems like a really good deal, but when you say the "original series" I'm not sure what you mean.  Let us know what issue number and artist.  The high prices for Sandman are really dependent on story arc and artist, and then content within that.

Fair point.  Technically the Kirby Sandman series is the original one, but I meant the original Gaiman series that which has 75 issues and is commanding high prices.  There were a number of Sandmanesq spinouts and followups that I am not including.  I'm just looking at the pricing rubric and its 4X (or something), I'm trying to determine 4 times what ... what is the base price in these cases ... a non-key page from within those 75 issues?  a non-key buy the same artist in those issues?  etc.  I don't really care about the prices, but I'm curious how a rubric like this can work on a collectible with so many variables.

[Carlo M]

42 minutes ago, Heidjer Staecker said:

Fair point.  Technically the Kirby Sandman series is the original one, but I meant the original Gaiman series that which has 75 issues and is commanding high prices.  There were a number of Sandmanesq spinouts and followups that I am not including.  I'm just looking at the pricing rubric and its 4X (or something), I'm trying to determine 4 times what ... what is the base price in these cases ... a non-key page from within those 75 issues?  a non-key buy the same artist in those issues?  etc.  I don't really care about the prices, but I'm curious how a rubric like this can work on a collectible with so many variables.

You raise a good point.  It will never be a science.  Even the definition of A page is vague at best.  Take this standard size Kirby Thor page that sold at HA for 19k.  In my book this is an A page (four panels with title character in each panel, at least two strong shots, etc.). So this would belong to the 10-20 range, as currently envisaged.   Yet I take it some boardies have a stricter definition: an A page should be a super top example, with four panels, each showing the main character fighting his / her arch viallin (see the SM vs Venom example), strictly inked by the best inking match (like Byrne Austin or Lee Williams). If it is a group book, then most team members should be featured.   We are talking 4/5 examples per run at best.  Based on this definition, and based on the HA sale, Thor standard size A page by Kirby  would belong to the 20-40 k range, which does not feel right.

So I think the right approach is to remain a bit loose, keep wide ranges, and not try to be too scientific about it.  If people recognise that there will never be a mathematical formula to price this stuff, the list can be super fun to follow.

Edited January 21, 2021 by Carlo M
Typo

[heartened]

29 minutes ago, Carlo M said:

You raise a good point.  It will never be a science.  Even the definition of A page is vague at best.  Take this standard size Kirby Thor page that sold at HA for 19k.  In my book this is an A page (four panels with title character in each panel, at least two strong shots, etc.). So this would belong to the 10-20 range, as currently envisaged.   Yet I take it some boardies have a stricter definition: an A page should be a super top example, with four panels, each showing the main character fighting his / her arch viallin (see the SM vs Venom example), strictly inked by the best inking match (like Byrne Austin or Lee Williams). If it is a group book, then most team members should be featured.   We are talking 4/5 examples per run at best.  Based on this definition, and based on the HA sale, Thor standard size A page by Kirby  would belong to the 20-40 k range, which does not feel right.

So I think the right approach is to remain a bit loose, keep wide ranges, and not try to be too scientific about it.  If people recognise that there will never be a mathematical formula to price this stuff, the list can be super fun to follow.

Agreed, this is an A page.  The other theoretic page would be considered an A+ page in my opinion.

[heartened]

1 hour ago, Heidjer Staecker said:

Fair point.  Technically the Kirby Sandman series is the original one, but I meant the original Gaiman series that which has 75 issues and is commanding high prices.  There were a number of Sandmanesq spinouts and followups that I am not including.  I'm just looking at the pricing rubric and its 4X (or something), I'm trying to determine 4 times what ... what is the base price in these cases ... a non-key page from within those 75 issues?  a non-key buy the same artist in those issues?  etc.  I don't really care about the prices, but I'm curious how a rubric like this can work on a collectible with so many variables.

In our rubric, the A page is the point of deviation and pricing.  Everything below is a fraction and everything above is a multiplier.  Our prices we have for sandman are for the 4 or so main artists that are coveted.  If your page isn't by one of those artists, then it is not included in the rubric currently.  We are happy to add more artists but their A pages must fall at least at the bottom (3-5K) tier to be included in this.

[Aahz]

24 minutes ago, heartened said:

In our rubric, the A page is the point of deviation and pricing.  Everything below is a fraction and everything above is a multiplier.  Our prices we have for sandman are for the 4 or so main artists that are coveted.  If your page isn't by one of those artists, then it is not included in the rubric currently.  We are happy to add more artists but their A pages must fall at least at the bottom (3-5K) tier to be included in this.

Got it.  Again, I don't care as much about the pricing.  I have what I consider a key page from later in the run ... well it's key to me. :-)   It was more about understanding the rubric.  Thanks for indulging my question!

[heartened]

Just now, Heidjer Staecker said:

Got it.  Again, I don't care as much about the pricing.  I have what I consider a key page from later in the run ... well it's key to me. :-)   It was more about understanding the rubric.  Thanks for indulging my question!

Ah got it, yes I hope we answered your questions.  It is never going to be perfect, but consensus is about as perfect as we can get in a subjective hobby where one of a kind pieces are involved.  We are trying to put individual pieces into artificial groups, but this is something we have been doing for years informally in the hobby anyway.  Thanks for your comments!

[Chaykin Stevens]

Re Don Heck X-Men in the $5-10k tier, is it known which of his issues were 2up?  According to the old thread, the last 2up issues of Amazing Spider-Man and Fantastic Four were cover dated October 1967, and I think the first X-Men issue Heck pencilled dates from the month after that. Also, might Werner Roth 2up X-Men be a candidate for adding to the list? According to Comic Art Tracker, Heritage sold four panel pages in the $5-10k bracket between 2014 and 2017.

Edited January 26, 2021 by Chaykin Stevens

[Varanis]

On 1/12/2021 at 4:07 PM, Varanis said:

This will probably set the floor for Tradd's work. I think I would call this a C page - no hero + a blank panel. Still lots of fantastic detail and action though.

https://www.comiclink.com/auctions/item.asp?back=%2FAUCTIONS%2FSEARCH.ASP%3FFocusedOnly%3D1%26where%3Dauctions%26title%3Dtradd%26ItemType%3DCA%23Item_1453466&id=1453466&itemType=1

I'm pretty bullish on Tradd's work, and I'll be honest, this result still blew me away. I'm really curious what this means for the market for his art as a whole.

[heartened]

14 hours ago, Varanis said:

I'm pretty bullish on Tradd's work, and I'll be honest, this result still blew me away. I'm really curious what this means for the market for his art as a whole.

Not sure.  We have his SSB works in the 10-20K which seems appropriate still, but we could I suppose add some of his other runs/titles to a lower tier.  Feel free to post some recommended values here and see what others think.

[Varanis]

1 hour ago, heartened said:

Not sure.  We have his SSB works in the 10-20K which seems appropriate still, but we could I suppose add some of his other runs/titles to a lower tier.  Feel free to post some recommended values here and see what others think.

I think we'd need more results. This result seems to imply $2500 is near the bottom for his Big 2 work. This page sold for more than a cover from the same series did 4-6 months ago. For now, just something to keep an eye on.

[Chaykin Stevens]

I've been trying to think of possible candidates to add to the list.  Does anyone know what any of these might change hands for, if they ever do?

Howard Chaykin Star Wars
Gene Colan 60s Avengers
Robert Crumb - Comic Art Tracker has various panel pages that sold for six figures on Heritage
Alan Davis Captain Britain (stories written by Alan Moore)
Alan Davis DR and Quinch (stories written by Alan Moore)
Michael Golden Micronauts
Marc Hempel Sandman
Gil Kane Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gil Kane Cap in Tales of Suspense
Gil Kane Daredevil
Jack Kirby Sgt. Fury
David Mazzucchelli Batman Year One
Mike McMahon Judge Dredd
Todd McFarlane Batman Year Two in Detective Comics
Frank Miller Elektra Lives Again
Spain Rodriguez Trashman etc
John Romita sr Daredevil
John Romita Sr 50s Cap
John Romita Sr 70s Cap
Marie Severin 2up Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gilbert Shelton Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers etc
Jim Starlin MOKF
Jim Steranko Cap
S Clay Wilson Checkererd Demon etc - Comic Art Tracker has various panel gages that sold for between 8k and 52k on Heritage

Edited February 6, 2021 by Chaykin Stevens

[malvin]

30 minutes ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

I've been trying to think of possible candidates to add to the list.  Does anyone know what any of these might these change hands for, if they ever do?

Howard Chaykin Star Wars
Gene Colan 60s Avengers
Robert Crumb - Comic Art Tracker has various panel pages that sold for six figures on Heritage
Alan Davis Captain Britain (stories written by Alan Moore)
Alan Davis DR and Quinch (stories written by Alan Moore)
Michael Golden Micronauts
Marc Hempel Sandman
Gil Kane Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gil Kane Cap in Tales of Suspense
Gil Kane Daredevil
Jack Kirby Sgt. Fury
David Mazzucchelli Batman Year One
Mike McMahon Judge Dredd
Todd McFarlane Batman Year Two in Detective Comics
Frank Miller Elektra Lives Again
Spain Rodriguez Trashman etc
John Romita sr Daredevil
John Romita Sr 50s Cap
John Romita Sr 70s Cap
Marie Severin 2up Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gilbert Shelton Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers etc
Jim Starlin MOKF
Jim Steranko Cap
S Clay Wilson Checkererd Demon etc - Comic Art Tracker has various panel gages that sold for between 8k and 52k on Heritage

I'll answer the easy one.  There are no published David Mazzucchelli Batman Year One pages in the market, so no possible data point there.

Malvin

[heartened]

4 hours ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

I've been trying to think of possible candidates to add to the list.  Does anyone know what any of these might change hands for, if they ever do?

Howard Chaykin Star Wars
Gene Colan 60s Avengers
Robert Crumb - Comic Art Tracker has various panel pages that sold for six figures on Heritage
Alan Davis Captain Britain (stories written by Alan Moore)
Alan Davis DR and Quinch (stories written by Alan Moore)
Michael Golden Micronauts
Marc Hempel Sandman
Gil Kane Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gil Kane Cap in Tales of Suspense
Gil Kane Daredevil
Jack Kirby Sgt. Fury
David Mazzucchelli Batman Year One
Mike McMahon Judge Dredd
Todd McFarlane Batman Year Two in Detective Comics
Frank Miller Elektra Lives Again
Spain Rodriguez Trashman etc
John Romita sr Daredevil
John Romita Sr 50s Cap
John Romita Sr 70s Cap
Marie Severin 2up Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gilbert Shelton Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers etc
Jim Starlin MOKF
Jim Steranko Cap
S Clay Wilson Checkererd Demon etc - Comic Art Tracker has various panel gages that sold for between 8k and 52k on Heritage

Steranko Cap seems locked up.  No public or private sales for panel pages that I know of in a while.  My guess would be same or higher than the X-Men/NFShield pages.

[artdealer]

21 hours ago, Chaykin Stevens said:

I've been trying to think of possible candidates to add to the list.  Does anyone know what any of these might change hands for, if they ever do?

Howard Chaykin Star Wars
Gene Colan 60s Avengers
Robert Crumb - Comic Art Tracker has various panel pages that sold for six figures on Heritage
Alan Davis Captain Britain (stories written by Alan Moore)
Alan Davis DR and Quinch (stories written by Alan Moore)
Michael Golden Micronauts
Marc Hempel Sandman
Gil Kane Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gil Kane Cap in Tales of Suspense
Gil Kane Daredevil
Jack Kirby Sgt. Fury
David Mazzucchelli Batman Year One
Mike McMahon Judge Dredd
Todd McFarlane Batman Year Two in Detective Comics
Frank Miller Elektra Lives Again
Spain Rodriguez Trashman etc
John Romita sr Daredevil
John Romita Sr 50s Cap
John Romita Sr 70s Cap
Marie Severin 2up Hulk in Tales to Astonish
Gilbert Shelton Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers etc
Jim Starlin MOKF
Jim Steranko Cap
S Clay Wilson Checkererd Demon etc - Comic Art Tracker has various panel gages that sold for between 8k and 52k on Heritage

Miller Elektra pages $8000-$22,000

amended.

Edited February 7, 2021 by artdealer