True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee 6 6

[Prince Namor]

For the hardcore Stan Lee fan, anything that questions his legacy as the Comic Book Svengali, is met with a complete dismissal. So for those people, they should probably go to the next thread, or pick up a different book then. Not that True Believer isn't fair to Stan - it gives him the benefit of the doubt on many occasions, but for those in their 50's who still have a white knuckle grip on their 13 year old memories, that still won't be enough. And the sad last years of his life are something they REALLY don't want to read about.

See, the purpose of this book, was to try and tell the real story... not the candy coated, BSful, face front of one of Stan's ghost written biographies - but what we really know. And as such, there's no definitive determination on who wrote what - it just goes into detail about the Marvel method and who SAID what and when. Don't get me wrong - it calls out Stan on many of his life story 'embellishments', it just makes no hard fast pronouncements that Jack created all of this or Ditko created all of that.

Which is a good thing actually - because when taken as a whole - Stan Lee's story pretty much TELLS us the truth anyway. Because as much as Jordan Raphael and Tom Spurgeon's 'Stan Lee and the Rise and Fall of the American Comic Book' peeled back some of the layers of Lee's story - in the end, we needed the complete tale to see the whole story. Summed up... Stan was drifting through life, when he met the woman of his dreams, and used some questionable means to give her the Boujee lifestyle she wanted and set their family up for life. But like the stories that he used to do with Steve Ditko in the 50's, there ended up a dark side to that lifestyle, and the questionable means he would use to get there, ended up being used by others to take advantage of him for the few last decades of his life.

As much as I have a certain level of resentment towards Stan, because of how Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were treated, I couldn't help but feel incredibly sad in reading about the last years of Stan's life. Beyond being someone who made comic books more fun, more interesting, more culturally investing and helped create a universe unlike any before or since, he was just a man - and seeing just a man, taken advantage of as badly as he was, was really sad to read about in detail. And his daughter... oy vey!

Fame was a drug for Stan - and the money he made from it was necessary to make sure his wife Joan and his daughter JC had a luxurious life that never left any desire out of reach. But it came back to haunt him in many ways, and this book details it, taken from the people who were there and later on from Stan's own archives and audio recordings, and in the case of some of Stan's former 'friends', even video recordings. It's as complete a story as we'll probably ever get, from Stan's upbringing, through to his passing away. 

Some will see this as a travesty (who wants to read about the TRUTH?), but for me, it puts Stan in a human perspective that makes him more relatable. He was a man. He did good things, he did bad things. But he created an unmatched legacy, that unfortunately fed him and tortured him at the same time. He was propped up and had his carcass picked at by vultures for the ten years of his life. How can you not feel empathy for that? 

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

39 minutes ago, Prince Namor said:

For the hardcore Stan Lee fan, anything that questions his legacy as the Comic Book Svengali, is met with a complete dismissal. So for those people, they should probably go to the next thread, or pick up a different book then. Not that True Believer isn't fair to Stan - it gives him the benefit of the doubt on many occasions, but for those in their 50's who still have a white knuckle grip on their 13 year old memories, that still won't be enough. And the sad last years of his life are something they REALLY don't want to read about.

See, the purpose of this book, was to try and tell the real story... not the candy coated, BSful, face front of one of Stan's ghost written biographies - but what we really know. And as such, there's no definitive determination on who wrote what - it just goes into detail about the Marvel method and who SAID what and when. Don't get me wrong - it calls out Stan on many of his life story 'embellishments', it just makes no hard fast pronouncements that Jack created all of this or Ditko created all of that.

Which is a good thing actually - because when taken as a whole - Stan Lee's story pretty much TELLS us the truth anyway. Because as much as Jordan Raphael and Tom Spurgeon's 'Stan Lee and the Rise and Fall of the American Comic Book' peeled back some of the layers of Lee's story - in the end, we needed the complete tale to see the whole story. Summed up... Stan was drifting through life, when he met the woman of his dreams, and used some questionable means to give her the Boujee lifestyle she wanted and set their family up for life. But like the stories that he used to do with Steve Ditko in the 50's, there ended up a dark side to that lifestyle, and the questionable means he would use to get there, ended up being used by others to take advantage of him for the few last decades of his life.

As much as I have a certain level of resentment towards Stan, because of how Jack Kirby and Steve Ditko were treated, I couldn't help but feel incredibly sad in reading about the last years of Stan's life. Beyond being someone who made comic books more fun, more interesting, more culturally investing and helped create a universe unlike any before or since, he was just a man - and seeing just a man, taken advantage of as badly as he was, was really sad to read about in detail. And his daughter... oy vey!

Fame was a drug for Stan - and the money he made from it was necessary to make sure his wife Joan and his daughter JC had a luxurious life that never left any desire out of reach. But it came back to haunt him in many ways, and this book details it, taken from the people who were there and later on from Stan's own archives and audio recordings, and in the case of some of Stan's former 'friends', even video recordings. It's as complete a story as we'll probably ever get, from Stan's upbringing, through to his passing away. 

Some will see this as a travesty (who wants to read about the TRUTH?), but for me, it puts Stan in a human perspective that makes him more relatable. He was a man. He did good things, he did bad things. But he created an unmatched legacy, that unfortunately fed him and tortured him at the same time. He was propped up and had his carcass picked at by vultures for the ten years of his life. How can you not feel empathy for that? 

Looks good. Do you know who Abraham Riesman is?

[MatterEaterLad]

I've read the other books about Stan and they barely touch (or skip over) the fiascos with Stan Lee Media and POW! Entertainment. I agree with you, this book goes there. It goes everywhere. The complete disconnect between Stan and his brother, Larry, was especially tragic. 

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Looks good. Do you know who Abraham Riesman is?

I wasn't familiar with him before this. Apparently he was an arts and culture writer for New York magazine for many years.

[Ken Aldred]

As a kid he was always the genius creator of Silver Age Marvel, and considered so by me very naively.  His death was very affecting, and I still felt grateful for what he'd created and how much enjoyment that world had given me over the decades.  But, with age and maturity, I was also able to recognise and accept the major contributions of other creators such as Kirby and Ditko, and that Silver Age Marvel was increasingly becoming a grey area for me, enclosing the efforts of many different contributors, not just those of a writer / editor solely going forward with a unique, focused vision and masterplan.

So, it's a good time to read a book like this, the full story of struggle and success, of fair accrediting and underhanded dismissal of others' achievements, of manipulation by him and, in the end, of him by others.

It’s something that happens frequently with enough time, such as idolising a creator at a distance, based upon very limited, filtered social information, and then meeting them at a convention and being disappointed by some of their character traits and that they’re not the paragon you imagined.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Ken Aldred

[theCapraAegagrus]

Comics Journeral.

[Prince Namor]

2 hours ago, Ken Aldred said:

As a kid he was always the genius creator of Silver Age Marvel, and considered so by me very naively.  His death was very affecting, and I still felt grateful for what he'd created and how much enjoyment that world had given me over the decades.  But, with age and maturity, I was also able to recognise and accept the major contributions of other creators such as Kirby and Ditko, and that Silver Age Marvel was increasingly becoming a grey area for me, enclosing the efforts of many different contributors, not just those of a writer / editor solely going forward with a unique, focused vision and masterplan.

So, it's a good time to read a book like this, the full story of struggle and success, of fair accrediting and underhanded dismissal of others' achievements, of manipulation by him and, in the end, of him by others.

Well said. 

[Robot Man]

I have no need or desire to read this. Stan equally with Kirby and Ditko created the Marvel Universe. I was born at the perfect time to buy the first issues off the newstand and I did. I have watched the empire they created become a huge part of American culture. This is all that really matters and their legacy not their personal lives. 

Similar situation with a lot of my musical idols such as Hendrix, Morrison and Joplin. Their music and contribution to popular music is all that really matters. I know about how they died and it is tragic. 

Their personal lives are irrevelant to what they left for me to enjoy. 

[Ken Aldred]

57 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

I have no need or desire to read this. Stan equally with Kirby and Ditko created the Marvel Universe. I was born at the perfect time to buy the first issues off the newstand and I did. I have watched the empire they created become a huge part of American culture. This is all that really matters and their legacy not their personal lives. 

Similar situation with a lot of my musical idols such as Hendrix, Morrison and Joplin. Their music and contribution to popular music is all that really matters. I know about how they died and it is tragic. 

Their personal lives are irrevelant to what they left for me to enjoy. 

It’s a good point to focus on the product they created rather than maintain a largely delusional sense of ‘connection’ to someone that you barely know.   A good example is Rush’s lyricist and drummer, Neil Peart, an intensely-private individual who was very uncomfortable with how fans idolised him, and retreated away from contact, leaving that meeting-and-greeting to Lee and Lifeson.  A significant loss for me last year, but discovering that about him made me think that he has a strong argument; enjoy what was created, don’t get that fixated on the writer or artist personally, on a fallacy at a distance.

I’m pretty much following his strategy now; read the comics, have little interest in meeting the creators in person, even whenever that becomes possible again.

I still don’t mind learning new character traits or bits of history about the creators, iconoclasm, maybe, as here, or also maybe constructive, fleshing them out more three-dimensionally as real human beings rather than shining, flawless paragons.

Edited March 10, 2021 by Ken Aldred

[Robot Man]

Rock stars, sports stars and other public figures have legions of fans that idolize them and believe in them. Including bad and distructive behavior. Many people are not just satisfied to appreciate their “product” but feel the need to immulate their life styles as well. Sad, but there are people who just can’t think for themselves. 

I wouldn’t put comic creators in the same category. I have met many and had conversations with them but only on the subject of their “product” not their personal lives. 

[Cobbledclam]

[Spyder!]

6 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

He was a man. He did good things, he did bad things. 

Exactly.  I will always love Stan Lee.  That doesn't mean I can't admit he did some bad things too.  He was human after all.

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, Ken Aldred said:

I still don’t mind learning new character traits or bits of history about the creators, iconoclasm, maybe, as here, or also maybe constructive, fleshing them out more three-dimensionally as real human beings rather than shining, flawless paragons.

Exactly. And there's no hero worship here... it's just trying to understand the true history of a hobby I've spent my entire life following. I AM curious as to what was said behind the scenes.

When I was 12, the fall of 1975, me and a friend of mine called the Marvel offices, not once, but twice. Once from my house and once from his house. (So we got in trouble from TWO sets of parents for the long distance calls). I was curious to talk to these guys who were creating these stories. Stan we talked to very briefly - obviously he had a lot going on - but John Romita talked to us for while on one call and Gerry Conway on the other. We asked them questions and probably said a lot of dumb stuff (I'm pretty sure we told them we didn't like Gil Kane's art), and Romita sent us each an autographed reproduced drawing (the one of him at the drawing table with all of the Marvel characters above him) that I still have to this day.

I just find it interesting. 

[Larryw7]

I thought it was an excellent book that peeled back the layers so we could see the real Stan Lee. I've always found him to be a fascinating guy. He was pure magic when he was onstage at a comic con or when being interviewed. I didn't find the book to be a hatchet job, it was an honest attempt at trying to tell the truth.

What really disappointed me were Stan's insensitive and racist comments caught on those tapes. It doesn't jibe with everything he wrote on the Bullpen pages for years. But his last year was truly tragic and was probably enough to wipe away any sins he committed. 

I don't think Stan fans should avoid this book. He's not a villain. Just a flawed human being (aren't we all?).

 

[the blob]

His net worth was around $50 million when he died, so he didn't fall too hard, unlike some of the talent who died unable to pay medical bills, etc. It's not like he ever owned Marvel, if he did we could speculate on how rich he could have been had they not sold off properties, etc. ron perelman messed all that up. had he not mortgaged marvel he could have solid it for the many billions disney has spent buying marvel and getting properties back from fox and what spiderman would be worth right now. of course, all of that assumes a lot of things. maybe a good episode of "What If?"

 

[the blob]

1 hour ago, Prince Namor said:

Exactly. And there's no hero worship here... it's just trying to understand the true history of a hobby I've spent my entire life following. I AM curious as to what was said behind the scenes.

When I was 12, the fall of 1975, me and a friend of mine called the Marvel offices, not once, but twice. Once from my house and once from his house. (So we got in trouble from TWO sets of parents for the long distance calls). I was curious to talk to these guys who were creating these stories. Stan we talked to very briefly - obviously he had a lot going on - but John Romita talked to us for while on one call and Gerry Conway on the other. We asked them questions and probably said a lot of dumb stuff (I'm pretty sure we told them we didn't like Gil Kane's art), and Romita sent us each an autographed reproduced drawing (the one of him at the drawing table with all of the Marvel characters above him) that I still have to this day.

I just find it interesting. 

Romita Sr. was a pure delight when I met him at a show in like 1995. He signed a few books for me, chatted about this and that. Some guy had just finished asking him to sign like 50 books and he was nice about it. There was no line. Romita Jr. had a line 100 people long. That made no sense to me! Makes me regret not taking advantage of these opportunities back in the day when autographs were not a profit center. People knock Chris Claremont, but I also found him to be pretty pleasant. This was back when they didn't charge for sigs...

Edited March 10, 2021 by the blob

[mrc]

9 hours ago, Prince Namor said:

For the hardcore Stan Lee fan, anything that questions his legacy as the Comic Book Svengali, is met with a complete dismissal.

I don't think that's true, certainly not by me anyway. However, after looking at several reviews for this book the one comment that seemed to sum up the consensus was, "There is a nasty tone throughout the book which will become glaringly obvious to objective readers, but appeal to, and reinforce the views of those who want to believe the worst."........

[shadroch]

I look at the fantastic characters and incredible storylines Kirby and Ditko produced in the 1950s and realize how lucky Lee was for them  to come work with him.   Kirby was in the business for well over twenty years before he joined Marvel and Ditko was working for Charlton, about as low as you could go for an artist.  How lucky did Stan get, considering how much demand there was for these guys services?

When Jack returned to Marvel, he was living in a distinctly middle class house he had lived in for a decade.  Eight years later, he moved to California, to a beachfront mini-mansion. Funny how that turned out. 

[Prince Namor]

1 hour ago, the blob said:

His net worth was around $50 million when he died, so he didn't fall too hard, unlike some of the talent who died unable to pay medical bills, etc. It's not like he ever owned Marvel, if he did we could speculate on how rich he could have been had they not sold off properties, etc. ron perelman messed all that up. had he not mortgaged marvel he could have solid it for the many billions disney has spent buying marvel and getting properties back from fox and what spiderman would be worth right now. of course, all of that assumes a lot of things. maybe a good episode of "What If?"

 

Stan didn't outright own the characters, but it's been well documented in a few books that he used the possibility of battling Marvel over ownership if they didn't set him up the way he wanted. He made somewhere more than half a million and less than a million a year for the first 20+ years (1975's $600,000 is almost $3 mil in today's dollars), and then signed the base salary $1 Million a year (with plenty of perks, including added stock options) contract in 1998, before suing them in 2005 for his cut of the movie profits.

So yeah, he didn't own them outright, but he made a fair share of money from them.

[Prince Namor]

38 minutes ago, shadroch said:

I look at the fantastic characters and incredible storylines Kirby and Ditko produced in the 1950s and realize how lucky Lee was for them  to come work with him.   Kirby was in the business for well over twenty years before he joined Marvel and Ditko was working for Charlton, about as low as you could go for an artist.  How lucky did Stan get, considering how much demand there was for these guys services?

He WAS lucky. It looks as if Goodman was preparing to close their doors on the comic book division of his company. They produced ZERO books for the newsstand in the month of August (1958). Stan's best artist had died, most had been laid off and were working elsewhere and Goodman had made a horrible distribution deal.

Until Kirby walked in. And why wouldn't Goodman like the idea? Kirby with Joe Simon had given him one of his greatest selling books of all-time (Captain America Comics) and then they'd gone on to great success at DC with the Guardian, Newsboy Legion, etc. and then had even bigger success on their own with the Romance genre. He was a proven work horse and a proven seller.

He brought the ideas he was already doing (that Marvel wasn't), like Giant Monsters and Sci-Fi and Heroic Teams and with Stan tweaked them to even greater heights. You're very right, Stan was lucky indeed. He hadn't achieved anything in comics for those first 20 years, and editing Kirby proved to be a godsend.

Ditko was a younger guy in the business, but based upon his work at Charlton (which anyone who's read it can see was superb), he was another great catch. Stan was very lucky indeed.