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Art dealers struggling to get supply ?
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65 posts in this topic

9 minutes ago, Rick2you2 said:

Since I have my BA in Economics, I think I do. You probably don’t understand that a true free market can only exist in theory and for a snapshot of time. 

Um..."free" does not ever mean "fair". It simply means: no barriers to entry/exit, except those you erect yourself.

If you have to go spend five-six figures to get a piece of paper that shows you might know this...that, my friend, is the very definition of barrier to entry ;) 

Likewise, law school and passing the bar. Barriers to entry. Not free, by definition.

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What more interesting is on fairly high valued art at auction, we have heard examples where two people want the piece, they know each other, and one decides not to bid as high (or bid at all). The exact opposite of shilling. The Seller was the loser in that case.

That's not going to happen at lower prices, with a lot of demand, but definitely can happen on pieces with five figure or higher prices tags.

It looks like the old good days 
when they have access to premium material for cheap
are gone.

Two ways to look at that statement. 1) It's been gone for a really long time or 2) 10 years from now you will be referring to today as when access to premium material for cheap are gone.

Cheap is relative.

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4 hours ago, grapeape said:

Search eBay (make an offer)and dealer sites for art at the price point. No reason you should miss out on the fun. I honestly find art in that range all the time.

 

Agreed, it can actually be more fun finding low-end gems than forking over gazillions. Not easy, but doable.

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9 hours ago, vodou said:

Um..."free" does not ever mean "fair". It simply means: no barriers to entry/exit, except those you erect yourself.

If you have to go spend five-six figures to get a piece of paper that shows you might know this...that, my friend, is the very definition of barrier to entry ;) 

Likewise, law school and passing the bar. Barriers to entry. Not free, by definition.

Never said the law practice has no barriers to entry. Be thankful it does. Some of the misinformation about what is legal or not is appalling. As to free competition it carries a lot more significance than no barriers to entry (although that is a big one). It also includes, among other things, no non-economic biases, and perfect knowledge shared by all potential buyers. As to what is “fair”, that can depend upon your point of view. Is it “fair” for someone to engage in short term rental of an apartment in an area not zoned for hotels/motels if the temporary tenants have lots of noisy parties or leave bags of garbage in the halls (and no, the apartment owner does not respond to complaints and there is no practical legal recourse)?

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14 hours ago, thethedew said:

...and yet people joke occasionally about 'punishment bids' (a practice which I would resent, if actually attempted).

Just another type of 'shill bid?'

Not a shill, but obnoxious to deliberately cause harm for no gain.

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6 hours ago, exitmusicblue said:

Agreed, it can actually be more fun finding low-end gems than forking over gazillions. Not easy, but doable.

It's entirely possible to do. Even though it is fun it can also be a bit exhausting to try and keep on top of what is out there, sure being signed up to CAT helps but I still browse places it does and doesn't cover on a regular basis. Quite a lot of what I see in that range now is towards the upper end and closer to an example of the things I like as opposed to a diamond in the rough. I always have a small mental shortlist of the things I have seen and eventually one by one if I don't go for them someone else picks them off.

BTW is this topic crapping on contemporary comic art a little or are we also saying there isn't a steady enough flow of good comics being made using traditional methods to meet demand? 

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15 hours ago, sfilosa said:

What more interesting is on fairly high valued art at auction, we have heard examples where two people want the piece, they know each other, and one decides not to bid as high (or bid at all). The exact opposite of shilling. The Seller was the loser in that case.

 

Correct. It is called bid- rigging, and it is illegal, maybe criminal depending on the State and nature of the auction.

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On 2/21/2021 at 6:24 AM, Rick2you2 said:

From what I can tell, dealers can still get discounts, particularly if they are buying up lower end stuff, but it is so easy for individuals to market things right now on places like HA they probably don’t have the leverage they used to. I don’t care about high end material since I won’t buy it. So, they can add all the premiums they want.

Personally, I would love it if all my competitors were dealers at auctions. They have to make money at something to buy it for sale. I don’t. So logically, if I lose to a dealer, I have undervalued the piece, and that is my fault, or the dealer has way overvalued it. And yes, dealers do make mistakes. Just look at the dealers’ piles of stuff that sits around for years until the market has caught up. I have seen some pieces sit around for almost a decade without selling.

Dealers do have the advantage that their purchases escape sales tax, even if they keep them so long that they are functionally personal buys rather than business buys.

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8 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

As to what is “fair”, that can depend upon your point of view. Is it “fair” for someone to engage in short term rental of an apartment in an area not zoned for hotels/motels if the temporary tenants have lots of noisy parties or leave bags of garbage in the halls (and no, the apartment owner does not respond to complaints and there is no practical legal recourse)?

I can't respond to this with bumping into the Dreaded "P" situation lol 

But there is no fair, with or without the helping hand of legislation. It does not exist.

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7 minutes ago, RBerman said:

Dealers do have the advantage that their purchases escape sales tax, even if they keep them so long that they are functionally personal buys rather than business buys.

No doubt aspects of this are jurisdictionally different, but overall "inventory" requires reporting of the kind of aging (beyond calendar year, beyond fiscal year, beyond 365 days) you are suggesting. The Tax Man is not stupid, all the loopholes are covered except those bought and paid for by lobbyists. Comic art dealers do not have a lobby ;) so I suspect people are cheating mighty on their taxes lol 

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19 hours ago, sfilosa said:

What more interesting is on fairly high valued art at auction, we have heard examples where two people want the piece, they know each other, and one decides not to bid as high (or bid at all). The exact opposite of shilling. The Seller was the loser in that case.

We had a thread on this in recent years.  I didn't agree with the practice then and don't agree with it now.  Collectors in favour of this type of collusion were adamant that the seller didn't lose out, which I also disagreed with.

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5 hours ago, vodou said:

I can't respond to this with bumping into the Dreaded "P" situation lol 

But there is no fair, with or without the helping hand of legislation. It does not exist.

Specificity isn’t needed. You get my point. Perspective matters.

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On 2/21/2021 at 5:59 PM, grapeape said:

Search eBay (make an offer)and dealer sites for art at the price point. No reason you should miss out on the fun. I honestly find art in that range all the time.

 

I'm not bitter haha. I enjoyed many years of being able to find great stuff at the right price. Except for a few pieces, there's always something new out there that is equally as good. There are quite a few pages that are about 50% too high I'm watching now. If I can get them where I want them I'll buy but none are must-haves, just ones I'd enjoy having in my collection. 

Ebay still has great deals but Heritage is next to impossible nowadays.

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On 2/22/2021 at 5:45 AM, Rick2you2 said:
On 2/21/2021 at 3:30 PM, thethedew said:

...and yet people joke occasionally about 'punishment bids' (a practice which I would resent, if actually attempted).

Just another type of 'shill bid?'

Not a shill, but obnoxious to deliberately cause harm for no gain.

I always thought of those as zero sum game type moves. Anything I take out of you now I don't have to fight against later and maybe I push you out of your comfort buying zone when material I want comes up. I get why they do it.

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On 2/21/2021 at 7:24 AM, Rick2you2 said:

From what I can tell, dealers can still get discounts, particularly if they are buying up lower end stuff, but it is so easy for individuals to market things right now on places like HA they probably don’t have the leverage they used to. I don’t care about high end material since I won’t buy it. So, they can add all the premiums they want.

Personally, I would love it if all my competitors were dealers at auctions. They have to make money at something to buy it for sale. I don’t. So logically, if I lose to a dealer, I have undervalued the piece, and that is my fault, or the dealer has way overvalued it. And yes, dealers do make mistakes. Just look at the dealers’ piles of stuff that sits around for years until the market has caught up. I have seen some pieces sit around for almost a decade without selling.

Dealers are also restocking inventory with trades. People turning over pieces to offset the cost of higher end stuff. 

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36 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I always thought of those as zero sum game type moves. Anything I take out of you now I don't have to fight against later and maybe I push you out of your comfort buying zone when material I want comes up. I get why they do it.

That is definitely one reaction by some people. Others, however, just brace themselves up to go to a higher price point.

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I can speak for Peanuts art since every piece offered for sell, I am an active bidder below a certain price point.  As it goes up, I may drop out but I always make sure a piece sells above a certain price point.  Am I doing it to keep prices high?  No, I set a price I would be willing to pay for the piece to add to my collection and bid it up to that price.  If I win (which doesn’t happen often enough) I celebrate and impatiently wait for the piece to arrive.

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