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I Don't Want Old Grails
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135 posts in this topic

4 hours ago, Comics4All said:

He isn't the greatest but I thought his style  worked well for the Hulk.

Here are some good examples of his style working for the Hulk and the Villians/Monsters he fights

 

hulk 161.jpg

hulk 139.jpg

hulk 169.jpg

hulk 148.jpg

I was 8 years old when I got my paper route and started buying the comics I wanted. The Hulk captured me especially after reading Fantastic Four 112. Something about the character grabbed me. Not the dumb hulk, but the one who detests those who bother him or dare to challenge his might.

The first Hulk comic I bought off the spinner was Hulk 166. By age 14 I owned everything Hulk: 1-6, TTA 59-101 and the full run up to current. Even all the appearances. I paid $50 for a Hulk1 that was hanging on the wall of a local comic store that was called Hobbits Fantasy Shoppe.

I still have strong sentimental feelings for those books though I currently own so few of them, and I appreciated Trimpe's art.

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I'm fairly young, but my favorite comic writer now is Otto Binder, and I in no way grew reading him lol . I think it's really just a matter of taste. I love reading the old GA Captain Marvel stories because they take me back to a different time. Every page is just dripping with history, and the stories tend to be pretty entertaining and even humorous. I feel the same about SA DC (an era most people find unbearable). 2c

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I like BA and SA because it was what I grew up with. I wasn't around the hobby after 1978 until about 2014. I knew it went through some tough times. That the way books were sold changed radically. The art changed and the quality was different. Even when I picked back up in 2014, I realized my 13 year old self understood the hobby better than I do. But through these forums-- I have expanded upon some of my interests like PHM, Kirby 4th world, and understanding and appreciating more about the golden age even especially the horror stuff.

I know jack about the 1990s and make no effort to know it or really judge it. If someone likes it-- great for them. I can barely stand stuff from the copper age (with some exceptions-- Thor and DD).

I've always found it strange how most ages of comics are pretty well defined through the copper age and then-- without warning-- everything is "modern age". We've been in a 30+ year age range? That seems either crazy or plain lazy that no one gave what might be two or three more comic ages. It seems very disrespectful to those eras.

Anyway-- like anything-- collect and read or don't whatever you like. No one should ever tell you you are doing it wrong. People can have strong opinions and act like they know what is best but they aren't YOU.

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On 1/8/2021 at 3:41 PM, D2 said:

How you haven't been banned yet is beyond me.

I didn't even realize you posted in this thread because I have you blocked. Unfortunately someone quoted your drivel.

If you want to participate in a genuine conversation, then by all means stay, but if all you can find yourself doing is trolling others, I recommend you leave.

Let me know how you thought that this reply made any sense.

Edit: For the record, you are the only one who has been warned and had posts removed, for interactions between us. ;)

Edited by Angel of Death
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On 1/8/2021 at 12:39 PM, D2 said:

I'm sure this is going to stir up some buzz, as I understand there is a definitive line between old collectors, that focus on Golden and Silver Age books, and Modern Age readers/collectors.... let's leave the speculators out of this, if at all possible...

 

Because this is a topic I'm curious about, which is based on the essential collecting, not the speculation market. 

 

I say this ahead of time, because I know, from a 'collecting', 'financial' perspective, these books are going up in value...  BUT

 

I don't like old grails. I don't want them. I'm 40 and clearly, doing the math, did not grow up reading books from the 70s and earlier. I got into reading books in the 90s... and yes, books that I read back then hold a special place in my heart. I appreciate and understand nostalgia very well.

So you'll never make any real money buying and selling comics, so what? Collect what you want. Enjoy it.

On 1/8/2021 at 12:39 PM, D2 said:

I guess my point is, specifically to, Hulk 181 let's say... I've read that issue, it's awful. The art is awful, the story is awful, the book is awful. I have absolutely zero interest in having it in my collection. Bragging rights, as it were, doesn't entice me as much as it does the price tag it demands just to own it. To say I own the '1st appearance of...' does not hold value to me anymore. That is my speculator talking.

Ok... so you have a very specific point of view that doesn't align with what history has shown. Once again, collect what you want. Enjoy it.  Why worry about what someone else thinks? 

On 1/8/2021 at 12:39 PM, D2 said:

 

From a reader and true collector point of view... I struggle with old books, because reading them now is very difficult. This holds true for almost all books I grew up with as well. I own zero books from my old reading days, the 90s. I've reread them. They are awful. Now this isn't true for all old books. I believe that DKR is still a masterpiece for instance. I still thoroughly enjoy reading Days of Future Past. I'm not saying all old books are garbage, but I have a hard time appreciating anything now that doesn't hold the test of time.

To 'hold the test of time' is being used in your own subjective personal view. 

On 1/8/2021 at 12:39 PM, D2 said:

Just to be clear, I also think most new books are garbage too lol. Just leveling the playing field.

Anyway, am I really the only one that feels this way? It seems so... but I don't know... just curious really.

You might be in the wrong hobby. 

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On 1/8/2021 at 3:35 PM, D2 said:

See I wish I had that. I don't... I enjoy and respect the zeitgeist of it. I can appreciate the era it was written in, and the creative force and the movement behind it all. I can read some of it, and get through it, but that surge or energy with reading 

I can't say that I completely void of nostalgia either. I still like Tim Burton's Batman movie, and have a hard time seeing that movie through anything than my own kid eyes of wonderment.

One of the things that will one day be lost on people who 'collect' comics, is the thrill of seeing that brand new book on the newsstand as a boy and being excited to pick it up and read it.

Each generation gets less of a thrill from that because comic books in each generation are less and less of the standard for entertainment. In 1945, what was available to look cooler to a kid than a glossy color comic book on the newsstand? TV was still black and white, mass produced color films were still 5 years away...

For me... even in 1975, the glossy look of a new comic was the coolest thing in the world.

By 1990, you had cable TV and 100 channels, movie theaters with 12 screens, video games, etc.

By 2000, you had even more, including the internet.

The ability for comic books to dazzle the eye over whatever else was out there long faded.

On 1/8/2021 at 3:35 PM, D2 said:

I guess to clarify my point on my reading preferences, I have found myself gravitating towards very certain and very specific reads that I have a true respect and admiration for. The time it was written is irrelevant to me, but I find people generally gravitate towards a certain 'era' or reading. Where I have come to find that isn't the case for me. I was just trying to illustrate how, even through nostalgia, hasn't really given me that love for any particular book or series, or even author.

People who've been around comics a long time, generally have interests in more than one era. You're not alone.

On 1/8/2021 at 3:35 PM, D2 said:

There are the exceptions! I think that's where my collecting needs stem from. I guess I just feel lost in the comic shuffle where all everyone ever talks about is that need to attain the holiest of holy grails and I don't understand the obsession, especially with those void of nostalgia for that specific book.

So don't take part in that conversation.

On 1/8/2021 at 3:35 PM, D2 said:

I think that's usually what causes it, the bombardment of drek collecting. What I have is wrong... meanwhile, it's really just the rereads that I'm lurking for. I'm glad I am not the only one though, minority sure, but felt singled out on collecting habits a bit.

Who's singling you out? Collect what you want. Enjoy it.

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On 1/8/2021 at 4:57 PM, Ken Aldred said:

I agree.


Every decade, Golden Age onwards, has a small number of comics with outstanding story and art, and a lot of mediocre-to-terrible material. No decade’s immune to that limitation.

That’s still a subjective statement, and there are different perceptions of those qualities out there that you just have to accept exist, rather than keep fretting about it.  There isn’t going to be a universal consensus.  

Better to focus on and get the most out of your own interpretation.

 

+100

As an example, just hearing people go on about 'Trimpe's terrible art' makes me wince. It's all subjective of course, BUT objectively, Marvel has resold those stories with his art for decades. That IS standing the test of time.

But as you said: "Better to focus on and get the most out of your own interpretation."

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On 1/8/2021 at 10:29 PM, Von Cichlid said:

Uncanny X-Men 125 - 142 is my favorite stretch of comics ever, with only 130 being a little too campy.  I would have gone earlier even, except for the somewhat weaker issues after 120 and 121.

I start it at 108, the first Byrne issue because I love Byrne's work from this period but yeah, either way great run.

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23 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

Each generation gets less of a thrill from that because comic books in each generation are less and less of the standard for entertainment. In 1945, what was available to look cooler to a kid than a glossy color comic book on the newsstand? TV was still black and white, mass produced color films were still 5 years away...

Looking at all those 1940s, 50s, 60s, newsstand and drug store pictures, showing rows of what were at that time new comics, always makes me drool. Can you imagine seeing that as a 10 year old? 

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On 1/8/2021 at 1:23 PM, Funnybooks said:

This is where you may have made a wrong turn...Spawn...

There was never a whinier undead "haint" than Spawn. Deadman was pretty whiny at first too, though. I guess all "haints" go through that. Unable to accept they are dead. That they no longer have earthly concerns. That they now have powers and abilities I wish I had. And cooler clothes. And a massive arsenal. Although if I came back as a "haint", I would be a little concerned if I was "A DEMON REBORN" and had ALL THIS WEAPONRY at my immediate disposal:

"Hey. NEAT! A rifle that spurts HELL-FIRE!!! Demon grenades that have little demons in them that attack other mean demons FOR me! AWE-SUUUMMMME!!!!. Waitaminnit. What am I going to need all THIS for? Who's AFTER me??? This could potentially SUCK! Gotta find Yo-LAWND-aaHHH! I miss her terribly and love her more than life (Death, insufficiently-thoughtful-person) itself! SHE will know what to do! OHHHYo-LAWND-aahhhh! I MISS you SO! AND the boy! Ohhhh my SON! I can't remember your name but I KNOW you are my SON!! And I sense you are in DANGERRRR! From some dude I had business dealings with who wears a black SUIT! With his hallmark 'FORGET-ME-NOT' in the LAPEL!!!! OHHHHH my SON! HOW I MISS YOOUUUU!!!"

Look on the bright side:

No more having to eat
No more having to poop.
No more working from dawn to dusk with little to show for it
No more paying taxes.
No more waiting in lines at the DMV, Piggly Wiggly or the bank.

"YAH! But I miss my family! I miss my kid!"

Hell, dood! You are hanging around your house more NOW as a "haint" than you did when you were alive!

Really not seeing any downsides yet.

Go find yourselves a pretty "haint" chick. Stop pining after your corporeal love interest you can't have now without hijacking some poor saps body. There's nothing cool about that to begin with. Inhabiting some poor jerks body, seducing your still grieving widow in hopes she sees something that reminds her of you in the personality, deciding it's unethical AFTER coitus and ditch her, then dump her, (See? You still have human tendencies!) breaking her heart all over again and walking away sadly into a Hell-Mist. Leaving the guys body and the guy confused as Hell with PTSD for the rest of his life:

"Wh-wh-where AM I? Last thing I remember, I was in Toledo. WHY AM I IN NEW YORK CITY??? HALP! PLEASE! SOMEONE HALP!"

There's really NOTHING worse than a "haint" that's self centered, egomaniacal, narcissistic and sort of sorry-not-sorry for the way he acted in corporeal life and expects everyone to be fine with their body being "borrowed".

"S-St-Steve? I-I-is that...YOU?"

"OHHHH! Yo-LAWND-aaHHH! You- you-you can...SEE ME? The REAL ME? OHHHYo-LAWND-aahhhh! I have MISSED you SO! NO! Do not LOOK upon me! For I am HIDEOUS, now! Let us have the COITUS NOW! Afterward, I shall LEAVE YOU! To ensure your SURVIVAL! And ALL of manKINDS survival!"

I could write comics, see? Throw me a lot of money and I'll produce a -script.

Edited by Randall Ries
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1 hour ago, Meecrab said:

Lucky you. I'd say 90% of GA is garbage if you're not buying them to flip/speculate - terrible stories with terrible art.

And ECs are not GA so you should read those :foryou:

While this may be partially true for GA super hero stories, I would argue that old Detective, crime and later science fiction and horror stories were great.

I would also say stories like The Spirit, that were on the fringes of Detective and Super hero were really great. 

There is even value in all those WWII super hero stories. Sure it's campy and over the top patriotic, but it was a period in our history where everyone was united against a common enemy. Everything was campy and over the top patriotic. 

And I just disagree about the art. It's all opinion of course, but many of my favorite artists are from the GA. I would list them, but the list is to long. 

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7 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

There was never a whinier undead "haint" than Spawn. Deadman was pretty whiny at first too, though. I guess all "haints" go through that. Unable to accept they are dead. That they no longer have earthly concerns. That they now have powers and abilities I wish I had. And cooler clothes. And a massive arsenal. Although if I came back as a "haint", I would be a little concerned if I was "A DEMON REBORN" and had ALL THIS WEAPONRY at my immediate disposal:

"Hey. NEAT! A rifle that spurts HELL-FIRE!!! Demon grenades that have little demons in them that attack other mean demons FOR me! AWE-SUUUMMMME!!!!. Waitaminnit. What am I going to need all THIS for? Who's AFTER me??? This could potentially SUCK! Gotta find Yo-LAWND-aaHHH! I miss her terribly and love her more than life (Death, insufficiently-thoughtful-person) itself! SHE will know what to do! OHHHYo-LAWND-aahhhh! I MISS you SO! AND the boy! Ohhhh my SON! I can't remember your name but I KNOW you are my SON!! And I sense you are in DANGERRRR! From some dude I had business dealings with who wears a black SUIT! With his hallmark 'FORGET-ME-NOT' in the LAPEL!!!! OHHHHH my SON! HOW I MISS YOOUUUU!!!"

Look on the bright side:

No more having to eat
No more having to poop.
No more working from dawn to dusk with little to show for it
No more paying taxes.
No more waiting in lines at the DMV, Piggly Wiggly or the bank.

"YAH! But I miss my family! I miss my kid!"

Hell, dood! You are hanging around your house more NOW as a "haint" than you did when you were alive!

Really not seeing any downsides yet.

Go find yourselves a pretty "haint" chick. Stop pining after your corporeal love interest you can't have now without hijacking some poor saps body. There's nothing cool about that to begin with. Inhabiting some poor jerks body, seducing your still grieving widow in hopes she sees something that reminds her of you in the personality, deciding it's unethical AFTER coitus and ditch her, then dump her, (See? You still have human tendencies!) breaking her heart all over again and walking away sadly into a Hell-Mist. Leaving the guys body and the guy confused as Hell with PTSD for the rest of his life:

"Wh-wh-where AM I? Last thing I remember, I was in Toledo. WHY AM I IN NEW YORK CITY??? HALP! PLEASE! SOMEONE HALP!"

There's really NOTHING worse than a "haint" that's self centered, egomaniacal, narcissistic and sort of sorry-not-sorry for the way he acted in corporeal life and expects everyone to be fine with their body being "borrowed".

"S-St-Steve? I-I-is that...YOU?"

"OHHHH! Yo-LAWND-aaHHH! You- you-you can...SEE ME? The REAL ME? OHHHYo-LAWND-aahhhh! I have MISSED you SO!"

I could write comics, see? Throw me a lot of money and I'll produce a -----script.

He would have been better off just doing silent issues...terrible writer

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25 minutes ago, Jeffro. said:

Looking at all those 1940s, 50s, 60s, newsstand and drug store pictures, showing rows of what were at that time new comics, always makes me drool. Can you imagine seeing that as a 10 year old? 

I can only imagine. I had a lot less to look at in the mid-70's, but it still made me drool.

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5 minutes ago, Funnybooks said:

He would have been better off just doing silent issues...terrible writer

Yes. Just let me infer by lookin' at dah pitchers. Almost every Spawn book was like that. About halfway through the movie, I felt so much contempt for Spawn I shut it off.

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11 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

There was never a whinier undead "haint" than Spawn.

Spoiler

Deadman was pretty whiny at first too, though. I guess all "haints" go through that. Unable to accept they are dead. That they no longer have earthly concerns. That they now have powers and abilities I wish I had. And cooler clothes. And a massive arsenal. Although if I came back as a "haint", I would be a little concerned if I was "A DEMON REBORN" and had ALL THIS WEAPONRY at my immediate disposal:

"Hey. NEAT! A rifle that spurts HELL-FIRE!!! Demon grenades that have little demons in them that attack other mean demons FOR me! AWE-SUUUMMMME!!!!. Waitaminnit. What am I going to need all THIS for? Who's AFTER me??? This could potentially SUCK! Gotta find Yo-LAWND-aaHHH! I miss her terribly and love her more than life (Death, insufficiently-thoughtful-person) itself! SHE will know what to do! OHHHYo-LAWND-aahhhh! I MISS you SO! AND the boy! Ohhhh my SON! I can't remember your name but I KNOW you are my SON!! And I sense you are in DANGERRRR! From some dude I had business dealings with who wears a black SUIT! With his hallmark 'FORGET-ME-NOT' in the LAPEL!!!! OHHHHH my SON! HOW I MISS YOOUUUU!!!"

Look on the bright side:

No more having to eat
No more having to poop.
No more working from dawn to dusk with little to show for it
No more paying taxes.
No more waiting in lines at the DMV, Piggly Wiggly or the bank.

"YAH! But I miss my family! I miss my kid!"

Hell, dood! You are hanging around your house more NOW as a "haint" than you did when you were alive!

Really not seeing any downsides yet.

Go find yourselves a pretty "haint" chick. Stop pining after your corporeal love interest you can't have now without hijacking some poor saps body. There's nothing cool about that to begin with. Inhabiting some poor jerks body, seducing your still grieving widow in hopes she sees something that reminds her of you in the personality, deciding it's unethical AFTER coitus and ditch her, then dump her, (See? You still have human tendencies!) breaking her heart all over again and walking away sadly into a Hell-Mist. Leaving the guys body and the guy confused as Hell with PTSD for the rest of his life:

"Wh-wh-where AM I? Last thing I remember, I was in Toledo. WHY AM I IN NEW YORK CITY??? HALP! PLEASE! SOMEONE HALP!"

There's really NOTHING worse than a "haint" that's self centered, egomaniacal, narcissistic and sort of sorry-not-sorry for the way he acted in corporeal life and expects everyone to be fine with their body being "borrowed".

"S-St-Steve? I-I-is that...YOU?"

"OHHHH! Yo-LAWND-aaHHH! You- you-you can...SEE ME? The REAL ME? OHHHYo-LAWND-aahhhh! I have MISSED you SO!"

I could write comics, see? Throw me a lot of money and I'll produce a -----script.

 

I would never consider myself one to defend Todd's writing skills, and I do realize... that when content is reviewed by those with a limited capacity for understanding story elements OR who just have a limited exposure to story elements (i.e. growing up on video games, YouTube, social media, Ritalin use, etc.) they may just miss this but...

Al Simmons (was that his name? I'm going by memory here) was in real love with his wife. She and his daughter (?) were everything to him and... whereas being Spawn with all of that 'kewl' stuff is certainly appealing to the average teen who plays video games 20 hours a day - in a STORYTELLING sense, that gets old pretty quick, so... it helps to have an angle for the character that makes...

Oh, Nevermind.

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2 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

+100

As an example, just hearing people go on about 'Trimpe's terrible art' makes me wince. It's all subjective of course, BUT objectively, Marvel has resold those stories with his art for decades. That IS standing the test of time.

But as you said: "Better to focus on and get the most out of your own interpretation."

One of my common statements is how much I often prefer remastered digital artwork.  Trimpe's is a classic example for me.  A very solid, reliable, workmanlike artist, with a style from nearly 50 years ago, so, of course it'll look far from contemporary, and allowances have to be made for this.  However, in The Best of Wolverine hardcover, his remastered art for Hulk 181 actually presents really nicely.  It's good, simple, easy to follow, and for me, brighter and more dynamic than in the original, muddy newsprint.  A nice bit of synergism between old and new.

 

Edited by Ken Aldred
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