Is X-Men #1 now a top 3 SA book?
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the thread doesnt specify whether he means top 3 in terms of pricing, or in terms of significance within the marvel comics universe. 

clearly xmen1 is in the top 3 now in terms of value based on the latest sales, or at least very close to it. seems to have passed hulk1 and is way past other keys including the dc 'keys' in terms of value.

whether it's top 3 in terms of significance is totally subjective and will vary from person to person. after the king, AF15, everything else is pretty variable these days. if the mcu ff movie is not popular or flops, that book will continue to lose ground to other SA keys as it has for years now. ultimately it does seem that possible success of marvel xmen movies will ensure this book stays very high on the list. it certainly has more graded copies than the earlier marvel SA keys (hulk1, ff1, af15, jim83) but as we have seen with hulk 181 for decades now, it's about supply AND demand. demand for xmen 1 should remain strong for awhile, i expect.

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3 minutes ago, alexgross.com said:

the thread doesnt specify whether he means top 3 in terms of pricing, or in terms of significance within the marvel comics universe. 

clearly xmen1 is in the top 3 now in terms of value based on the latest sales, or at least very close to it. seems to have passed hulk1 and is way past other keys including the dc 'keys' in terms of value.

whether it's top 3 in terms of significance is totally subjective and will vary from person to person. after the king, AF15, everything else is pretty variable these days. if the mcu ff movie is not popular or flops, that book will continue to lose ground to other SA keys as it has for years now. ultimately it does seem that possible success of marvel xmen movies will ensure this book stays very high on the list. it certainly has more graded copies than the earlier marvel SA keys (hulk1, ff1, af15, jim83) but as we have seen with hulk 181 for decades now, it's about supply AND demand. demand for xmen 1 should remain strong for awhile, i expect.

you nailed it with your last sentence,  "supply and demand"... Just because something may be more common . doesnt mean it wont hold value.  And the demand for X-Men will always be very high.

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6 hours ago, Pantodude said:

Put in perspective, there haven't been enough FF1 or IH1 sales recently compared to XM1 in the grades in question. Even so, it's clear that FF1 and IH1 have been ascending, too.  It could be that FF1 and/or IH1 eventually retake the lead in all grades, especially in grades 4.0 up, where IH1s are more difficult to find. FF1 and IH1 are very popular with relatively few to go around.  I expect all of these books to keep rising, but time has a way of correcting price imbalances before too long, so FF1 and/or IH1 may pop here and there.     

I have the same problem with valuing my collection. I have a JiM #83 CGC 3.0.

JiM #83 4.0 - $8,600 - March, 2021
JiM #83 3.5 - $6,025 - November, 2020
JiM #83 3.0 - $4,427 - September, 2020
JiM #83 2.5 - $4,726 - December, 2020
JiM #83 2.0 - $5,100 - March, 2021

So, I believe that it is safe to say that my copy lies somewhere between $5,100 and $8,600, probably about in the middle of that range.

JiM #83 4.0 - $2,150 per point
JiM #83 2.0 - $2,550 per point
Taking the average of these two would result in $2,350 per point. So, this would mean that my copy would be approximately $7,150. Is the best way to determine its value? I honestly don't know.

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All right, Spider-Man, FF, and X-Men, I get. They're all excellent innovative characters. AF15 is bar none the most important Silver Age comic. And FF1 essentially created the Marvel Universe as we know it, so that is one of the biggest keys ever. But the Incredible Hulk? I mean, shouldn't Robert Louis Stevenson get at least partial credit for him? It's a blatant ripoff of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. I have to think that if copyright law and our current sue happy culture were what they are now in the early 60s, that Marvel would have had a heck of a lawsuit on their hands.

In terms of historical importance, sure, the Hulk has been a major cash cow for Marvel and has become an iconic character in our culture. And IH1 has proven to be a major SA key for decades, and certainly will be for the foreseeable future. But he is, perhaps, the most unoriginal of all the major comic characters to come out of the era. I feel that X1 has become a more important book than IH1 over the years. In fact, one could argue that the most important IH book has become 181, and that is so because of an X character, not the big guy.

Just my two cents, I could be wrong, but I've always felt that way about the Hulk.

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On the other hand, one could also argue that GSX1 is more important than X1. Due to the fact that X was on its last legs and issuing reprints prior to its release, and the fact that most of the major X characters who are iconic today were not introduced until GSX1 and beyond, perhaps X1 doesn't quite deserve the pedestal of top 3 Silvers. 

I don't think anyone can mount a successful argument against AF15 of FF1 being the top 2, but that number 3 position sure makes for an interesting discussion. 

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3 minutes ago, profholt82 said:

On the other hand, one could also argue that GSX1 is more important than X1. Due to the fact that X was on its last legs and issuing reprints prior to its release, and the fact that most of the major X characters who are iconic today were not introduced until GSX1 and beyond, perhaps X1 doesn't quite deserve the pedestal of top 3 Silvers. 

I don't think anyone can mount a successful argument against AF15 of FF1 being the top 2, but that number 3 position sure makes for an interesting discussion. 

as a kid who in the 80s worshipped the xmen, i always wanted gsx1 and xmen94, but the original xmen #1 from 1963 was the holy grail to me, in spite of the fact that almost none of those guys were in the claremont byrne austin team. i think the original book is always going to be the bigger key. 

 

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9 minutes ago, profholt82 said:

All right, Spider-Man, FF, and X-Men, I get. They're all excellent innovative characters. AF15 is bar none the most important Silver Age comic. And FF1 essentially created the Marvel Universe as we know it, so that is one of the biggest keys ever. But the Incredible Hulk? I mean, shouldn't Robert Louis Stevenson get at least partial credit for him? It's a blatant ripoff of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. I have to think that if copyright law and our current sue happy culture were what they are now in the early 60s, that Marvel would have had a heck of a lawsuit on their hands.

In terms of historical importance, sure, the Hulk has been a major cash cow for Marvel and has become an iconic character in our culture. And IH1 has proven to be a major SA key for decades, and certainly will be for the foreseeable future. But he is, perhaps, the most unoriginal of all the major comic characters to come out of the era. I feel that X1 has become a more important book than IH1 over the years. In fact, one could argue that the most important IH book has become 181, and that is so because of an X character, not the big guy.

Just my two cents, I could be wrong, but I've always felt that way about the Hulk.

but his question is silver age comic books in general,  not just Marvel, so you have to consider SC4, which is more important than XM1

so to summarize my opinion

in term of influence, XM1 is not Top-3

in term of monetary value, no XM1 is not Top-3

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10 hours ago, profholt82 said:

But the Incredible Hulk? I mean, shouldn't Robert Louis Stevenson get at least partial credit for him? It's a blatant ripoff of Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde. I have to think that if copyright law and our current sue happy culture were what they are now in the early 60s, that Marvel would have had a heck of a lawsuit on their hands.

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!   Once again, someone must address whatever this is.  

No offense, but did you even read Stevenson's Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, or IH#1?  It seems like familiarity with one or the other must be lacking for your post to make sense (at least to me).  On that assumption, here we go.

Dr. Jekyll, a medical doctor, intentionally expiremented on himself to find a way to vent his inner demons, then intentionally used a serum to become Mr. Hyde at will as an outlet for his dark side while also being able to maintain his stature in good society, until eventually Mr. Hyde manifested whenever Dr. Jekyll showed signs of physical or moral weakness (Mr. Hyde no longer needed the serum to be released).  Stevenson never says exactly what Mr. Hyde does, generally saying that it is something of an evil and lustful nature, but details emerge including the murder of Sir Danvers Carew for no apparent reason and engaging with prostitutes and seeking out violence for thrills with no remorse.  As evil as he was, Mr. Hyde dressed as Dr. Jekyll, so always wore a suit, and actually mingled with people regularly.  The point being that Dr. Jekyll intentionally unleashed Mr. Hyde onto the world for his own selfish reasons.  

If you haven't already, please now read some early Hulk comics?  Did you see the part where Dr. Banner was a scientist, not a medical doctor?  Did you catch the part where, following his accidental exposure to gamma rays saving the life of Rick Jones during the detonation of an experimental bomb, Dr. Banner is physically transformed into the Hulk when subjected to emotional stress?  Did you also notice where Dr. Banner cannot control when he becomes the Hulk, desperately tries to avoid becoming the Hulk, and otherwise tries to keep the Hulk away from others?  And did you notice that, unlike Mr. Hyde's constantly dark and unredeemingly violent nature, the Hulk is invariably either a hero or anti-hero?   And hopefully you noticed that the Hulk wants to be left alone and never seeks out violence, and even when forced to defend himself, never tries to kill innocent folks?  Oh and the bit about the Hulk always running around half naked.  And being all gray (before becoming all green).  And, well you get the picture. 

So Hulk was no ripoff, let alone a blatant ripoff, of Mr. Hyde.  And you actually thought copyright!  Yikes.  A superficial similarity (based on the presence of a darker alter ego) a ripoff not make.  (thumbsu  

Edited by Pantodude
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2 hours ago, IronMan_Cave said:

but his question is silver age comic books in general,  not just Marvel, so you have to consider SC4, which is more important than XM1

so to summarize my opinion

in term of influence, XM1 is not Top-3

in term of monetary value, no XM1 is not Top-3

showcase 4 may be the most significant sa book because it is the first superhero book of the silver age, but it holds no significance for a vast number of collectors who do not care much about dc books. thats also why it has not budged in value for many years. xmen1 is of far more importance to far more collectors.

in terms of value, xmen1 is essentially tied with sc4 and quickly moving to pass it: 

xmen 5.5 sold for 25k recently, sc4 gpa on that grade is 26k. xmen 1 multiple 7.5 copies have sold recently for close to 60k, sc4 7.0 gpa says 44k. 

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1 hour ago, Pantodude said:

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!   Once again, someone must address whatever this is.  

No offense, but did you even read Stevenson's Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, or IH#1?  It seems like familiarity with one or the other must be lacking for your post to make sense (at least to me).  On that assumption, here we go.

Dr. Jekyll, a medical doctor, intentionally expiremented on himself to find a way to vent his inner demons, then intentionally used a serum to become Mr. Hyde at will as an outlet for his dark side while also being able to maintain his stature in good society, until eventually Mr. Hyde manifested whenever Dr. Jekyll showed signs of physical or moral weakness (Mr. Hyde no longer needed the serum to be released).  Stevenson never says exactly what Mr. Hyde does, generally saying that it is something of an evil and lustful nature, but details emerge including the murder of Sir Danvers Carew for no apparent reason and engaging with prostitutes and seeking out violence for thrills with no remorse.  As evil as he was, Mr. Hyde dressed as Dr. Jekyll, so always wore a suit, and actually mingled with people regularly.  The point being that Dr. Jekyll intentionally unleashed Mr. Hyde onto the world for his own selfish reasons.  

If you haven't already, please now read some early Hulk comics?  Did you see the part where Dr. Banner was a scientist, not a medical doctor?  Did you catch the part where, following his accidental exposure to gamma rays saving the life of Rick Jones during the detonation of an experimental bomb, Dr. Banner is physically transformed into the Hulk when subjected to emotional stress?  Did you also notice where Dr. Banner cannot control when he becomes the Hulk, desperately tries to avoid becoming the Hulk, and otherwise tries to keep the Hulk away from others?  And did you notice that, unlike Mr. Hyde's constantly dark and unredeemingly violent nature, the Hulk is invariably either a hero or anti-hero?   And hopefully you noticed that the Hulk wants to be left alone and never seeks out violence, and even when forced to defend himself, never tries to kill innocent folks?  Oh and the bit about the Hulk always running around half naked.  And being all gray (before becoming all green).  And, well you get the picture. 

So Hulk was no ripoff, let alone a blatant ripoff, of Mr. Hyde.  Any you actually thought copyright!  Yikes.  A superficial similarity (based on the presense of a darker alter ego) a ripoff not make.  (thumbsu  

I totally agree. 

At one point Stan referenced Dr Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I can't remember the exact quote, but it inspired the Hulk or something like that.  

But inspiration is a long way from a blatant rip off.  Mr. Hyde was an evil human who carefully and intentionally did terrible things.  The hulk isn't evil, though he may not always be able to control himself from doing bad things. 

 

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The interesting thing to me is that X-men 1 is recording these crazy sales despite having a blue label census that is double (FF1) and nearly triple (IH1) in size to these other 2 books.  This speaks to the extreme demand side of things obviously.  It might also suggest that FF1 and IH1 are just lagging behind, and if the growth in the comic book hobby continues, when lack of supply is truly appreciated by buyers, then prices in IH1 and FF1 will spike. 

I don't subscribe to this notion that once everyone starts going out again, hobbies and thus prices of comics will suffer.  Certainly staying home helped hobbies from an interest and monetary standpoint, but seems to me there are multiple factors going on including investors (likely globally) looking for a safe haven in this world of endless money printing.   I also don't think bitcoiners have been selling en masse to buy comics.  Sure maybe some people are taking profits from btc, tesla, amazon, etc but I know many people who are holding BTC and ETH because of the money printing.  Bitcoin is a lot more liquid than comics....can buy or sell at the click of a mouse.  A correction is likely to come, and will likely coincide with stock market correction....but I'm not sure about a crash.  

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1 hour ago, Pantodude said:

Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in!   Once again, someone must address whatever this is.  

No offense, but did you even read Stevenson's Strange Case of Dr Jekyll and Mr Hyde, or IH#1?  It seems like familiarity with one or the other must be lacking for your post to make sense (at least to me).  On that assumption, here we go.

Dr. Jekyll, a medical doctor, intentionally expiremented on himself to find a way to vent his inner demons, then intentionally used a serum to become Mr. Hyde at will as an outlet for his dark side while also being able to maintain his stature in good society, until eventually Mr. Hyde manifested whenever Dr. Jekyll showed signs of physical or moral weakness (Mr. Hyde no longer needed the serum to be released).  Stevenson never says exactly what Mr. Hyde does, generally saying that it is something of an evil and lustful nature, but details emerge including the murder of Sir Danvers Carew for no apparent reason and engaging with prostitutes and seeking out violence for thrills with no remorse.  As evil as he was, Mr. Hyde dressed as Dr. Jekyll, so always wore a suit, and actually mingled with people regularly.  The point being that Dr. Jekyll intentionally unleashed Mr. Hyde onto the world for his own selfish reasons.  

If you haven't already, please now read some early Hulk comics?  Did you see the part where Dr. Banner was a scientist, not a medical doctor?  Did you catch the part where, following his accidental exposure to gamma rays saving the life of Rick Jones during the detonation of an experimental bomb, Dr. Banner is physically transformed into the Hulk when subjected to emotional stress?  Did you also notice where Dr. Banner cannot control when he becomes the Hulk, desperately tries to avoid becoming the Hulk, and otherwise tries to keep the Hulk away from others?  And did you notice that, unlike Mr. Hyde's constantly dark and unredeemingly violent nature, the Hulk is invariably either a hero or anti-hero?   And hopefully you noticed that the Hulk wants to be left alone and never seeks out violence, and even when forced to defend himself, never tries to kill innocent folks?  Oh and the bit about the Hulk always running around half naked.  And being all gray (before becoming all green).  And, well you get the picture. 

So Hulk was no ripoff, let alone a blatant ripoff, of Mr. Hyde.  Any you actually thought copyright!  Yikes.  A superficial similarity (based on the presense of a darker alter ego) a ripoff not make.  (thumbsu  

 

Ha! I admit that my hyperbole got the best of me there, so pardon me. I've just never considered Hulk 1 to be on the same level as AF15 and FF1, and seeing how many here did apparently triggered my snarky side, and I went a bit overboard in my description. You certainly make some very good points. I have never taken more than a cursory interest in classic Hulk books, but your passionate breakdown of the early years makes me want to.

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One thing seems clear, at least for now -- the Big 4 are AF 15, FF 1, Hulk 1, and X-Men 1 in terms of dollar value.  

What's the Next 4?  ASM1, TOS 39, JIM 83, and...?  (I don't place as much 'key value' on ASM 1 as others do, but in terms of value it's clearly in this group.)

Dan

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29 minutes ago, Drummy said:

One thing seems clear, at least for now -- the Big 4 are AF 15, FF 1, Hulk 1, and X-Men 1 in terms of dollar value.  

What's the Next 4?  ASM1, TOS 39, JIM 83, and...?  (I don't place as much 'key value' on ASM 1 as others do, but in terms of value it's clearly in this group.)

Dan

SC4 would be in the next tier monetarily. 

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3 hours ago, yogi_bear13 said:

SC4 would be in the next tier monetarily. 

Right, SC4 price-wise is in that 5-8 spot somewhere, closer to 5 than 8.  But it seems like it should be among the top four, if not top two.  

Importance-wise, SC4 should be #1 to all fans of the Silver Age.  SC4 not only ushered in the Silver Age, it arguably saved the entire comic book industry from complete collapse.  So SC4 is to the entire Silver Age (DC, Marvel, Gold Key, Charlton Comics, etc. ) what FF1 is to just Marvel's Silver Age. That should be beyond dispute and makes clear that SC4 has long been undervalued.  That iconic cover alone reaks megakey. 

So why has SC4's valuation remained stagnant in recent years?  It's easy to point to DC's tepid box office activity, which sadly suggests that the hobby is too vulnerable to flippers and spec-chasers.  SC4 is too historically significant for that BS, much like Action Comics 1 for the Golden Age.  Had SC4 been a Marvel book . . . .   Maybe that's it, but I wonder if something else is going on, too.    

It's possible that many of the folks buying the other megakeys in recent years are not traditional collectors and thus not aware of, or as enthralled by, SC4's historical significance.  Boardies have suspected that the hobby experienced a large influx of new participants since the start of the pandemic.  Less aware of comic book history, they likely focused on books trending based on current spec or even prominence during the last decade (in other words, Marvel titles), to the detriment of SC4 even more so than pre-pandemic.

Another possibility is that big spenders of late are not your traditional deep-pocket types, who typically sought collectibles worthy of display, so basically trophy items, from art, to fancy cars, to old guns, and yes vintage comic books.  It seems books nowadays are tucked aways in storage more so than in the past, making comic book keys less like trophies to be displayed.  Nothing wrong with that, but collectors who display their SA megakeys, say on a single long shelf, can't possibly overlook the gaping hole caused by the absence of a SC4.  That should be the FIRST book on any such shelf, and what a shelf that would be.  Over time, even those key collectors who tuck their books away eventually evaluate their haul.  So even they should eventually FEEL the hole in their SC4-less collection, because SC4 will always be a big key for all fans of the SA.  

I expect that, sooner or later, SC4 will play catch up.  There are only 366 universal SC4s!  So all it will take is a handful of folks to seek them out at the same time, and SC4 will make up for lost time, possibly by leaps and bounds.  That is because the folks who seek out SC4 will not need to be Flash fans, or DC fans, just true SA fans.  And because there are so few of these books, they will be more likely to remain in long-term PCs.  They are rarely offered for sale as it is, and come to think of it, that too could explain why SC4 prices have yet to take off.  It's not in the limelight like other keys with multiple sales piggy-backing off eachother over a short period, so not an ideal flip candidate.  

Edited by Pantodude
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sighs.....this list is only 10 days old from that high profile Heritage Signature Apr-1 auction results

 

AF15 CGC7.5 = 156K

ASM1 CGC9.2 = 150K

AVE1 CGC9.2 = 63K

BATMAN1 CGC5.0 = 360K

CA100 CGC9.9 = 65K

DD1 CGC9.6 = 150K

DC227 CGC9.4 = 138K

FF1 CGC9.0 = 264K

FF1 CGC8.5 = 132K

FF5 CGC9.4 = 138K

FF12 CGC9.4 = 31.2K

FF50 CGC9.6 = 28.8K

FF52 CGC9.6 = 50.4K

JIM83 CGC9.0 = 87K

SC4 CGC8.0 = 78K

TOS39 CBCS9.4 = 132K

TMNT1 CGC 9.6 = 66K

WW1 CGC6.5 = 58.8K

XMEN1 CGC8.5 = 78K

XMEN94 CGC9.8 = 63K

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17 hours ago, alexgross.com said:

showcase 4 may be the most significant sa book because it is the first superhero book of the silver age, but it holds no significance for a vast number of collectors who do not care much about dc books. thats also why it has not budged in value for many years. xmen1 is of far more importance to far more collectors.

in terms of value, xmen1 is essentially tied with sc4 and quickly moving to pass it: 

xmen 5.5 sold for 25k recently, sc4 gpa on that grade is 26k. xmen 1 multiple 7.5 copies have sold recently for close to 60k, sc4 7.0 gpa says 44k. 

A 3.0 just sold on the boards for around $14,500, significantly higher than the current 90 day average. It's still climbing well in all grades, looks like.

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5 hours ago, Pantodude said:

So why has SC4's valuation remained stagnant in recent years?  It's easy to point to DC's tepid box office activity, which sadly suggests that the hobby is too vulnerable to flippers and spec-chasers.  SC4 is too historically significant for that BS, much like Action Comics 1 for the Golden Age. 

Did SC #4 get any kind of bump when the Flash TV show began?

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5 hours ago, Pantodude said:

I expect that, sooner or later, SC4 will play catch up.  There are only 366 universal SC4s!  So all it will take is a handful of folks to seek them out at the same time, and SC4 will make up for lost time, possibly by leaps and bounds.  That is because the folks who seek out SC4 will not need to be Flash fans, or DC fans, just true SA fans.  And because there are so few of these books, they will be more likely to remain in long-term PCs.  They are rarely offered for sale as it is, and come to think of it, that too could explain why SC4 prices have yet to take off.  It's not in the limelight like other keys with multiple sales piggy-backing off eachother over a short period, so not an ideal flip candidate.  

I thought the same thing when I bought Famous Funnies #1 twenty years ago. I dropped that for a Marvel key.

 

15 minutes ago, Math Teacher said:

Did SC #4 get any kind of bump when the Flash TV show began?

Nope. Not the 90s version and not the current CW version.

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