Understanding Low run Variants, Grading, and shady characters on Ebay 1 1

[StyleMantis]

I'm not new to comics - I rediscovered the fun of them when I found my old collection as a kid. But I don't understand how some things work these days, so hopefully you can clarify. 

There's a book I'd like to buy that was ONLY issued as a graded 9.8 version. There was a limited run, so there are only so many out there - and they are numbered. No raw variants of this comic should be available. It is therefore expensive.

To my surprise, on Ebay there's someone selling this book, ungraded. There's another one also being sold as well, but it is with a different grading company than the original limited run. Neither have the limited run print numbers like the "original" batch. Both are cheaper than the original run, but not by much. So what's the deal?

Speculation aside (maybe they are copies that should have been destroyed, or they broke the case or whatever), If the original run of these books are numbered - and these are not - how do these get valued? Are they not worth as much (assuming they were re-graded at the same 9.8)? Or is it like a signed comic that the grading company didn't see get signed? Not worth as much? 

I'm just curious because I'm still debating whether I like the limited run variant idea or if I hate it. I can see how stores may not be not entirely truthful about how many are produced (or have shady people at the printers that steal some copies). What I do love is the art, which is in the end the real reason I'm considering the book to begin with.  

Thanks so much for any thoughts on this!

Edited March 5, 2021 by StyleMantis
Terrible grammer

[William-James88]

It would help if you said which book you were talking about and gave a link to the ebay page.

[theCapraAegagrus]

There will never be a comic book that only exists as a 9.8 CGC.

[StyleMantis]

8 hours ago, William-James88 said:

It would help if you said which book you were talking about and gave a link to the ebay page.

Don't want to post just yet, because #1 I'm still considering buying it (again, I like it mostly for the art vs. the value) and #2 if we determine it is some sort of a scam or whatever,  I don't want to encourage this practice. Is that fair or am I being silly here?

And yes, it was graded by the "other" company, not CGC. But I did some further digging and there are now two versions of this cover graded by CGC - one a 9.6 and the other a 9.8. But again, none of these should have been available raw for CGC to grade (according to the original seller). 

[William-James88]

2 minutes ago, StyleMantis said:

Don't want to post just yet, because #1 I'm still considering buying it (again, I like it mostly for the art vs. the value) and #2 if we determine it is some sort of a scam or whatever,  I don't want to encourage this practice. Is that fair or am I being silly here?

And yes, it was graded by the "other" company, not CGC. But I did some further digging and there are now two versions of this cover graded by CGC - one a 9.6 and the other a 9.8. But again, none of these should have been available raw for CGC to grade (according to the original seller). 

If we don't get those detail then I am afraid it's impossible to help since each book's release is different and what you may think you know about this particular release could be wrong.

[theCapraAegagrus]

10 minutes ago, StyleMantis said:

..none of these should have been available raw for CGC to grade (according to the original seller). 

Which is...?

[StyleMantis]

20 minutes ago, William-James88 said:

If we don't get those detail then I am afraid it's impossible to help since each book's release is different and what you may think you know about this particular release could be wrong.

Ok this is NOT the book, but it is being sold in the exact same way:

https://amorphousink.com/products/weapon-x-11-dellotto-variant-featuring-x-23?variant=2670856175645

The virgin variant is only sold graded, with a 250 run. So let's imagine this book, raw being sold on ebay. And two other versions of it graded CGC. 

The original seller was Frankies comics and that group (7 ate 9, etc.). Again, if I'm being stupid for not saying which book it is - let me know. I'll be really disappointed though if I found a cheap version of it that someone snatched up, however. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by StyleMantis
clarity

[Galen130]

[theCapraAegagrus]

Quote

As with all Ultimate Editions, it is limited to 250 individually numbered CBCS 9.8 copies. Any additional retailer stock will be properly accounted for and permanently disposed of directly by CBCS, who will document their efforts on each label. No other version of the cover will be released.

Yeah, no, that's a bunch of malarkey.

[theCapraAegagrus]

22 minutes ago, StyleMantis said:

...The virgin variant is only sold graded, with a 250 run...

They're lying.

Edited March 5, 2021 by Angel of Death

[Buzzetta]

There are many reasons that it could be sold raw or in another slab. 

Raw Books

1. The raw book was cracked out of the slab.  Just because a book is slabbed does not mean it will always be slabbed. 
2. Print overrun.  Just because a book is printed and shipped does not mean it is at 9.8 freshness out of the box.  CBCS only slabbed the books that were at a 9.8 level.  They did a prescreen and only slabbed those 9.8's which explains the sequential numbers.  
3. Extra or rejected copies may not have been destroyed.  
4. There are printing overruns in case something happens to the original shipment.  This is ALWAYS done with limited editions from a small percentage put to the side as file copies.  A small percentage are printed out first as printing proofs.  We see this with limited edition statues and limited edition plates and limited edition ... anything. 

New Slab

1. I don't want my book in a CBCS slab because I like freely spending money and decided to get it slabbed in a CGC slab instead. 

[StyleMantis]

Ok ok I think I understand. So this is legit, but by the nature of the practice of getting pristine books, unintentional (or intentional) shady things happen due to necessary overrun. For sake of hypotheticals to entertain a modern age noob like me to understand these variants:

1) Let's say 10 years from now, this book of "250 9.8 CBCS" is selling for $1000. A raw one comes up, gets graded by CGC at 9.8. Would one assume it would be worth around $1000 as well? or would it be less because it is no longer "certified" in its original numbered form? or would it be more because it's a shady "mystery" copy?

2) Assume you're not in it for the speculation value (for the most part, but let's be real, money is money). Let's say you love the art/artist, the character or whatever. Would you get the "legit" copy (in this case) for $150? Or would you go for a raw copy for say $50 (also knowing it's most likely not a 9.8)? In my case, I like the idea that it is rare and I intend on keeping it for years and giving it to a grandkid some day. I'm not buying it and expecting it to appreciate much in value. But I don't want to buy an "uncertified" one that I know is going to NEVER appreciate in value. Does that make sense?

3) We established that the 250 is most likely not entirely truthful. But if we say for example, there's 250 certified and another 750 "floating" around. Because this is all make believe anyway, and only the original seller knows, does it even matter? Don't collectors have to assume they are very rare due to the relative scarcity? 

Sorry if all these questions have already been asked before, but I can't seem to find them online anywhere. Thanks so much so far for all the advice. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by StyleMantis
To make it rated G

[BlowUpTheMoon]

@RockMyAmadeus

[Gatsby77]

37 minutes ago, StyleMantis said:

Ok ok I think I understand. So this is legit, but by the nature of the practice of getting pristine books, unintentional (or intentional) shady things happen due to necessary overrun. For sake of hypotheticals to entertain a modern age noob like me to understand these variants:

1) Let's say 10 years from now, this book of "250 9.8 CBCS" is selling for $1000. A raw one comes up, gets graded by CGC at 9.8. Would one assume it would be worth around $1000 as well? or would it be less because it is no longer "certified" in its original numbered form? or would it be more because it's a shady "mystery" copy?

2) Assume you're not in it for the speculation value (for the most part, but let's be real, money is money). Let's say you love the art/artist, the character or whatever. Would you get the "legit" copy (in this case) for $150? Or would you go for a raw copy for say $50 (also knowing it's most likely not a 9.8)? In my case, I like the idea that it is rare and I intend on keeping it for years and giving it to a grandkid some day. I'm not buying it and expecting it to appreciate much in value. But I don't want to buy an "uncertified" one that I know is going to NEVER appreciate in value. Does that make sense?

3) We established that the 250 is most likely not entirely truthful. But if we say for example, there's 250 certified and another 750 "floating" around. Because this is all make believe anyway, and only the original seller knows, does it even matter? Don't collectors have to assume they are very rare due to the relative scarcity? 

Sorry if all these questions have already been asked before, but I can't seem to find them online anywhere. Thanks so much so far for all the advice. 

The answer to # 1 is an easy yes.

If the book is understood to be limited to "X" number of copies, it should continue to be (generally) understood to have that print run even if you lose the slab (and thus, exact number). Shouldn't matter if it's slabbed with the original number or not.

Example - VVSS valiant books. While ideally they come with the original embossed certificate number, some have been separated from them in the ensuing 20+ years. Others are "considered" VVSS books despite not being officially part of the run (example: the signed run of Bloodshot # 6).

Example - Sealed packs of early Image books. I have sealed packs of WildCATS 0-4 and (I think) Spawn # 1-5 from some sort of 1992 re-seller like American Entertainment. These packs are individually numbered (out of something like 25k). Are the books worth more sealed rather than raw? No. The only reason they might go for (slightly) more is the sales angle that they're "probably 9.8" (which is itself a fallacy.

Example - uber high-grade EC books.Yes - the Gaines File Copies are more desirable, but that doesn't mean that non-Gaines CGC 9.6 or 9.8 are worth considerably less money. And in some cases, the highest-graded copies of the books aren't actually Gaines File Copies after all.

[bababooey]

1 hour ago, BlowUpTheMoon said:

@RockMyAmadeus

[shadroch]

Sealed packs go for more because there are so few of them. There are hundreds of thousands of loose Image books. There is nowhere near that many sealed multi-packs.

[Qalyar]

19 hours ago, Six Pack said:

I have to disagree with this. The numbering is on the books so there's no way to lose the exact number. If the seller says there are only 250 numbered copies and you find one not numbered,  that's super sketchy. But not unexpected.

Happens to a great many numbered limited releases, and is among the reasons why CGC doesn't include run count on the slab labeling.