Value of UK price variant SA grails 3 3

[Frederic9494]

27 minutes ago, piper said:

Back to the original post, I have steered away from UK pence editions much like I've stayed away from restored SA books.  I assumed that the buying pool would be smaller if I ever went to sell them.

Is that stigma still there or are collectors changing their tune now that prices have gone parabolic?

What factor would you apply to a UK variant?

When I buy: 30-40% discount

When I sell: On par with US original! 

[Get Marwood & I]

21 minutes ago, piper said:

Back to the original post, I have steered away from UK pence editions much like I've stayed away from restored SA books.  I assumed that the buying pool would be smaller if I ever went to sell them.

Is that stigma still there or are collectors changing their tune now that prices have gone parabolic?

What factor would you apply to a UK variant?

I don't follow pricing that closely myself but there seems to be lots of recent evidence of an increase in interest and prices for Marvel keys in pence. I think a graded WWBN #32 sold for more in pence recently than any equivalent cents copy had ever achieved but I might have that wrong. Early silver age keys are doing really well based on the auction results I'm seeing and are realising very strong prices almost up to cents parity. So I would say it varies widely now - the ratio would likely be very high for the notable books, and very low for the run fillers. 

In a similar vein, I'm seeing evidence of huge price increases for UK produced publications which reprint key US material. My old copy of Out of This World #17, an Alan Class UK produced title which reprints AF#15 used to sell for anything between £20 and £70 up until very recently. Now there is a graded copy on eBay which has been bid up to £650 with days to go. Anything UK produced that reprints the first appearances of Marvel characters for the first time in a UK licensed publication seem to be on the rise spectacularly. 

Comics with significant Marvel content just seem to have gone nuts whether they are the US originals, UK Price Variants or foreign produced licensed reprints. Heady times we're in it seems. 

[mikeyc67]

On the Alan Class reprints my experience also - one of my goals last year was to complete the Marvel superhero covers so have been watching these.

 

[Pantodude]

8 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I think a graded WWBN #32 sold for more in pence recently than any equivalent cents copy had ever achieved but I might have that wrong

I found it.  You are correct.  In Dec 2020, a blue CGC 9.4 UK Price Variant WWBN #32 sold for $13,535 (!), annhilating the prior high of $3,238 set in Nov 2019 for the cents version.  $13,535 was even more than the all-time high for the cents version in 9.6, which recently sold for $12,300 on March 6.  Wow.  Just wow.  But that's a Bronze Age book.  Maybe BA folks are a bit more exuberant than SA folks.    Maybe not.  I like to think of  myself as exuberant.    

[gadzukes]

It's been a while since I did one of these comparisons.  Pence copies of major Marvel keys sell so rarely.  

Here are the most recent sales comparisons I can find (I'm looking at 2020 or 2021):

AF 15 - CGC 4.0 2020: (census = US 3429 graded, UK 64 graded) US copies (4 sales) averaged $21,375 - UK copies (2 sales) averaged $21,000

ASM 1 - (census = US 4152 graded, UK 76 graded) no current UK sales data

Avengers 1 - CGC 5.5 2021: (census = US 4436 graded, UK 77 graded) US copy (Feb '21) = $5000 - UK copy (Jan '21) = $3800

FF 1 - (census = US 2515 graded, UK 24 graded) no current UK sales data

HULK 1 - (census = US 1844 graded, UK 47 graded) no current UK sales data

DD 1 - CGC 7.0 2021: (census = US 4992 graded, UK 63 graded) US copy (Jan '21) = $5050 - UK copy (Jan '21) = $4680

JIM 83 - CGC 3.5 '20/'21: (census = US 2053 graded, UK 27 graded) US copies (7 sales in '20) averaged $5424 - UK copy (March '21) = $8550

ST 110 - CGC 3.5 2020: (census = US 1884 graded, UK 37 graded) US copies (15 sales in '20) averaged $1392 - UK copies (2 sales in '20) = $1097

TOS 39 - (census = US 2353 graded, UK 18 graded) no current UK sales data

TTA 27 - CGC 3.5 2020: (census = US 1103 graded, UK 21 graded) no current comparable sales data 

Xmen 1 - CGC 3.5 2020: (census = US 5170 graded, UK 88 graded) US copy (Oct '20) = $6433 - UK copy (Oct '20) = $4320

Of note.... check out the JIM 83.  The Pence copy sold WAY higher than the US copy (although it sold in March of '21 so it's part of the buying frenzie)

Also of note..... look at how few graded copies there are of pence copies.... TOS 39 only 18 graded pence!!!

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by gadzukes

[nmtg9]

So prices are not that far behind really.

Difficult with so few sales so draw wider conclusions I suppose. 

I think the WWBN sale was an outlier though rather than an indication of where the market is heading generally. 

I love my 9d's 

 

[Get Marwood & I]

7 hours ago, Pantodude said:

I found it.  You are correct.  In Dec 2020, a blue CGC 9.4 UK Price Variant WWBN #32 sold for $13,535 (!), annhilating the prior high of $3,238 set in Nov 2019 for the cents version.  $13,535 was even more than the all-time high for the cents version in 9.6, which recently sold for $12,300 on March 6.  Wow.  Just wow.  But that's a Bronze Age book.  Maybe BA folks are a bit more exuberant than SA folks.    Maybe not.  I like to think of  myself as exuberant.    

I knew I remembereded it right 

And Hulk is always exuberant, Panto 

[Get Marwood & I]

5 hours ago, gadzukes said:

ASM 1 - (census = US 4152 graded, UK 76 graded) no current UK sales data

I've seen some amazing (heh, heh) UK auction results recently Gad - look at this one from earlier this year:

 

 

That can't be higher than a 2.0 and yet with 22.5% premium on top that's nearly $12,000 of your Earth dollars. And it's not an isolated example, either. I surf the auctions looking for the Charltons, hiding in groups usually, but can't help but watch the big guns reaping in these huge results. It's like tulip fever except with comics.

 

[Get Marwood & I]

3 hours ago, nmtg9 said:

I love my 9d's 

Me too. I don't know about you Neil but there just something mystical about the variants. I find in life that wherever there is a large gathering of something, anything in fact, I'm across the road in a much smaller, sometimes solitary group.

Any variant is a thing of beauty. I love my old cents copies. Without them we'd be nowhere. But there's something about those additional quirks that variants bring to the table, that additional journey, that extra printed dimension that has always appealed to me. Whether it's the price, different font, masthead, alternate interior, insert - anything out of the ordinary I just love. And that early period in the sixties where everything was so basic, uncontrolled and sometimes downright illogical. The age before computers and faultless - but somehow soulless - technical finesse. It's all there - the starting out, with an almost casual disregard. Nostalgia, long since forgotten or lost procedures. Elements that just cannot be explained due to the passing of time and lack of curation at the time, leading to endless speculation 60 years later. How did they do it, why did they do that. Brilliant.

And as I've said many times before, if you love comics, if comics are in your blood, how can you look at this book with its totally out of place 9d cover price, open it and see its stark, bold alternate indicia, and not thrill your own pants off?

I will never understand why some people who love comics, don't love comics. 

[gadzukes]

6 hours ago, Get Marwood & I said:

I've seen some amazing (heh, heh) UK auction results recently Gad - look at this one from earlier this year:

 

 

That can't be higher than a 2.0 and yet with 22.5% premium on top that's nearly $12,000 of your Earth dollars. And it's not an isolated example, either. I surf the auctions looking for the Charltons, hiding in groups usually, but can't help but watch the big guns reaping in these huge results. It's like tulip fever except with comics.

 

Marwood, the last US ASM 1 2.0 went for $6234 (which was a big jump in itself from the previous 2.0 prices).  Are you telling me this pence copy went for twice that?  And you have other examples from non-GPA auctions?

The JIM 83 3.5 that I showed in my chart shows the same sort of result.... 

JIM 83 - CGC 3.5 '20/'21: US copies (7 sales in '20) averaged $5424 - UK copy (March '21) = $8550

Is that the direction these Pence copies are going to go?  If so, I am very excited.  I still own the Pence AF15 7.0.  I also own a low grade FF 4 pence (and I used to own the 7.5 TOS 39 but let it go  )

I've always thought that the "rarity" of these pence copies should compensate for any "stigma" about value.  They are simply very hard to find, especially in grade.  

When Darren Adams took out his full page ad in the Overstreet guide a few years ago specifically looking for Pence Key issues I knew something was up, and then when he PM'd me a couple times trying to buy my AF15 pence, I REEEALLLLY knew something was up.  Darren understands the rarity and potential value of the pence copies, and he was trying to scoop them all up before the prices went wacky (which we might be on the cusp of). 

The dawn of the "respect the Pence copy" might soon be upon us.

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by gadzukes

[Get Marwood & I]

26 minutes ago, gadzukes said:

Marwood, the last US ASM 1 2.0 went for $6234 (which was a big jump in itself from the previous 2.0 prices).  Are you telling me this pence copy went for twice that?  And you have other examples from non-GPA auctions?

Yes, it went for £6,700 sterling before 22.5% BP which I thought was ridiculous for a copy in that shape. I've watched a few of these auctions live (online) and the pence keys run riot. People seem to lose their minds. Do you remember that auction I commented on in my pence thread last year, I think it was. You commented on that I believe. I only mention these things when I see them, but everything I'm seeing lately is nuts. 

Before lockdown I went to my first live comic auction and met with one of the well known UK dealers. He had a list with how far he was prepared to bid on most of the lots. Every single lot went way in excess of expectations. We were flabbergasted, frankly. Not just pence stuff mind, lots of US stuff in the piles. You wouldn't believe what I had to bid to get a pile of fairly low key books with one hidden pence gem in it (gem to me, that is - not a high worth book). It was an eye opening experience.

26 minutes ago, gadzukes said:

Is that the direction these Pence copies are going to go?  If so, I am very excited.  I still own the Pence AF15 7.0.

You're a lucky boy Gad. Sell now, make a killing. In a few years, start a thread here about how you wish you hadn't.....

[gadzukes]

38 minutes ago, Get Marwood & I said:

You're a lucky boy Gad. Sell now, make a killing. In a few years, start a thread here about how you wish you hadn't.....

I've always had a dream about being able to get $100k for my pence AF15 7.0.  I'm starting to think that's not a dream any more.

[Get Marwood & I]

1 minute ago, gadzukes said:

I've always had a dream about being able to get $100k for my pence AF15 7.0.  I'm starting to think that's not a dream any more.

Mad world, isn't it....

[Get Marwood & I]

On 3/17/2021 at 6:23 PM, mikeyc67 said:

On the Alan Class reprints my experience also - one of my goals last year was to complete the Marvel superhero covers so have been watching these.

 

What the focaccia!  Just ended at £876.

I don't know what's worse, the fact that my one was better, that I sold it for a comparative tuppenny bit, or the fact that CGC have labelled it a bloody "UK Edition" 

 

Note:

For the benefit of those reading expecting to see commentary on UK Price Variant prices, the above book is NOT a UK Price Variant.

And not a bloody "UK Edition" either. 

[piper]

So 9d was the old money system? What does that equate to in terms of pence and pounds?

[Pantodude]

5 minutes ago, piper said:

So 9d was the old money system? What does that equate to in terms of pence and pounds?

"Old money" means the pounds, shillings and pence system used in the UK until 15 February 1971. On that day Britain switched to the decimal system we use today, where one hundred pence make one pound.   The British system used the abbreviations £ for pound, 's' for shilling and 'd' for pence.  Formerly, there were 12 pence in a shilling and 20 shillings in a pound. So that made: 12 x 20 = 240 pence in a pound.  

Edited March 20, 2021 by Pantodude

[Math Teacher]

In for a pence, in for a pound.

[Pantodude]

A trend has emerged over the past year or so.  Unlike in years past, it is no longer an isolated occurrence when a pence copy sells for more, sometimes a lot more, than a cents version.  And now we have seen this for both the Bronze Age (e.g., Werewolf by Night #32, Eternals #1) and Silver Age keys (see above, including ASM#1).  Another recent example:  a blue 3.5 JIM83 UK sold on 3/13 for $8,550 as a Buy It Now....a measly $50 below the $8,600 price for the next higher grade blue 4.0 JIM83 on 3/6.  So that was a huge premium.  And lest you think that buyer didn’t know he was purchasing a UKPV, the eBay listing title clearly stated “Journey Into Mystery #83 CGC 3.5 OW/W KEY (UK VARIANT)  *1st Appearance of Thor!*”, with the only additional info in the listing being, “A very solid copy of this UK Variant copy!!”.  Note that this was NOT an auction.  The seller asked for a significant premium, and he got it straight away.  Same thing with AMS#9 UK CGC 5.0, which sold on eBay on 3/13 for $1,715 BIN plus $50 s/h from Australia (!), when a regular cents version sold for $1,544 on 3/10.  

And if you think this trend is just with big keys, not so.   A Strange Tales #89 UKPV CGC 3.0 sold on 3/16 for $1,176, when a regular cents version had sold on 2/20 for $995.  And on 3/18, an AMS#12 UKPV CGC 6.5 sold for about the same price that a regular cents version sold on 3/14. 

The trend is also borne out by how the pence copies have been offered of late.  Some sellers emphasize the relative scarcity of UKPVs by providing CGC population stats for UKPVs, often with a pic of the CGC census charts, to justify the premium sought.  

UKPVs are Type 1A cover price variants, like the Canadian and Australian PVs.  In light of the significant premiums achieved by Canadian PVs (which corresponds to the more recent late bronze and early copper books) and Australian PVs (which correspond to even more recent books of 1990s, like New Mutants 98), it really shouldn’t be surprising that UKPVs are heading this way.  Indeed, many believe it is long overdue, particularly for UKPVs of early SA keys that have low census numbers to begin with (compared to other ages).  The perfect storm?  

So what could/should the premium be, if any, going forward?  Canadian PVs for keys fetch 300%-400% premium over regular cents books, if I'm not mistaken.   While the Candian PVs are of course rare, the regular cents version of those Bronze/Copper keys are much more common than the regular cents versions of the early SA keys.  That suggests that, when UKPVs receive the full respect they have long deserved, the multiple should be AT LEAST that much?  UKPVs are nearly impossible to find for any given issue in any grade, let alone a desired grade.  If you think the relative scarcity of UKPVs is being overblown, you should check the CGC census pops of  your favorite keys, then look at the UK variant-specific table below that. 

Somewhere on these boards, Get Marwood &I’s terrific research lists the many Marvel key titles/issues in the Silver Age that produced UKPVs (in short, many of the Marvel titles, including most of the key issues, had UKPVs).  Now try to find ANY of those UKPVs, in ANY grade, on eBay (even UK's ebay at https://www.ebay.co.uk/) or anywhere else.   Good luck.  That says tons right there.   

A few lucky bums recently posted pics of a nice mid-grade pence ASM#3, FF#1, and FF#49 on these boards.  Just knowing how rare they are is a treat.  I have a few pence books and a Star Wars #1 35-cent, and they all elicit the special feelings to which Get Marwood &I alluded above. 
 

Edited March 24, 2021 by Pantodude

[Tghutcn]

Honestly I don’t mind paying the same amount for both but if someone wants to list a pence variant lower out of snobbery then that’s fine with me that’s there own fault 

[gadzukes]

On 3/24/2021 at 8:28 AM, Pantodude said:

A trend has emerged over the past year or so.  Unlike in years past, it is no longer an isolated occurrence when a pence copy sells for more, sometimes a lot more, than a cents version.  And now we have seen this for both the Bronze Age (e.g., Werewolf by Night #32, Eternals #1) and Silver Age keys (see above, including ASM#1).  Another recent example:  a blue 3.5 JIM83 UK sold on 3/13 for $8,550 as a Buy It Now....a measly $50 below the $8,600 price for the next higher grade blue 4.0 JIM83 on 3/6.  So that was a huge premium.  And lest you think that buyer didn’t know he was purchasing a UKPV, the eBay listing title clearly stated “Journey Into Mystery #83 CGC 3.5 OW/W KEY (UK VARIANT)  *1st Appearance of Thor!*”, with the only additional info in the listing being, “A very solid copy of this UK Variant copy!!”.  Note that this was NOT an auction.  The seller asked for a significant premium, and he got it straight away.  Same thing with AMS#9 UK CGC 5.0, which sold on eBay on 3/13 for $1,715 BIN plus $50 s/h from Australia (!), when a regular cents version sold for $1,544 on 3/10.  

And if you think this trend is just with big keys, not so.   A Strange Tales #89 UKPV CGC 3.0 sold on 3/16 for $1,176, when a regular cents version had sold on 2/20 for $995.  And on 3/18, an AMS#12 UKPV CGC 6.5 sold for about the same price that a regular cents version sold on 3/14. 

The trend is also borne out by how the pence copies have been offered of late.  Some sellers emphasize the relative scarcity of UKPVs by providing CGC population stats for UKPVs, often with a pic of the CGC census charts, to justify the premium sought.  

UKPVs are Type 1A cover price variants, like the Canadian and Australian PVs.  In light of the significant premiums achieved by Canadian PVs (which corresponds to the more recent late bronze and early copper books) and Australian PVs (which correspond to even more recent books of 1990s, like New Mutants 98), it really shouldn’t be surprising that UKPVs are heading this way.  Indeed, many believe it is long overdue, particularly for UKPVs of early SA keys that have low census numbers to begin with (compared to other ages).  The perfect storm?  

So what could/should the premium be, if any, going forward?  Canadian PVs for keys fetch 300%-400% premium over regular cents books, if I'm not mistaken.   While the Candian PVs are of course rare, the regular cents version of those Bronze/Copper keys are much more common than the regular cents versions of the early SA keys.  That suggests that, when UKPVs receive the full respect they have long deserved, the multiple should be AT LEAST that much?  UKPVs are nearly impossible to find for any given issue in any grade, let alone a desired grade.  If you think the relative scarcity of UKPVs is being overblown, you should check the CGC census pops of  your favorite keys, then look at the UK variant-specific table below that. 

Somewhere on these boards, Get Marwood &I’s terrific research lists the many Marvel key titles/issues in the Silver Age that produced UKPVs (in short, many of the Marvel titles, including most of the key issues, had UKPVs).  Now try to find ANY of those UKPVs, in ANY grade, on eBay (even UK's ebay at https://www.ebay.co.uk/) or anywhere else.   Good luck.  That says tons right there.   

A few lucky bums recently posted pics of a nice mid-grade pence ASM#3, FF#1, and FF#49 on these boards.  Just knowing how rare they are is a treat.  I have a few pence books and a Star Wars #1 35-cent, and they all elicit the special feelings to which Get Marwood &I alluded above. 
 

Great post Pantodude.  You did some solid analysis.  I'm hoping the "respect" trend continues.  And I love the sound of "premium pricing".