True Believer: The Rise and Fall of Stan Lee 6 6

[lordbyroncomics]

Also, whatever one wants to say about Jack Kirby- he likely was not a stupid man in the early eighties and was told by his legal team to dictate his exact notes, for the legal record, they were recorded and then Kirby signed them. To go to court. To a judge. And they line up with everything else he said. Note that he does credit Stan for the "balloon dialogue" and does not say that he did the dialogue. 

 

When I arrived at Marvel in 1959, it was closing shop that very afternoon, according to what was related to me by “Stan Lee.”

The comic book dept. was another victim of the Dr. Wertham negative cycle + definitely was following in the wake of EC Comics, “The Gaines Publishing House.”

In order to keep working I suggested to Stan Lee that to initiate a new line of “Super Heroes” he submit my ideas to Martin Goodman the Publisher of Marvel.

To insure sales I also did the writing which I was not credited for as “Stan Lee” wrote the credits for all of the books which I did not contest because of his relationship with the publisher “Martin Goodman.”

Although I was not allowed to write the “Balloon” dialogue, the stories, the characters + the additional planning for the scripts progress was strictly due to my own foresight + literary workmanship.

There were no scripts. I created the characters + wrote the stories in my own home + merely brought them into the office each month.

 

 

[lordbyroncomics]

Just now, kav said:

Dont know if this is part of the puzzle but from wikipedia:
On the night of his death, "past midnight of what was early Sunday morning," June 7, 1958, Maneely had dined hours earlier with fellow laid-off Atlas colleagues, including George Ward and John Severin, in Manhattan.^[25] He did not have his glasses with him, and was killed when he accidentally fell between the cars of a moving commuter train on his way home to New Jersey.^[26]

I swear I don't mean this in some snobbish way (and it's not directed at you Kav, but in general)- really! I just don't know how else to convey it, but- some of us have known all about this for years, and that's part of what I'm trying to convey: it's evident to me that some people who argue passionately just haven't done the research and/or are blatantly unaware about things that they should know about before they start arguing. There's an issue of Alter Ego devoted to Maneely and has an interview with his daughter that goes into how his death affected the family and how her mother struggled with three young children. I believe she said elsewhere- and I think this says a lot about the GOOD aspect of Stan- that Stan sent Maneely's widow money for a year after Joe's untimely death. But yeah- you've got to really go into the history of things and not just rely on common hearsay from message boards. Marie Severin also stated that her brother John and Bill Everett had been on Joe to go drinking a lot and that *also* contributed to it. And some people say Joe's workload- which was exhaustive- contributed to him having dizzy spells in the weeks before his death. You've got to read and absorb everything and compare and contrast, if you're gonna stand up for the things you say.

[kav]

Just now, wisbyron said:

I swear I don't mean this in some snobbish way (and it's not directed at you Kav, but in general)- really! I just don't know how else to convey it, but- some of us have known all about this for years, and that's part of what I'm trying to convey: it's evident to me that some people who argue passionately just haven't done the research and/or are blatantly unaware about things that they should know about before they start arguing. There's an issue of Alter Ego devoted to Maneely and has an interview with his daughter that goes into how his death affected the family and how her mother struggled with three young children. I believe she said elsewhere- and I think this says a lot about the GOOD aspect of Stan- that Stan sent Maneely's widow money for a year after Joe's untimely death. But yeah- you've got to really go into the history of things and not just rely on common hearsay from message boards. Marie Severin also stated that her brother John and Bill Everett had been on Joe to go drinking a lot and that *also* contributed to it. And some people say Joe's workload- which was exhaustive- contributed to him having dizzy spells in the weeks before his death. You've got to read and absorb everything and compare and contrast, if you're gonna stand up for the things you say.

I am way out of my depth and only saw the fact that he had been laid off as some possible clue to something related to stan stopped publishing comics because maneely died when in fact he was laid off.

[lordbyroncomics]

1 minute ago, kav said:

I am way out of my depth and only saw the fact that he had been laid off as some possible clue to something related to stan stopped publishing comics because maneely died when in fact he was laid off.

No no, that wasn't directed at you just like- it simply made me think like, yeah, we're going into deep waters and some people don't have the frame of reference, you know? But that reference is there if people want to pursue it and I think they should if they're going to continue to the discussion and infer people lack credibility, that's all. Kav, we're all learning together my man!

[kav]

Looking at Kirby's solo stuff, the panels, pacing and general plots, I fully believe he did the bulk of plotting.  If you can visualize Stan's dialogue in say the Eternals, it would read just like any SA Marvel book IMO.

[kav]

-bulk if not all.

[lordbyroncomics]

2 minutes ago, kav said:

-bulk if not all.

Sure, that's fair (to say if Stan dialogued the Eternals..). But "bulk if not all", do you mean on the Eternals? Because Kirby did everything on that book, no one was plotting for him.

[kav]

20 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

Sure, that's fair (to say if Stan dialogued the Eternals..). But "bulk if not all", do you mean on the Eternals? Because Kirby did everything on that book, no one was plotting for him.

no no I meant the SA marvel titles he worked on.

[Coverless 9.8]

23 hours ago, kav said:

Oh yeah ok-well what happend was when I was like 18 I noticed a 6 fingered spider man in one panel so I sent in a letter and sure enough Bill Mantlo sent me a six fingered signed no prize!  Sold it on ebay like an insufficiently smart person-and when I went to mail it I got a parking ticket so my sale netted me negative $35 dollars.

It was a delayed reaction from the potion he took to rid him of his spider powers in Amazing #100!  The six arms were the immediate result, but the sixth finger, (apologies to Gwyllm ) , took much longer to manifest itself!  

[kav]

2 minutes ago, Coverless 9.8 said:

It was a delayed reaction from the potion he took to rid him of his spider powers in Amazing #100!  The six arms were the immediate result, but the sixth finger, (apologies to Gwyllm ) , took much longer to manifest itself!  

bingo

[kav]

I just realized my exhibit A of ditko saying he got a -script from stan-this page was written by stan!!  Look at the smart-alecky writing style.  No way ditko wrote this.

[lordbyroncomics]

1 hour ago, kav said:

I just realized my exhibit A of ditko saying he got a --script from stan-this page was written by stan!!  Look at the smart-alecky writing style.  No way ditko wrote this.

Don't worry Kav... we already knew  

Stan wrote this, and I do enjoy his self-deprecating gag (which he does in other Silver Age Marvel Comics, like when he has Ayers think great misery to himself when Stan tells him they're going to be working together when the war is over, etc.) and it's part of his charm. But yeah man- I'm glad you're learning more about this stuff, seriously. No time like the present! 

[kav]

2 minutes ago, wisbyron said:

Don't worry Kav... we already knew  

Stan wrote this, and I do enjoy his self-deprecating gag (which he does in other Silver Age Marvel Comics, like when he has Ayers think great misery to himself when Stan tells him they're going to be working together when the war is over, etc.) and it's part of his charm. But yeah man- I'm glad you're learning more about this stuff, seriously. No time like the present! 

   Stan Lee!

[lordbyroncomics]

There's a lot of things to read, my man. The more you read and absorb, it's like a tapestry that all comes together and certain things are impossible to ignore, explain away or rationalize. Stan changes a lot and the changes coincide with corporate changes going on around and above him. Desperate to preserve his security and stability, Stan adheres to what the corporate investors want, and demand: for him to preserve the myth of him as sole creator since he will not ever try to rock the boat. If a freelancer like Kirby tries to claim any creation, it's potential troublesome for the corporate owners. It really is as simple as this.

No one is trying to take away that Stan was a gregarious, charming, witty and oft-talented dialogue writer, clever with a word and a warm and inviting voice for fans all over. All of that is true. But Stan also lied and allowed lies and misunderstandings to grow. That is true, too. You can be charming and be loved and still be a B-S artist. 

Edited April 13, 2021 by wisbyron
fixing language

[Get Marwood & I]

Not sure if this has been posted here or elsewhere, but I saw it online and thought others in this thread might like to see it:

[mr_highgrade]

On 9/18/2021 at 7:51 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

Not sure if this has been posted here or elsewhere, but I saw it online and thought others in this thread might like to see it:

He looks like Peter Parker! 

[Get Marwood & I]

On 9/18/2021 at 1:30 PM, mr_highgrade said:

He looks like Peter Parker! 

 

[mr_highgrade]

On 9/18/2021 at 9:29 AM, Get Marwood & I said:

 

I rest my case. 

[comicwiz]

On 3/10/2021 at 6:40 AM, Prince Namor said:

He was propped up and had his carcass picked at by vultures for the ten years of his life. How can you not feel empathy for that?

For some years, I was seeing the warning signs for elder abuse. I would post about them as stories began to culminate on my FB timeline, I can't tell you how many times people either used the argument that keeping himself busy was the best way to not feel alone after his wife's passing. Others thought it was inappropriate to get involved in their personal family matters. Even talking about it or calling into question the people he surrounded himself with was seen as wrong.

It was over a decade ago when I first began to research elder abuse for a client assignment. The statistics and likelihood of this happening to you, a friend, or some you know is staggering. I feel having an above average understanding of the subject helped me immensely when I had to worry about transitioning my Mom into a long-term care setting, but I'm still dealing with it (trying to find remedies) on another level through an extended family member as we speak. When you've lived through something like this, you may not initially understand why, but you begin to see how/why parental instincts can be faulty when the abuse is ignored or covered-up, but especially, why it goes under reported.

To your point, I agree that it's incredibly sad when you know what's happening. Empathy and knowing how bad the abuse can get from the statistics of it going on in long term care environments, right through to managed care in one's own home setting, and the mega trend of transitioning care for the elderly (something we will all have to deal with in our lifetime, and based on the forums demographics, many of us already have, or will need to in the near future); it all made me hope most of all that people witnessing Stan Lee going through what he did would use his experience as a learning moment to understand and know the signs of abuse. Never feel like you are doing the wrong thing by reporting it. It doesn't have to be someone rich and famous, it could happen to the average person, no one deserves to live the final years of their life in an abusive situation. 

Edited September 18, 2021 by comicwiz

[kav]

Jack Kirby trying to write 'hippie' dialogue.  Yeah there's no way he wrote the scripts for SA Marvel: