Is Batman 227 the next Incredible Hulk 181? 0

[Brian48]

Quote

•  Is Batman 227 the next Incredible Hulk 181?

No.

[the blob]

On 1/27/2021 at 10:36 PM, Randall Ries said:

No of course not. Whenever a bronze age book suddenly gets carried away with itself, I start a thread called "Is xxx#xxx the next Incredible Hulk 181?" Like Bat 251, for example. And now 227.

The comparison needs to be to a book that is a big deal because of the cover and not the story. While there are some pre-code horror books that are really expensive because of the awesome cover and not so much the story, I am not sure what in the SA would qualify.  So we are really talking about Batman 227 and 251, None of the superman iconic covers or archie innuendo covers are in that stratesphere and i can't think of any Marvel BA books that are insanely expensive because of the cover. Gil Kane seemingly did half the covers of Marvel's BA and nobody is getting that excited about them.

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, the blob said:

The comparison needs to be to a book that is a big deal because of the cover and not the story. While there are some pre-code horror books that are really expensive because of the awesome cover and not so much the story, I am not sure what in the SA would qualify.  So we are really talking about Batman 227 and 251, None of the superman iconic covers or archie innuendo covers are in that stratesphere and i can't think of any Marvel BA books that are insanely expensive because of the cover. Gil Kane seemingly did half the covers of Marvel's BA and nobody is getting that excited about them.

I think we HAVE to include Neal Adams as the force majeure here. He has more iconic and instantly recognizable covers than any artist I can think of in any of the 5 ages. Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper and Modern. He was the first artist since Frazetta to put some realism behind the art. We were looking at Curt Swan, Murphy Anderson and Carmine Infantino c/a for a long time. Suddenly, Neal Adams comes out of left field and starts doing Deadman in "Strange Adventures" then Detective 395. Then a whole bunch more. Redefined Batman in 1969 the way Miller had to redefine Batman again in 1986. Then introduced us to Green Lantern/Green Arrow 76-89. Denny O'Neil got Speedy strung out on heroin. Reading that as a ten year old kid, I was like "What the HELL, MAN???"

There was a reason DC used him for a lot of their covers. His covers sold comic books. There are a lot of Batman issues where he did the covers and not the interiors and those books are starting to get pricey as well. But 227 was a masterpiece and he was only trying to cop Detective 31. He would probably say "Aw. 'Twarn't nothin'" like he did with Superman 233. But it WAS something. Superman 233 was a riff on the golden age Superman 11 issue. The cover of 227 is unremarkable for Neal Adams save the looming Batman figure over the castle. A hanging panels cover.  A black cover which is a rhymes with witch to find in nice shape.

Incredible Hulk 181 is an unremarkable book both in cover and interior art and for Len Wein the story sucks. But it is the "first" full appearance of Wolverine. To me, it's remarkable when a cover ALONE challenges Incredible Hulk 181 as a runner up to the crown. Batman 227 is arguably harder to find in awesome shape (9.4-9.8). What is there? 9 Batman 227 9.8's? How many 9.8 Incredible Hulks are there? 126!!! There are 12 Signature series IH 181 in 9.8! More than the total population of Batman 227 in 9.8! I can't swing a dead cat without hitting an IH 181. To me, IH 181 is unremarkable across the board save the first appearance thingy and even that's tiresome. There have been MUCH better IH covers and stories. But Batman 227 is sought only for the cover. I can't think of another book that is collected mainly for its cover. Batman 251 is but it has that glaring flaw. And the story is good.

I think more and more collectors are going to start looking at Adams Bat covers w/o him necessarily doing the interior art and realize that a lot of those are pretty nice. Like the Detective gladiator cover or the horse drawn hearse cover.

[jbud73]

While I am a big fan of Batman 227, its apples and oranges to compare it to the first appearance of the most popular character in the Marvel Universe [along side Spider-Man].  That said Batman 227 is one of the best covers in the Bronze Age.  I can't remember where it sat on the BA Covers of all time forum poll from 12 or so years ago, might have been #1, it was in the top 3.  Its also harder to find in high grade as the census will show.

Still this sale is an outlier for sure and I can almost guarantee the next 9.8 doesnt hit 25K.

[the blob]

15 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

I think we HAVE to include Neal Adams as the force majeure here. He has more iconic and instantly recognizable covers than any artist I can think of in any of the 5 ages. Gold, Silver, Bronze, Copper and Modern. He was the first artist since Frazetta to put some realism behind the art. We were looking at Curt Swan, Murphy Anderson and Carmine Infantino c/a for a long time. Suddenly, Neal Adams comes out of left field and starts doing Deadman in "Strange Adventures" then Detective 395. Then a whole bunch more. Redefined Batman in 1969 the way Miller had to redefine Batman again in 1986. Then introduced us to Green Lantern/Green Arrow 76-89. Denny O'Neil got Speedy strung out on heroin. Reading that as a ten year old kid, I was like "What the HELL, MAN???"

There was a reason DC used him for a lot of their covers. His covers sold comic books. There are a lot of Batman issues where he did the covers and not the interiors and those books are starting to get pricey as well. But 227 was a masterpiece and he was only trying to cop Detective 31. He would probably say "Aw. 'Twarn't nothin'" like he did with Superman 233. But it WAS something. Superman 233 was a riff on the golden age Superman 11 issue. The cover of 227 is unremarkable for Neal Adams save the looming Batman figure over the castle. A hanging panels cover.  A black cover which is a rhymes with witch to find in nice shape.

Incredible Hulk 181 is an unremarkable book both in cover and interior art and for Len Wein the story sucks. But it is the "first" full appearance of Wolverine. To me, it's remarkable when a cover ALONE challenges Incredible Hulk 181 as a runner up to the crown. Batman 227 is arguably harder to find in awesome shape (9.4-9.8). What is there? 9 Batman 227 9.8's? How many 9.8 Incredible Hulks are there? 126!!! There are 12 Signature series IH 181 in 9.8! More than the total population of Batman 227 in 9.8! I can't swing a dead cat without hitting an IH 181. To me, IH 181 is unremarkable across the board save the first appearance thingy and even that's tiresome. There have been MUCH better IH covers and stories. But Batman 227 is sought only for the cover. I can't think of another book that is collected mainly for its cover. Batman 251 is but it has that glaring flaw. And the story is good.

I think more and more collectors are going to start looking at Adams Bat covers w/o him necessarily doing the interior art and realize that a lot of those are pretty nice. Like the Detective gladiator cover or the horse drawn hearse cover.

227 is not "challenging" 181 at all. It is super expensive because there are 9 in the census and has an iconic cool cover. If there were 126 in the census like 181, it would be a small fraction. The proof is a cgc 8.0 181 goes for $4500-5000 whereas an 8.0 227 does not crack $900. indeed, for $900 you could have gotten a SS Adam 8.0 last week. so you get a freak outlier sale on a 9.8 that rarely comes up. probably some tech guy with too much money from some stock valuation. I am curious, what does batman 226 cgc 9.8 go for? even fewer in census, but a ho hum Adams cover.

[Randall Ries]

35 minutes ago, the blob said:

227 is not "challenging" 181 at all. It is super expensive because there are 9 in the census and has an iconic cool cover. If there were 126 in the census like 181, it would be a small fraction. The proof is a cgc 8.0 181 goes for $4500-5000 whereas an 8.0 227 does not crack $900. indeed, for $900 you could have gotten a SS Adam 8.0 last week. so you get a freak outlier sale on a 9.8 that rarely comes up. probably some tech guy with too much money from some stock valuation. I am curious, what does batman 226 cgc 9.8 go for? even fewer in census, but a ho hum Adams cover.

Yes. You know, when I say "challenging" or "the next IH 181", it's tongue in cheek. IH 181 is out of control. Everyone wants one. There are tons of issues around. Not even rare in the least. I have zero desire for an IH 181. Just don't care. In my last thread "Is Batman 251 the next IH 181", we talked about the sudden jump in value that book enjoyed. In a relatively short period of time. So, I am always wondering when the next book will pop that will "challenge" IH 181. I think it's fun and lets me run my yammer. LOL!

Coincidentally, I DID pick up an 8.0 Bat 227 the week before the 9.8 saw a $31K hammer price. And at $50 less than the price you quoted. It's not a book to be without if one is a Neal Adams or Batman fan. I traded my 9.4 to Nearmint and now I want to start burning myself again with cigarette lighters. Other dealers - like Metro - bumped their high grade 227's up the day after the 9.8 sale. Metro went from $9k to $30k. Ridiculous.

[the blob]

51 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

Yes. You know, when I say "challenging" or "the next IH 181", it's tongue in cheek. IH 181 is out of control. Everyone wants one. There are tons of issues around. Not even rare in the least. I have zero desire for an IH 181. Just don't care. In my last thread "Is Batman 251 the next IH 181", we talked about the sudden jump in value that book enjoyed. In a relatively short period of time. So, I am always wondering when the next book will pop that will "challenge" IH 181. I think it's fun and lets me run my yammer. LOL!

Coincidentally, I DID pick up an 8.0 Bat 227 the week before the 9.8 saw a $31K hammer price. And at $50 less than the price you quoted. It's not a book to be without if one is a Neal Adams or Batman fan. I traded my 9.4 to Nearmint and now I want to start burning myself again with cigarette lighters. Other dealers - like Metro - bumped their high grade 227's up the day after the 9.8 sale. Metro went from $9k to $30k. Ridiculous.

I sold my VG/Finesh copy the moment it got hot a few years ago. I can't remember, somewhere in the $75-100 range, which is not bad at all compared to so many other books I sold a bit too early on. It was no $7.99 NYX 3 sale or $7 (or maybe $13, I forget) for TOS 57 or $10 for Ultimate Fallout 4.

[Randall Ries]

33 minutes ago, the blob said:

I sold my VG/Finesh copy the moment it got hot a few years ago. I can't remember, somewhere in the $75-100 range, which is not bad at all compared to so many other books I sold a bit too early on. It was no $7.99 NYX 3 sale or $7 (or maybe $13, I forget) for TOS 57 or $10 for Ultimate Fallout 4.

I know what you mean. I have slowly learned not to trade off or sell key books. Especially the high grade examples. Even the wonky ones like Bat 227. I love the books and money is a secondary concern. I mean, money should be a concern in the future. Right now I should be enjoying having the things. The one thing I don't like about the hobby is the Wall Street aspect of it. It's nice they have a monetary value but it seems like that is taking precedence over the joy of ownership. IH 181 should not be in the position it is in right now. It's WAY overvalued.

Here's an interesting article about spending foolish money on an unknown.

https://www.theguardian.com/music/2021/feb/03/record-by-near-unknown-producer-sells-for-41000-most-expensive-discogs-scaramanga-silk
 

[Brian48]

Time to resurrect the old Bats 227 thread!

Is Batman 227 the "key" Neal Adams Batman book to have? - Bronze Age Comic Books - CGC Comic Book Collectors Chat Boards (cgccomics.com)

 

[the blob]

21 minutes ago, Brian48 said:

Time to resurrect the old Bats 227 thread!

Is Batman 227 the "key" Neal Adams Batman book to have? - Bronze Age Comic Books - CGC Comic Book Collectors Chat Boards (cgccomics.com)

 

It sure seems 232 is a more relevant book, but much more common in high grade, and if you're going for great cover, why not have joker in it (251)?

[grebal]

On 2/2/2021 at 8:29 PM, Randall Ries said:

I think more and more collectors are going to start looking at Adams Bat covers w/o him necessarily doing the interior art and realize that a lot of those are pretty nice. Like the Detective gladiator cover or the horse drawn hearse cover.

I don't even collect many DCs, though I have some things like Deadman's run in Strange Adventures and Wrightson's first ten issues of Swamp Thing.

But I got these:

and this sub-fold marred item that pleases me anyway.

[Savoyard23]

I got my mid-grade Batman 227 (and 232) from an LCS in the $15-20 range in the early or mid-2000s, and I'm so, so, so glad I did.

I love owning these books and I wouldn't pay the prices for them today.

Still need a 234, though.  :-/  And a 237, which also seems to be climbing up there.

I got my 251 at a convention as a kid, and it's really beat to hell, but I'm in the club.  I'll upgrade after the big crash happens.  

[Randall Ries]

5 hours ago, Savoyard23 said:

I got my mid-grade Batman 227 (and 232) from an LCS in the $15-20 range in the early or mid-2000s, and I'm so, so, so glad I did.

I love owning these books and I wouldn't pay the prices for them today.

Still need a 234, though.  :-/  And a 237, which also seems to be climbing up there.

I got my 251 at a convention as a kid, and it's really beat to hell, but I'm in the club.  I'll upgrade after the big crash happens.  

I don't see a big crash happening with Bat 251. Not unless Jared Leto REALLY messes up the Joker. And Leto is screwy enough to do it. 234 is undervalued, I think. And CGC needs to change the label to say "1st Bronze Age Appearance Of Two Face." 237 is REALLY undervalued and quite affordable in mid-high grade. Story took place 25 miles from where I live. Pretty neat.

[lou_fine]

On 1/26/2021 at 6:05 PM, jbud73 said:

Batman 227 has been on collecting radar for quite a while due to the Cover swipe.

Well, since it's really nothing more than a cover swipe or homage cover as stated on the CGC label, why not go after the original itself if you are willing to dish out that kind of dough for a book:    

Then again, maybe not considering that even an entry level copy like the above CGC 1.0 graded copy will still cost you a pretty penny as it sold for something like $44K back a few years ago.  

Edited February 8, 2021 by lou_fine

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

234 is undervalued, I think. And CGC needs to change the label to say "1st Bronze Age Appearance Of Two Face." 237 is REALLY undervalued and quite affordable in mid-high grade.

Yes, in full agreement with you that considering how the red hot Bat trio of Bat 227, 232,and 251 have shot up the pricing hit parade like a bullet during the past few years, I would definitely lean more in the direction of Bat 234 and 237 and pick these two books up before their prices also go through the roof.    

[Randall Ries]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, in full agreement with you that considering how the red hot Bat trio of Bat 227, 232,and 251 have shot up the pricing hit parade like a bullet during the past few years, I would definitely lean more in the direction of Bat 234 and 237 and pick these two books up before their prices also go through the roof.    

Locked and loaded. Such a great cover.

Edited February 8, 2021 by Randall Ries

[Randall Ries]

This rad cover isn't too shabby either. Another black cover hard to find without hatchet marks up and down the spine. Basically part two of the story from Bat 232. Although 242 has Bruce Wayne missing so Bats can move around a little.

[Randall Ries]

2 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Well, since it's really nothing more than a cover swipe or homage cover as stated on the CGC label, why not go after the original itself if you are willing to dish out that kind of dough for a book:    

Then again, maybe not considering that even an entry level copy like the above CGC 1.0 graded copy will still cost you a pretty penny as it sold for something like $44K back a few years ago.  

The date stamps alone make it worth the sheks.

[Savoyard23]

12 hours ago, Randall Ries said:

I don't see a big crash happening with Bat 251. Not unless Jared Leto REALLY messes up the Joker. And Leto is screwy enough to do it. 234 is undervalued, I think. And CGC needs to change the label to say "1st Bronze Age Appearance Of Two Face." 237 is REALLY undervalued and quite affordable in mid-high grade. Story took place 25 miles from where I live. Pretty neat.

Yeah, I was being a little tongue-in-cheek there.  It seems like the comic price bubble just can't inflate forever, but it also seems like we've been saying that for the last 15 years.

I've lived through one crash so I know it can happen.  I came back to collecting after the 90s to find some books that were 'up there' available for a few bucks again.  DCCP 26 and NTT 2 come to mind off the top of my head.  Of course, they've taken off again.

I guess it happened once, it could happen again.  But I'm not confident enough to short Neal Adams Batmans.

[Savoyard23]

11 hours ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, in full agreement with you that considering how the red hot Bat trio of Bat 227, 232,and 251 have shot up the pricing hit parade like a bullet during the past few years, I would definitely lean more in the direction of Bat 234 and 237 and pick these two books up before their prices also go through the roof.    

  Just might bump those up in the queue.  Would be really nice to finish the BA Batman run.