Comics as an investment for retirement 2 2

[Artboy99]

14 minutes ago, KPR Comics said:

No idea.  But, investing in an index fund takes no thought, can be done in small increments and bears little risk over the long term.   

devils advocate: one could say the same about an AF15 purchase.

a cgc 5.0 purchased for $16000 inn 2010 then sold for $57000 10 years later is amazing return

Edited January 23, 2021 by Artboy99

[William-James88]

2 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

devils advocate: one could say the same about an AF15 purchase.

Not sure about the small increments aspect 

[KPR Comics]

4 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

devils advocate: one could say the same about an AF15 purchase.

How do you invest small increments?  

Also, there's the immediate tax shelter benefit of the 401K.  

[shadroch]

8 minutes ago, KPR Comics said:

No idea.  But, investing in an index fund takes no thought, can be done in small increments and bears little risk over the long term.   

Factor in taxes and inflation and where are you?   Any fees involved?  Don't get me wrong, if you are going to only invest in one or the other, I'll recommend stocks every time, but why is it an either or?  

[Mr.Fantastic]

6 minutes ago, Artboy99 said:

devils advocate: one could say the same about an AF15 purchase.

Another reason I like comics as an investment.  They seem to zig when the stock market zags.  In other words when the market was down during the recession from 2007-2009 comic vales held up and performed rather well.  Seems to be the same with most tangible assets.

[Artboy99]

6 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

Not sure about the small increments aspect 

save money up then purchase

[KPR Comics]

4 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Factor in taxes and inflation and where are you?   Any fees involved?  Don't get me wrong, if you are going to only invest in one or the other, I'll recommend stocks every time, but why is it an either or?  

Agreed, not an either/or.  Definitely a fun way to invest and have as part of your overall portfolio.  My point is that picking one book (like AF 15) and suggesting that comics generally are a better investment is a bit misguided.  

[Mr.Fantastic]

Just now, KPR Comics said:

Agreed, not an either/or.  Definitely a fun way to invest and have as part of your overall portfolio.  My point is that picking one book (like AF 15) and suggesting that comics generally are a better investment is a bit misguided.  

In comparison, picking AF15 is like owning Tesla and or Amazon the last few years.  There are a few assets whether they be stocks or comics that will appreciate at a greater rate than the overall market.  However, I feel if you pick an overall portfolio consisting of golden age books that have held their value relatively well over time, and mix them in with a few silver age keys for appreciation, then you will have an overall comic portfolio that resembles a balanced loan/bond portfolio.

[Artboy99]

5 minutes ago, KPR Comics said:

Agreed, not an either/or.  Definitely a fun way to invest and have as part of your overall portfolio.  My point is that picking one book (like AF 15) and suggesting that comics generally are a better investment is a bit misguided.  

definitely agreed, but the return on sale after buy and hold is appealing.

[shadroch]

2 minutes ago, Mr.Fantastic said:

In comparison, picking AF15 is like owning Tesla and or Amazon the last few years.  There are a few assets whether they be stocks or comics that will appreciate at a greater rate than the overall market.  However, I feel if you pick an overall portfolio consisting of golden age books that have held their value relatively well over time, and mix them in with a few silver age keys for appreciation, then you will have an overall comic portfolio that resembles a balanced loan/bond portfolio.

Why would you want a comic portfolio that resembles a loan/bond portfolio? 

Why buy anything that you think will hold it's value? 

[Mr.Fantastic]

2 minutes ago, shadroch said:

Why would you want a comic portfolio that resembles a loan/bond portfolio? 

Why buy anything that you think will hold it's value? 

It was just a comparison. I think the GA books have less risk of going down (at least materially) and therefore I compared them to a safer asset.  But, I also believe that the GA books may be the ones over the next 10-15 years that increase more in value as they become harder to find than the SA counterparts. But, I also think there is some room to run during the next 10-15 years for some SA keys as collectors find the brands represented by them become even more of household names.

[comicginger1789]

I love comics so for me, investing in them is hard. Why? Well if I were to splurge on a book likely to go up, I would have a hard time selling it because I would think it’s so cool to have it in the first place. I don’t treat the hobby that way so it’s hard for me, even though there are plenty of books that I could buy that I wouldn’t care much about (ex. Many older DC keys)

But I also don’t like gambling like that. It’s likely I’d be fine, knowing what I know, but the sheer fact that I would be buying comics as investment takes me to an area of the hobby I don’t want to worry about. I’m happy buying and selling to support the books I like, reading them and continuing to diversify my collection. And hey, it stands to reason when I’m done doing it in this way, that I’ll still be able to profit down the road if selling has to happen.

[Glassman10]

1 hour ago, Artboy99 said:

sure, but what is the return on an AF15 over the same time period?

It's been flat to down for a 5.0 since I sold mine four years ago. I did get a great price but it strikes me as still down.

Golden books are an odd animal. Lots don't go up at all. If one thing seems to rise, for now, it's Marvel Silver age conditions of 7.0 and better do nicely. That could stop too. They don't offer the liquidity that stocks do. 

Edited January 23, 2021 by Glassman10

[namisgr]

For US comic collectors, the federal tax liability on collectibles gain is 28%.  In contrast, if you make under $400,000 in income in a year the tax liability on a long-term (>12 month) equity gain is 15%.

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, Artboy99 said:

save money up then purchase

I'm not sure that'll work Karl.  Book could go up faster than the money you save to buy it.

[Mr.Fantastic]

51 minutes ago, namisgr said:

For US comic collectors, the federal tax liability on collectibles gain is 28%.  In contrast, if you make under $400,000 in income in a year the tax liability on a long-term (>12 month) equity gain is 15%.

How is this tracked though? Are you speaking of collectors who actually make a living selling comics vs someone else that would just be selling them?

[William-James88]

1 hour ago, Artboy99 said:

save money up then purchase

I dont think saving 50$ a month can get you an AF15 anytime soon. But it can go into a mutual fund. So yeah, on that aspect you cant do the same with both.

[shadroch]

1 hour ago, namisgr said:

For US comic collectors, the federal tax liability on collectibles gain is 28%.  In contrast, if you make under $400,000 in income in a year the tax liability on a long-term (>12 month) equity gain is 15%.

Show enough income and you may end up owing medicare taxes of 3% on top of the 28% for a 31% tax shavings.

Show low enough income and churn your books annually and your tax rate will be 15%

Turn your hobby into a business and the first $25,000 income can be a business deduction, although you want to consult with a paid advisor on how to do that.

I don't fully grasp this but you tax situation can vary depending on if you stored the book or displayed it. Ask your tax professionals. 

Using a tax pro doesn't cost you money. It saves you money.

[Artboy99]

42 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

I'm not sure that'll work Karl.  Book could go up faster than the money you save to buy it.

absolutely correct! Even investing in the S&P index doesnt keep up.

[the blob]

2 hours ago, KPR Comics said:

S&P annual return 2010-2020 is 13.6%.  Just sayin.

Does that include dividend reinvestment?  Also, 2000-2010 was basically a lost decade for stock returns with 2 or 3 major crashes. So, it can go either way.

 

Also, equities have more favorable tax treatment than collectibles. You can't put them in an IRA/401K as well (or doing that would require you to set up a corporate structure to hold them as assetsd..complicated). Not to mention liquidity/higher transactional costs.

I would not want to say "no," because, frankly, if you bought the right books throughout the 80s and 90s you would have done very well and even some books more recently. The genuine bluechip stuff has done well. But some secondary keys.. not as well. But are you going to see these go up 400-600% in the next 15 years? I dunno. Some have over the last 15 for sure. But that is what a 13.6% annual return means (actually, it means that if you have $1000 it is $6771 at the end of 15 years). How many $5000 books today do you think will be $30,000 books in 15 years? (Or $1000 into $6771..) Of course, why would we think stocks will do as well from 2021-2035 as they did from 2010-20?

But yeah, you definitely could have seen some of these returns over the last 15 years.

So the answer is...we'll find out