My experience with fractional ownership of comics: JIM #83 / $215,000 3 3

[manetteska]

16 minutes ago, valiantman said:

269 investors suckers, including me... CGC 9.4 Flash #105 - sold out in 5 minutes (five minutes ago) at $65,000

Call me crazy, but I think we're getting out of the "untouchable" category of comics.

Admittedly a 9.4 is nice, and I don't have all of the sales data, but a 7.0 sold a couple months ago for $5k. And a 9.0 for $24k in Feb 2019.

[valiantman]

5 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Call me crazy, but I think we're getting out of the "untouchable" category of comics.

Admittedly a 9.4 is nice, and I don't have all of the sales data, but a 7.0 sold a couple months ago for $5k. And a 9.0 for $24k in Feb 2019.

...and for $6.50, for about five minutes today, it was possible to buy 0.01% of a 9.4 Flash #105.  I don't have $5K to spend on Flash #105, but I have $6.50.

Edited January 13, 2021 by valiantman

[manetteska]

3 minutes ago, valiantman said:

...and for $6.50, it was possible to own 0.01% of a 9.4, for about five minutes today.  I don't have $5K to spend on Flash #105, but I have $6.50.

You can own a 3.5, right now for probably less than $1300.

Yes, a large sum for... some but partial ownership for $6.50? Getting a bit out of hand, but a great way for Vincent someone to "sell" static stock.

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, manetteska said:

7 minutes ago, valiantman said:

...and for $6.50, it was possible to own 0.01% of a 9.4, for about five minutes today.  I don't have $5K to spend on Flash #105, but I have $6.50.

You can own a 3.5, right now for probably less than $1300.

Yes, a large sum for... some but partial ownership for $6.50? Getting a bit out of hand, but a great way for Vincent someone to "sell" static stock.

Someone once said "buy what you like".  I like this. It's worth $6.50 to me. I don't know why that's offensive(?) to you. 

[ThothAmon]

16 minutes ago, valiantman said:

269 investors suckers, including me... CGC 9.4 Flash #105 - sold out in 5 minutes (five minutes ago) at $65,000

Good luck!  Definitely an idea with promise.  I’m hoping it leads to a further boon in prices. My biggest concern is the trustworthiness of those responsible for your investment. Wonder if you can do this as an ira?

[manetteska]

1 minute ago, valiantman said:

4 minutes ago, manetteska said:

10 minutes ago, valiantman said:

...and for $6.50, it was possible to own 0.01% of a 9.4, for about five minutes today.  I don't have $5K to spend on Flash #105, but I have $6.50.

You can own a 3.5, right now for probably less than $1300.

Yes, a large sum for... some but partial ownership for $6.50? Getting a bit out of hand, but a great way for Vincent someone to "sell" static stock.

Someone once said "buy what you like".  I like this. It's worth $6.50 to me. I don't know why that's offensive(?) to you. 

Not offended, just stating facts as the qualification for "unattainable" continues to spiral down.

Guess I'll start chopping up my ASM 300 and adding in 10% for "management" fees.

[valiantman]

5 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

Good luck!  Definitely an idea with promise.  I’m hoping it leads to a further boon in prices. My biggest concern is the trustworthiness of those responsible for your investment.

There's definitely a risk that the RallyRd guys aren't legit, but it's a risk worth taking for me... and I get that others wouldn't invest a dime in it.  That's fine, too.

Edited January 13, 2021 by valiantman

[valiantman]

2 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Not offended, just stating facts as the qualification for "unattainable" continues to spiral down.

Guess I'll start chopping up my ASM 300 and adding in 10% for "management" fees.

Sure, and if you find the investors... good for you.

CGC 9.4 Flash #105 is the highest grade known at this time, one of three copies on the CGC Census.  It's funny to me that some collectors want the highest possible grade they can afford, which doesn't go higher than CGC 9.4 for Flash #105 right now.  But owning just a tiny piece of it is foolish.  OK.

Edited January 13, 2021 by valiantman

[valiantman]

6 minutes ago, ThothAmon said:

Good luck!  Definitely an idea with promise.  I’m hoping it leads to a further boon in prices. My biggest concern is the trustworthiness of those responsible for your investment. Wonder if you can do this as an ira?

Let's say that someone puts together a collection of $5,000,000 worth of CGC graded comic books and sells "shares" in the whole collection... $5 each, 1,000,000 shares.

That's probably something people would think about - possibly want to invest $5 or $500... maybe even more than that.

But... they wouldn't have any control over which books are in the collection.  They'll have to rely on the collection manager to do all the picking.

RallyRd lets you pick each comic yourself, ignore some, go heavy on some, just one share of another... it's all up to you. Or don't take part in RallyRd at all.  That's an option, too. Those choices are more fun to me than the first idea of a $5,000,000 collection, even though having less choice would probably be more accepted in the industry.  Weird. 

[valiantman]

42 minutes ago, manetteska said:

Not offended, just stating facts as the qualification for "unattainable" continues to spiral down.

A couple of points...

Forget RallyRd for a minute.

Let's say you do have $10,000 to spend on comics.  Generally speaking, that's a high grade minor key... or a mid-grade key.  That's what you can get if you want one book.

At that point you have 100% of your money (this particular $10,000) in one book, one character, one key... however you want to look at it.

What if you would like to put $10,000 into comics of your favorite three characters?  Now you have to decide if you want a $5,000 book and two $2,500 books or $3,333 each or whatever.

Then you've got three books, most likely not the highest grade first appearances of those characters... just three solid four-figure books.

Now, you've decided that you'd really like to add a fourth character to your collection, using this same $10,000... what do you do?

You can sell one of your books and downgrade to a lower condition so you have extra money for the fourth character... but it's likely to be a lower condition copy as well.

Then, if you decide you'd rather go back to three characters and higher valued books, you'll have to sell the fourth and sell the third so that you can upgrade the third.

Now, what if you need to take $2,000 out for an expense? You're selling a book again.

What if you'd like to see $1,000 of your comic book investment moved over to Pokemon 1st Editions or Michael Jordan game-worn sneakers?  Ummm... this is getting complicated!

But...

What if you could just put $3,333 into shares of three different key issues for those three characters... perhaps even keys that are worth a lot more than $10,000 each.

When you decide to add a fourth character, you'd sell a few shares, maybe lower your holdings to $2,500 in each book and buy $2,500 worth of a fourth book.

Then when you want to go back to three characters, you'd sell your $2,500 worth of the fourth book and add shares back to the other three books.

You could also reduce your $10,000 to $8,000 and get $2,000 out pretty easily... while keeping the $8,000 in those comics.

You want $1,000 in Pokemon 1st Editions or Michael Jordan game-worn sneakers?  Just buy $1,000 worth of shares in those.

You'd do all this from your phone or computer.

 

All of that is not possible on RallyRd - that's why I said to forget RallyRd for a minute - but SOME of it is possible now.  Some of it is likely to be possible in the future, maybe at RallyRd, maybe somewhere else.  Perhaps all of it will be possible in the future.  If you don't like the idea, you won't be forced to do anything.  Same as CGC... if you hate slabs, you don't have to participate in the CGC market.  But someone (besides me) likes the ideas above... maybe lots of people like these ideas.

That's the actual idea.  If you want $500 worth of a CGC 9.8 Amazing Spider-Man #300, instead of a lower-grade CGC Amazing Spider-Man #300 for $500... ideally, you'd have both options.  There isn't a requirement that a book be "unattainable".  It just needs to be something that could be bought and sold partially and electronically, rather than the whole thing (with shipping) every time.

Edited January 13, 2021 by valiantman

[miraclemet]

In order to sell doesn't there have to be a buyer at the price you are selling? 

And as such, doesn't the relatively narrow audience for these type of ventures hurt it? 

[valiantman]

2 minutes ago, miraclemet said:

In order to sell doesn't there have to be a buyer at the price you are selling? 

And as such, doesn't the relatively narrow audience for these type of ventures hurt it? 

Yes - if there are literally just a couple hundred people on RallyRd, then when you're ready to sell, you have to hope that someone in those couple hundred wants your shares.  Otherwise you'll sell at a loss or not at all.

On the other hand, how many people are in the market for a CGC 9.4 Flash #105 at $65,000?  It's probably not a couple hundred, it's fewer... and the whole $65,000 is required to participate.

Unless you could just buy/sell a fraction.

[Funnybooks]

This hobby is about collecting/investing any way you see fit...if you're achieving satisfaction in the way you approach the hobby then more power to you. This thread will likely not change anyone's mind in the near term but it may be interesting to revisit this thread in a few years...

For those of us that are old enough to remember the Amazing Kreskin

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, manetteska said:

Yes, a large sum for... some but partial ownership for $6.50? Getting a bit out of hand, but a great way for Vincent someone to "sell" static stock.

I'm going to go "philosophical" for a minute, so feel free to skip this reply if you don't like market discussion with a side of philosophy. 

When we buy and sell comic books, we're buying and selling a whole comic book which represents a PART of a larger concept in the market.

Example: Buying and selling Hulk #181 is buying and selling a whole comic book which represents a PART of the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market.  The whole concept of "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market is all of the copies in existence, collectively... and no one owns the whole concept (all copies).

There are additional expenses and concerns when you buy/sell Hulk #181.  Packaging, shipping, security, storage, insurance, etc.

Knowing all those physical aspects of buying/selling Hulk #181, costs in money/time/effort and risks involved, people still buy/sell Hulk #181 as a whole comic because they want to own just a small part of the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market.  They own a whole comic, yes, but there are others, maybe higher grade, maybe not, but all of the books collectively make up the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" and the only way to own the whole concept would be to own every copy that exists.  We don't worry about owning every copy of Hulk #181 that exists... it's not a reasonable goal, and people are satisfied owning just one copy, even a low grade copy, that they are a participant in the market for the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" with their low-grade copy.  

Now, because we're buying and selling whole comic books which represent a part of the larger concept (1st appearance of some character, all copies in existence, collectively), we can further divide this concept two ways.  One, we can divide the comic book itself and split it up amongst more people... and indeed, there are CGC slabbed single pages from very valuable comic books. Two, we can divide the ownership of the comic book itself... leaving the book completely intact, but having more than one owner.  That's going to be a pain if everyone who owns any part of a comic book demands their "time" with the book, packaging, shipping, security, storage, insurance, etc., but let's leave the book where it is.  A vault somewhere, a collector you trust, a dealer's private inventory, a museum, whatever.  

This type of partial ownership would be "virtual" from the standpoint of holding the book in your hands, but that's the same as "virtual" ownership of a company when you own a share of stock. You don't get your own corner of the headquarters office building, you get nothing "physical"... but you own a part of a larger concept --- a company, which is made up of all outstanding shares of the company in existence.

If the ownership of a whole comic book represents owning a part of the larger concept (collectively, all copies in existence, the "1st Appearance of Wolverine"), then dividing that ownership further so that two people own a CGC 9.8 Hulk #181 isn't that hard to imagine, even if only one of them holds the book and takes care of security, storage, insurance, etc.  If it can be two owners, it can be 10.  It can be 100.  It can be 1,000.  We aren't re-inventing the wheel here... it's just the next logical step in partial ownership of the larger concept of all copies in existence, once the "whole comic book" requirement is removed but the "keep the book intact" requirement is added.  Otherwise, we'll just see people continue to slab single pages of books and I think that's much, much worse, philosophically.

What was a "static stock" item when you require one person to have $65,000 on their own becomes a "sells out in 5 minutes" item when you have a few hundred people willing to pay $6.50 a share, because "highest graded first issue of Flash" is a concept where many people are willing to pay $6.50 to own a small part, but maybe few would pay $65,000 to own one-third of that concept (since there are 3 in existence).  When there's more than one in existence, even owning the whole comic book doesn't give you 100% of the ownership in the concept itself... unless you own them all. Otherwise, everyone is really just a partial owner, even those who own a whole book.  Own all of them, or own a part of them... whether it's one-third or one-three-millionth.

Edited January 13, 2021 by valiantman

[theCapraAegagrus]

12 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I'm going to go "philosophical" for a minute, so feel free to skip this reply if you don't like market discussion with a side of philosophy. 

When we buy and sell comic books, we're buying and selling a whole comic book which represents a PART of a larger concept in the market.

Example: Buying and selling Hulk #181 is buying and selling a whole comic book which represents a PART of the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market.  The whole concept of "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market is all of the copies in existence, collectively... and no one owns the whole concept (all copies).

There are additional expenses and concerns when you buy/sell Hulk #181.  Packaging, shipping, security, storage, insurance, etc.

Knowing all those physical aspects of buying/selling Hulk #181, costs in money/time/effort and risks involved, people still buy/sell Hulk #181 as a whole comic because they want to own just a small part of the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market.  They own a whole comic, yes, but there are others, maybe higher grade, maybe not, but all of the books collectively make up the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" and the only way to own the whole concept would be to own every copy that exists.  We don't worry about owning every copy of Hulk #181 that exists... it's not a reasonable goal, and people are satisfied owning just one copy, even a low grade copy, that they are a participant in the market for the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" with their low-grade copy.  

Now, because we're buying and selling whole comic books which represent a part of the larger concept (1st appearance of some character, all copies in existence, collectively), we can further divide this concept two ways.  One, we can divide the comic book itself and split it up amongst more people... and indeed, there are CGC slabbed single pages from very valuable comic books. Two, we can divide the ownership of the comic book itself... leaving the book completely intact, but having more than one owner.  That's going to be a pain if everyone who owns any part of a comic book demands their "time" with the book, packaging, shipping, security, storage, insurance, etc., but let's leave the book where it is.  A vault somewhere, a collector you trust, a dealer's private inventory, a museum, whatever.  

This type of partial ownership would be "virtual" from the standpoint of holding the book in your hands, but that's the same as "virtual" ownership of a company when you own a share of stock. You don't get your own corner of the headquarters office building, you get nothing "physical"... but you own a part of a larger concept --- a company, which is made up of all outstanding shares of the company in existence.

If the ownership of a whole comic book represents owning a part of the larger concept (collectively, all copies in existence, the "1st Appearance of Wolverine"), then dividing that ownership further so that two people own a CGC 9.8 Hulk #181 isn't that hard to imagine, even if only one of them holds the book and takes care of security, storage, insurance, etc.  If it can be two owners, it can be 10.  It can be 100.  It can be 1,000.  We aren't re-inventing the wheel here... it's just the next logical step in partial ownership of the larger concept of all copies in existence, once the "whole comic book" requirement is removed but the "keep the book intact" requirement is added.  Otherwise, we'll just see people continue to slab single pages of books and I think that's much, much worse, philosophically.

What was a "static stock" item when you require one person to have $65,000 on their own becomes a "sells out in 5 minutes" item when you have a few hundred people willing to pay $6.50 a share, because "highest graded first issue of Flash" is a concept where many people are willing to pay $6.50 to own a small part, but maybe few would pay $65,000 to own one-third of that concept (since there are 3 in existence).  When there's more than one in existence, even owning the whole comic book doesn't give you 100% of the ownership in the concept itself... unless you own them all. Otherwise, everyone is really just a partial owner, even those who own a whole book.  Own all of them, or own a part of them... whether it's one-third or one-three-millionth.

What's the TL;DR?

[THE_BEYONDER]

11 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I'm going to go "philosophical" for a minute, so feel free to skip this reply if you don't like market discussion with a side of philosophy. 

When we buy and sell comic books, we're buying and selling a whole comic book which represents a PART of a larger concept in the market.

Example: Buying and selling Hulk #181 is buying and selling a whole comic book which represents a PART of the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market.  The whole concept of "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market is all of the copies in existence, collectively... and no one owns the whole concept (all copies).

There are additional expenses and concerns when you buy/sell Hulk #181.  Packaging, shipping, security, storage, insurance, etc.

Knowing all those physical aspects of buying/selling Hulk #181, costs in money/time/effort and risks involved, people still buy/sell Hulk #181 as a whole comic because they want to own just a small part of the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" in the market.  They own a whole comic, yes, but there are others, maybe higher grade, maybe not, but all of the books collectively make up the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" and the only way to own the whole concept would be to own every copy that exists.  We don't worry about owning every copy of Hulk #181 that exists... it's not a reasonable goal, and people are satisfied owning just one copy, even a low grade copy, that they are a participant in the market for the "1st Full Appearance of Wolverine" with their low-grade copy.  

Now, because we're buying and selling whole comic books which represent a part of the larger concept (1st appearance of some character, all copies in existence, collectively), we can further divide this concept two ways.  One, we can divide the comic book itself and split it up amongst more people... and indeed, there are CGC slabbed single pages from very valuable comic books. Two, we can divide the ownership of the comic book itself... leaving the book completely intact, but having more than one owner.  That's going to be a pain if everyone who owns any part of a comic book demands their "time" with the book, packaging, shipping, security, storage, insurance, etc., but let's leave the book where it is.  A vault somewhere, a collector you trust, a dealer's private inventory, a museum, whatever.  

This type of partial ownership would be "virtual" from the standpoint of holding the book in your hands, but that's the same as "virtual" ownership of a company when you own a share of stock. You don't get your own corner of the headquarters office building, you get nothing "physical"... but you own a part of a larger concept --- a company, which is made up of all outstanding shares of the company in existence.

If the ownership of a whole comic book represents owning a part of the larger concept (collectively, all copies in existence, the "1st Appearance of Wolverine"), then dividing that ownership further so that two people own a CGC 9.8 Hulk #181 isn't that hard to imagine, even if only one of them holds the book and takes care of security, storage, insurance, etc.  If it can be two owners, it can be 10.  It can be 100.  It can be 1,000.  We aren't re-inventing the wheel here... it's just the next logical step in partial ownership of the larger concept of all copies in existence, once the "whole comic book" requirement is removed but the "keep the book intact" requirement is added.  Otherwise, we'll just see people continue to slab single pages of books and I think that's much, much worse, philosophically.

What was a "static stock" item when you require one person to have $65,000 on their own becomes a "sells out in 5 minutes" item when you have a few hundred people willing to pay $6.50 a share, because "highest graded first issue of Flash" is a concept where many people are willing to pay $6.50 to own a small part, but maybe few would pay $65,000 to own one-third of that concept (since there are 3 in existence).  When there's more than one in existence, even owning the whole comic book doesn't give you 100% of the ownership... unless you own them all.  Otherwise, everyone is a partial owner, even those who own a whole book.

Hmmm....

So how does the OA to Hulk 181 come into play?  There can be no Hulk 181 comic if there was never any OA....

[F For Fake]

Can't believe you nerds are fighting about owning pieces of a comic, when you could be buying up PIECES OF THE MOON!

While you suckers are enjoying your paper scraps, I'll be frolicking in the Sea of Tranquility! Sayonara! I'm gonna be rich!

https://lunarland.com/

 

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Angel of Death said:

What's the TL;DR?

CGC 9.4 Flash #105 might be "static stock" (a book that doesn't sell for many months and sits in dealer inventory) when you're waiting for one person with $65,000, but it can "sell out in 5 minutes" when you have a few hundred people willing to pay $6.50 a share. The idea of "highest graded first issue of Flash" could have many people willing to pay $6.50 to own just a small part, but few who would pay $65,000 to own one-third (since there are 3 in existence).

[THE_BEYONDER]

Sea of Tranquility 

[theCapraAegagrus]

1 minute ago, valiantman said:

CGC 9.4 Flash #105 might be "static stock" (a book that doesn't sell for many months and sits in dealer inventory) when you're waiting for one person with $65,000, but it can "sell out in 5 minutes" when you have a few hundred people willing to pay $6.50 a share. The idea of "highest graded first issue of Flash" could have many people willing to pay $6.50 to own just a small part, but few who would pay $65,000 to own one-third (since there are 3 in existence).

I regret asking.