Are there really lots of new collectors, and do they care about the older stuff? 1 1

[babsrocks31]

I have a different question, before I answer the OP's:

How many older collectors are collecting newer artists?

    There are plenty of newer artists struggling to make decent money in the business, and I doubt any of them will ever be able to sell their work anywhere to close to the highs of the legends, even those from fifteen years ago. Many of these artists do great work, but are not with Marvel or DC. Comics grew so much in the nineties, there are so many other companies and independent creators now.

   Does anyone care about pages or commissions from people who likely have the chops to work with the big two, but are stuck with Dynamite or IDW, or even Image right now? It is likely that these artists will never, ever be able to sell a page for even 1k, and you could probably get a page from most of them right now for a crisp 100. Keeping the hobby alive actually depends less on if yet another person hops in line to pay 500usd for a head sketch by Adam Hughes or to bid 3k for a page by Kelly Jones. It depends a lot more on if anyone supports working artists actually working in comics today on a consistent, regular basis.

The greats of the past can't draw forever, but somebody like Alvaro Martinez or Amancay Nahuelapan, or Daniel Sampere might draw for another 40 years if the interest is there.

Answering for myself, I am a newer collector. I grew up with comics in the nineties, but I also have exposure to 80's comics and of course, some from the 2000s through to today. I don't have much interest in art from the 70's and older, and I couldn't afford it if I did. I mostly collect from newer artists, but I am a fan of some pieces from the eighties and nineties, and some silver or golden aged comics. I just can't afford to spend a grand or more on one piece of art. I have student debt, cost of living is insane, etc. A one bedroom condo in my city is at least 400k... I just started saving to make a decent down payment. I can afford to buy a couple pieces of art for 2 or 3 hundred a year, but not to bid on something worth 10k or nearly a quarter of my yearly salary.

Collecting comics and comic Art is a hobby for me, and I love it dearly, but I couldn't care about older art even if I wanted to... It's priced beyond what most of myself and my peers could afford (I am 30 and in Canada, btw).

And to be clear, I think 'older' art is often inspiring, amazing, and timeless... But to keep the hobby healthy I believe we need to spend just a bit more energy (and money) looking forward not backward.

 

Edited February 10, 2021 by babsrocks31
Typos fixed

[Rick2you2]

1 hour ago, babsrocks31 said:

I have a different question, before I answer the OP's:

How many older collectors are collecting newer artists?

   There are plenty of new artists struggling to make decent in the business, and I doubt any of them will ever be able to sell their work anywhere to close to the highs of the legends, even those from twenty years ago. Many of these artists do great work, but are not with Marvel or DC. Comics grew so much in the nineties, there are so many other companies and independent creators now. Does anyone care about pages or commissions from people who likely have the chops to work with the big two, but are stuck with Dynamite or Zenescope, or even Image right now? It is likely that these artists will never, ever be able to sell a page for even 1k, and you could probably get a page from most of them right now for an even 100. Keeping the hobby alive actually depends less on if yet another person hops in line to pay 500usd for a head sketch by Adam Hughes or Jack Kirby, and a lot more on if anyone supports working artists today. The greats of the past can't draw forever, but somebody like Alvaro Martinez or Amancay Nahuelapan, or Dave Acosta might draw for another 40 years if the interest is there.

Answering for myself, I am a newer collector. I grew up with comics in the nineties, but I also have exposure to 80's comics and of course, some from the 2000s through to today. I don't have much interest in art from the 70's and older, and I couldn't afford it if I did. I mostly collect from newer artists, but I am a fan of some pieces from the eighties and nineties. I just can't afford to spend a grand or more on one piece of art. I have student debt, cost of living is insane, etc. A one bedroom condo in my city is at least 400k... I just started saving to make a decent down payment. I can afford to buy a couple pieces for 100 - 400 a year, but not to bid on something worth 10k or nearly a quarter of my yearly salary.

Collecting comics and comic Art is a hobby for me, and I love it dearly, but I couldn't care about older art even if I wanted to... It's priced beyond what most of myself and my peers could afford (I am 30 and in Canada, btw).

And to be clear, I think 'older' art is often inspiring, amazing, and timeless... But to keep the hobby healthy I believe we need to spend just a bit more energy looking forward not backward.

 

I buy the newer stuff, but, I collect to the character and don’t usually get commissioned work. Frankly, I think a lot of the newer stuff is at least as good, both in terms of illustration skill and design approach. But, I’ve basically said this before on this thread. Let me add, that I don’t think a lot of older art “is inspiring, amazing, and timeless...” It is old, sometimes stiff, and designed to illustrate a -script instead of moving the story. That is the antithesis of timeless. For every Will Eisner there are dozens of Curt Swan’s or Richard Dillin’s.

Edited February 10, 2021 by Rick2you2

[Aahz]

I've been a collector since the early 90's.  I hope this is not wishful thinking, but I think the market will remain strong.  Why?

1) There are still a lot of outlets for comic books, even if it isn't through the traditional comic book store.  Trade paperbacks and resales on amazon and places like half price books continue to push product out.  Also, school have actually added graphic novels and manga to their libraries.  It might not be Conan, but the sequential art form is not discouraged or looked down on as it was before.

2)  There is a lot of great story material in those books.  The fact that Hollywood has been unable or unwilling to convert these to shows or movies over the years (because of special effects, cost, etc) does not mean that they won't on an increased basis now that Amazon, Hulu, and Netflix are funding their own productions ... you need content.  The success of Disney/Marvel is spurring this on.  Will this go back to the Golden Age War and Western stories, unknown, but new content is always needed.

3) Even though it already exists, there is the international market.  Europe has a long and strong tradition of sequential art, even if it is different than the US tradition.  Go outside the US, and everyone knows, Bugs Bunny, Scooby, Doo and Spider Man.  That interest can only grow.

4) If you enjoy comic books or any of this "pop" media, OA is a one of a kind piece that you won't get from buying a movie poster or a comic book etc.  It's a rush for most people to own a one of a kind item.  Does that mean they will convert into a collector, maybe not, but the piece will be out of circulation.

In terms of collecting, I have expanded way beyond nostalgia and get stuff that grabs my fancy ... new and old.

[vodou]

2 minutes ago, Heidjer Staecker said:

I hope this is not wishful thinking, but...

It is. Nothing goes up forever. Nothing. Especially empires.

[babsrocks31]

25 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I buy the newer stuff, but, I collect to the character and don’t usually get commissioned work. Frankly, I think a lot of the newer stuff is at least as good, both in terms of illustration skill and design approach. But, I’ve basically said this before on this thread. Let me add, that I don’t think a lot of older art “is inspiring, amazing, and timeless...” It is old, sometimes stiff, and designed to illustrate a --script instead of moving the story. That is the antithesis of timeless. For every Will Eisner there are dozens of Curt Swan’s or Richard Dillion’s. 

Oh yes, don't get me wrong. A lot of older art is fantastic and was highly influential, but a lot of it is rigid and simplistic, too.

 

 

 

[Aahz]

53 minutes ago, vodou said:

It is. Nothing goes up forever. Nothing. Especially empires.

No it can't all go up constantly, but the market can remain strong.  There will be stratification.

[vodou]

36 minutes ago, Heidjer Staecker said:

There will be stratification.

Sure. Prepare for the coming Chinese lift stratification. The West is on life support. Don't miss the forest for the trees  

[Varanis]

I'm probably one of the youngest collectors on the boards. Here's my perspective for whatever it's worth:

1) I think there are a ton of new collectors coming into the hobby. I definitely don't have the data, but based on Felix's success and anecdotal conversations, it certainly feels like the hobby is getting younger. I personally got into the hobby indirectly from the movies and I imagine many other have and will as well. I think there's the chance for enormous market movement if OA gets the right exposure. See Pokemon cards as an example...

2) Good art is good art. I collect mostly modern art, but Jack Kirby, Moebius, and other masters are on my long term must have list. Much of the best old art transcends generations and nostalgia. In an era where access to any age of media is nearly limitless, newer collectors are often raised knowing the influence of an artist like Jack Kirby. I mostly collect modern art due to quality for price. I can sometimes spend low 5 figures. With that capital I can get some of the best work modern art has to offer. I can't touch a lackluster bronze age cover for that price. I want a Kirby, but I don't want any Kirby. I could spend $2000+ to own an ok Kirby panel page or I could spend that same money to buy an incredible cover from a modern book. As much as I love Kirby, that isn't really a decision. I need more buying power to get the right Kirby piece. Even at low 5 figures, the right Kirby page can be tough to find - and at that number the comparison is a modern grail. I think it's a fallacy to assume newer collectors don't appreciate older art when the buy-in for that art comes at such a huge multiplier.

3) There's an enormous discrepancy between price and quality when comparing modern art and older art. I assume it's largely driven by nostalgia. I think that gap could narrow over time as quality of art drives newer collectors more than nostalgia. I think the movies are creating nostalgia for newer stories as well. Ribic Thor, Granov Iron Man, and many others speak exactly the language of the films and will likely resonate for years with collectors. 

3) I think we're going to continue to see an increased emphasis on "key" pages as well as comic collectors move into the market. I expect more granularity to emerge as to what is "key" as well. Just look at the comic market to see how much folks obsess over true-firsts, cameos and other nuances.

4) Get ready for monoprints and blockchain art to be much more of a thing. Collectibles evolve, and those are likely the next steps for art as more artists work digitally and younger collectors look for more affordable buy-ins.

[PhilipB2k17]

14 hours ago, Hockeyflow33 said:

Don't discount how many dealers and re-sellers are out there with dozens or hundreds of pages that sit unsold on their sites have a vested interest in keeping the auction sales price floor at a certain level. Many of these pages end up on re-sellers websites for insane amounts of money and will never get to be enjoyed by a collector. 

It’s not just dealers. Art reps and artists have tons of unsold material that’s just sitting there for, in some cases, months or years without selling. With the exception of a few “hot” modern books, most modern art just sits there. And I’d argue that other than maybe Tradd Moore, there are no modern artists whose stuff just sells no matter what the subject matter. It’s all dependent on what they’re drawing. 
 

As for Sal, he’s a great sequential storyteller. One of the best ever. He also drew some iconic stuff, and really was the Marvel house stylist in the late 70’s to mid 80’s. Much like Kirby, a lot of people who thought Sal was pedestrian back in the day have now come to appreciate him. Also, if you show a Sal Marvel superhero page to a lay person, they’ll get it. The characters are now well known to everyone, and even panel pages from that era can be viewed as pop art. 
 

I do not think a lot of the overpriced modern stuff is going to hold its value over time. 

[PhilipB2k17]

5 hours ago, babsrocks31 said:

I have a different question, before I answer the OP's:

How many older collectors are collecting newer artists?

    There are plenty of newer artists struggling to make decent money in the business, and I doubt any of them will ever be able to sell their work anywhere to close to the highs of the legends, even those from fifteen years ago. Many of these artists do great work, but are not with Marvel or DC. Comics grew so much in the nineties, there are so many other companies and independent creators now.

   Does anyone care about pages or commissions from people who likely have the chops to work with the big two, but are stuck with Dynamite or IDW, or even Image right now? It is likely that these artists will never, ever be able to sell a page for even 1k, and you could probably get a page from most of them right now for a crisp 100. Keeping the hobby alive actually depends less on if yet another person hops in line to pay 500usd for a head sketch by Adam Hughes or to bid 3k for a page by Kelly Jones. It depends a lot more on if anyone supports working artists actually working in comics today on a consistent, regular basis.

The greats of the past can't draw forever, but somebody like Alvaro Martinez or Amancay Nahuelapan, or Daniel Sampere might draw for another 40 years if the interest is there.

Answering for myself, I am a newer collector. I grew up with comics in the nineties, but I also have exposure to 80's comics and of course, some from the 2000s through to today. I don't have much interest in art from the 70's and older, and I couldn't afford it if I did. I mostly collect from newer artists, but I am a fan of some pieces from the eighties and nineties, and some silver or golden aged comics. I just can't afford to spend a grand or more on one piece of art. I have student debt, cost of living is insane, etc. A one bedroom condo in my city is at least 400k... I just started saving to make a decent down payment. I can afford to buy a couple pieces of art for 2 or 3 hundred a year, but not to bid on something worth 10k or nearly a quarter of my yearly salary.

Collecting comics and comic Art is a hobby for me, and I love it dearly, but I couldn't care about older art even if I wanted to... It's priced beyond what most of myself and my peers could afford (I am 30 and in Canada, btw).

And to be clear, I think 'older' art is often inspiring, amazing, and timeless... But to keep the hobby healthy I believe we need to spend just a bit more energy (and money) looking forward not backward.

 

Unless the comic they are drawing gets turned into a big TV show or movie that reaches pop culture phenom status, It’s unlikely. Just because it’s a TV show isn’t enough. It gives a short term bump to the art, but unless it’s a pop culture phenomenon like Walking Dead, it’s not going to elevate the art all that much. And even most Walking Dead art is fading, IMHO. 
 

I use the art from Ice Cream Man as an example. Tons of buzz from comic fans. Rated in the top ten comics. Martin Marazzo is a very interesting stylist as an artist. Yet, you can still buy most pages - plenty are available - for less than $200.

Partly it’s because the comic is an anthology with very few recurring characters. And the pages with the Ice Cream Man on them fo tend to carry a premium. But it’s not a Marvel or DC book, nor does it have a buzz worthy TV show or movie propping it up. (Although rumors are that’ll change in the next couple of years). 
 

 

[PhilipB2k17]

2 hours ago, Varanis said:

I'm probably one of the youngest collectors on the boards. Here's my perspective for whatever it's worth:

1) I think there are a ton of new collectors coming into the hobby. I definitely don't have the data, but based on Felix's success and anecdotal conversations, it certainly feels like the hobby is getting younger. I personally got into the hobby indirectly from the movies and I imagine many other have and will as well. I think there's the chance for enormous market movement if OA gets the right exposure. See Pokemon cards as an example...

2) Good art is good art. I collect mostly modern art, but Jack Kirby, Moebius, and other masters are on my long term must have list. Much of the best old art transcends generations and nostalgia. In an era where access to any age of media is nearly limitless, newer collectors are often raised knowing the influence of an artist like Jack Kirby. I mostly collect modern art due to quality for price. I can sometimes spend low 5 figures. With that capital I can get some of the best work modern art has to offer. I can't touch a lackluster bronze age cover for that price. I want a Kirby, but I don't want any Kirby. I could spend $2000+ to own an ok Kirby panel page or I could spend that same money to buy an incredible cover from a modern book. As much as I love Kirby, that isn't really a decision. I need more buying power to get the right Kirby piece. Even at low 5 figures, the right Kirby page can be tough to find - and at that number the comparison is a modern grail. I think it's a fallacy to assume newer collectors don't appreciate older art when the buy-in for that art comes at such a huge multiplier.

3) There's an enormous discrepancy between price and quality when comparing modern art and older art. I assume it's largely driven by nostalgia. I think that gap could narrow over time as quality of art drives newer collectors more than nostalgia. I think the movies are creating nostalgia for newer stories as well. Ribic Thor, Granov Iron Man, and many others speak exactly the language of the films and will likely resonate for years with collectors. 

3) I think we're going to continue to see an increased emphasis on "key" pages as well as comic collectors move into the market. I expect more granularity to emerge as to what is "key" as well. Just look at the comic market to see how much folks obsess over true-firsts, cameos and other nuances.

4) Get ready for monoprints and blockchain art to be much more of a thing. Collectibles evolve, and those are likely the next steps for art as more artists work digitally and younger collectors look for more affordable buy-ins.

God help us if monoprints take off. Fine art limited edition prints or lithographs aren’t comparable, IMHO. Also, stay away from anything blockchain. You want to know what a bubble is? That’s it. The energy consumption blockchain equation solving requires will eventually kill that tech. 
 

[New School Fool]

8 hours ago, babsrocks31 said:

The greats of the past can't draw forever, but somebody like Alvaro Martinez or Amancay Nahuelapan, or Daniel Sampere might draw for another 40 years if the interest is there.

 

2 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

It’s not just dealers. Art reps and artists have tons of unsold material that’s just sitting there for, in some cases, months or years without selling. With the exception of a few “hot” modern books, most modern art just sits there.

From my observation, whether it's original art or monoprints from not so well known artists, the good pages go quick. People are definitely buying them. The rest sit there for 'years' until collectors realise the artist is a hot commodity and then snap up the less desirable pages as investment opportunities. This time last year you could still buy a Tradd Moore page or cover on Felix's site, they went untouched for a while. I heard that a dealer initially had trouble shifting the famous McFarlane ASM #300 cover back in the day, and sat unsold for a few years.

Then there's the fact that the collectors with buying potential are simply not reading modern comics and have no interest in modern artists...this may explain the lack of sales of 'The Milkman' art. I was able to purchase a great ensemble All New All Different Avengers cover in the Black Friday sale for less than $1000. Eight characters on one page for less than $1000 - Insane! The art was unsold on the site for a year and I bought it in a sale! I couldn't believe it. The piece is unquestionably great art, maybe I was only able to purchase it because this team was overlooked by the 'big boy' collectors.

[Rick2you2]

2 hours ago, Shin-Kaiser said:

 

From my observation, whether it's original art or monoprints from not so well known artists, the good pages go quick. People are definitely buying them. The rest sit there for 'years' until collectors realise the artist is a hot commodity and then snap up the less desirable pages as investment opportunities. This time last year you could still buy a Tradd Moore page or cover on Felix's site, they went untouched for a while. I heard that a dealer initially had trouble shifting the famous McFarlane ASM #300 cover back in the day, and sat unsold for a few years.

Then there's the fact that the collectors with buying potential are simply not reading modern comics and have no interest in modern artists...this may explain the lack of sales of 'The Milkman' art. I was able to purchase a great ensemble All New All Different Avengers cover in the Black Friday sale for less than $1000. Eight characters on one page for less than $1000 - Insane! The art was unsold on the site for a year and I bought it in a sale! I couldn't believe it. The piece is unquestionably great art, maybe I was only able to purchase it because this team was overlooked by the 'big boy' collectors.

How do you define a “good” page? Opinions vary widely, and if new collectors aren’t reading the stories, then how can they possibly know whether the artist is doing a good job illustrating the whole story? Particularly with no word balloons? I think most modern professionals already have high illustrative skills, with the page design and layout partially dictated by the writer. So, it sounds to me they are largely picking based on an artist’s idiosyncratic style (with some being better than others).

[New School Fool]

1 hour ago, Rick2you2 said:

How do you define a “good” page?

My definition of 'good' here is the same as the scale used to determine the price of a page. eg. A splash of the main character in costume in an action pose (good) is more desirable (and more expensive) than a splash of the same character in civilian clothes in a neutral pose. (Not as good - regardless of the art). 

In a given issue, there's usually only one or two of these 'good' pages and they're always the first to go.

[PhilipB2k17]

3 hours ago, Shin-Kaiser said:

 

From my observation, whether it's original art or monoprints from not so well known artists, the good pages go quick. People are definitely buying them. The rest sit there for 'years' until collectors realise the artist is a hot commodity and then snap up the less desirable pages as investment opportunities. This time last year you could still buy a Tradd Moore page or cover on Felix's site, they went untouched for a while. I heard that a dealer initially had trouble shifting the famous McFarlane ASM #300 cover back in the day, and sat unsold for a few years.

Then there's the fact that the collectors with buying potential are simply not reading modern comics and have no interest in modern artists...this may explain the lack of sales of 'The Milkman' art. I was able to purchase a great ensemble All New All Different Avengers cover in the Black Friday sale for less than $1000. Eight characters on one page for less than $1000 - Insane! The art was unsold on the site for a year and I bought it in a sale! I couldn't believe it. The piece is unquestionably great art, maybe I was only able to purchase it because this team was overlooked by the 'big boy' collectors.

It’s Ice Cream Man. I get that older Collectors aren’t reading new stuff, except for Felix’s customers. He gets them interested in those newer books.  And don’t get me started on Tradd Moore. I was eying those Loki covers, especially the Cap #1 homage, for a while, but the large blank space on the top half bugged me. Now I wish I bought one of them when I had the chance. 

Edited February 10, 2021 by PhilipB2k17

[Rick2you2]

22 minutes ago, Shin-Kaiser said:

My definition of 'good' here is the same as the scale used to determine the price of a page. eg. A splash of the main character in costume in an action pose (good) is more desirable (and more expensive) than a splash of the same character in civilian clothes in a neutral pose. (Not as good - regardless of the art). 

In a given issue, there's usually only one or two of these 'good' pages and they're always the first to go.

I think that using that approach, you are missing out on some very good art. While out of costume characters typically are less valuable, that doesn’t address the many panel pages which aren’t splashes.

[Varanis]

6 hours ago, PhilipB2k17 said:

God help us if monoprints take off. Fine art limited edition prints or lithographs aren’t comparable, IMHO. Also, stay away from anything blockchain. You want to know what a bubble is? That’s it. The energy consumption blockchain equation solving requires will eventually kill that tech. 
 

I feel like monoprints already kind of have taken off. Kubert, Larraz, Reis, Marquez, and many others are producing them and they seem to sell about as well as OA albeit at reduced prices.

The blockchain energy problem is fixable. It’s only an issue with proof of work models. You hear a lot about the issue since Bitcoin uses proof of work and it’s the current poster boy for anything blockchain. However, many cryptocurrencies - including Ethereum, the second highest market cap coin - use a proof of stake model which doesn’t have energy use problems. All that said, it’s anyone’s guess what the future of cryptocurrency will look like, but it’s essentially a guarantee blockchain will change how we do a lot of things in the coming future.  

[jjonahjameson11]

These recent posts about newer (younger) collectors, current titles and new artists (within the last 10 years) are things I’d love Bill Cox to explore in his YouTube videos.

so many of us are between the ages of 45-55 and we’ve been collecting for 15+ years already, but it’s mostly the same old, same old.

I don’t remember the last time I purchased a new comic, let alone flipped through the pages to see what the art looks like now , but I’m willing to give it a try based on some recommendations here, and who knows?  Perhaps I’ll like it enough to pick up a page or two?

[New School Fool]

22 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

I think that using that approach, you are missing out on some very good art. While out of costume characters typically are less valuable, that doesn’t address the many panel pages which aren’t splashes.

You're right, but I was just using an easy to relay example. Typically, panel pages of great composition go equally as fast.

[Bronty]

On 2/7/2021 at 7:17 PM, filmboyuk said:

 

In terms of older art, as the nostalgic driver would be massively reduced for me (or more likely entirely absent), it is hard to imagine how much lower the prices would need to be in order for the other aspects to still motivate a purchase decision. I often see pieces that are kind of okay, by artists that are perhaps historically important to the medium, but it doesn't really matter how cheap they are - because there's always going to be a Frank Quitely page just around the corner that I'll love more, and (sadly) there's a finite amount of money to be deployed, so I'm not going to pick them up just on the basis of perceived value.

I

I know what you mean.   I look at older comic art i used to aspire to and these days the interest is just not there, and if I do buy comic art its from something I grew up with, even though I never really intended or 'tried' for it to work out that way.    Its just what I find happens.   

For me, heritage coming on and starting to sell things I've been more traditionally interested in (collectible games mainly) has been an eye opener too.    I could never quite bring myself to pull the trigger much at HA before and now that they've broadened the offerings a bit I find myself buying and selling more in a quarter with them than previously in a decade.   Again, not really by design.    But interesting, at least for me, to reflect on what sorts of things made me actually pull the trigger instead of just expressing a looky-loo drive-by interest at something.

I could be interested in it, I could admire it, but I wasn't going to be competitive on what I'd pay unless it was really squarely in my wheelhouse.

If others are similar to me, and I think they are, it certainly does speak to the generational effects on collecting.    You might love the old stuff too, but whether or not you pay for it... 

Edited February 10, 2021 by Bronty