Should I wait on Amazing Spider-Man 300 2 2

[valiantman]

12 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

40 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Just to clarify, who is doing the lying about newsstands?

There are, unfortunately, multiple prominent sources of misinformation online, the worst that I've seen being Benjamin Nobel's site. It's not just lies, but faulty assumptions and terrible logic. And the garbage spreads, including people bringing it here.

Since I'm the only one posting lately, I just wanted you to point out to those reading that you aren't saying that I'm the one who is lying.  I agree, those people saying that newsstands are 1% of the print run or whatever aren't using data... because the data says 7% or 10% or 15% and they should be saying what the data says... not quoting "experts" who don't cite their data.

12 minutes ago, Lazyboy said:

Quote

Secondly, it's hard to name a collectible in any industry, comics or otherwise, which didn't have some time period when it was worthless (or nothing special).  The reason Golden Age books have a lot of value is that they were literally thrown away 90% of the time, and read-to-death if they weren't tossed first.  We care today because they didn't survive in high grade, and they didn't survive in high grade because there was a time that no one cared.

The reason most GA books have value (and the only reason some of them have any value) is because they had to survive through WW2 and Wertham, not because everybody threw them away the second they were done reading them. Plus more time for attrition and damage, even if people were trying to save them.

Yes, after 70+ years, there are all kinds of reasons the books didn't survive.  Your specific examples (WW2 and Wertham) happened in the first couple of years/decades.  When I was a kid, the direct edition comic books were at the comic shop in bags and boards, and the newsstand issues were at the grocery store bent over with mist from the vegetables next to the magazine racks.  ASM #300 newsstands didn't have to go through WW2 and Wertham, but they did have to survive grubby hands and produce hoses more often than the direct editions on the shelf at the "don't touch the books" shop.

Edited April 7, 2021 by valiantman

[valiantman]

5 minutes ago, Math Teacher said:

I suppose that you are right that I don't agree with it. If people want to search for newsstand copies because there are fewer copies, more power to them. The same goes for price variants. It's not my place to tell other people how to collect. I am not going to be concerned about newsstand copies or price variants when it comes to my collection.

Fair enough, but if you were in the market for Issue Comics #123, and there were two copies (same cover, same contents) in the same condition, but it was known that one of them is found in that condition about 10% as often as the other one... and they were the same price... would you not consider picking up the 10% version instead of the 90% version?   It's true that for decades they DID have the same price.

Over in the poll that's running right now, about 25% of people say they would pay more for newsstand... and the majority wouldn't pay any extra.  I get that.  But we're back to math now...

Because more than 10% of people would pick up the 10% version when they think about it, the prices simply can't stay the same forever.

Edited April 7, 2021 by valiantman

[Math Teacher]

12 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Fair enough, but if you were in the market for Issue Comics #123, and there were two copies (same cover, same contents) in the same condition, but it was known that one of them is found in that condition about 10% as often as the other one... and they were the same price... would you not consider picking up the 10% version instead of the 90% version?   It's true that for decades they DID have the same price.

I highlighted the most relevant part of your statement. If they were the same price, then I would probably pick up the 10% version. Same with price variants. However, they are not the same price. And I, along with many others according to your poll, am not willing to pay extra money for a newsstand version or a price variant version.

I understand the math you are describing. And I believe that I have reached the point of "beating a dead horse." I think that I have made it clear about how I feel about newsstand/price variant editions. I hope that no one thinks that I have been pontificating about what others should do. Everyone should collect in the way that is best for them. And my way of collecting entails that I am not willing to chase after newsstand/price variant copies if it involves paying more for them.

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, Math Teacher said:

I highlighted the most relevant part of your statement. If they were the same price, then I would probably pick up the 10% version. Same with price variants. However, they are not the same price. And I, along with many others according to your poll, am not willing to pay extra money for a newsstand version or a price variant version.

Exactly.  The majority of people may never pay an extra cent for a newsstand or price variant, but if the minority who do is greater than the supply... then the prices will go up. The majority will see this, disagree with it, and still refuse to pay any extra for newsstands or price variants.  That's true, and may always be the case.  The price will still be higher if the minority is greater than the supply.   The majority always rules, except when it doesn't. 

[ADAMANTIUM]

1 hour ago, Lazyboy said:

There are, unfortunately, multiple prominent sources of misinformation online, the worst that I've seen being Benjamin Nobel's site. It's not just lies, but faulty assumptions and terrible logic. And the garbage spreads, including people bringing it here.

The reason most GA books have value (and the only reason some of them have any value) is because they had to survive through WW2 and Wertham, not because everybody threw them away the second they were done reading them. Plus more time for attrition and damage, even if people were trying to save them.

see this is sometimes true of a lot of things, and every time the topic is discussed, we "need" to and perhaps rightly so, explain it all again, which just takes the fun out of it if you ask me. Lot's of good info with @valiantman and it's not all summed up every time which gets even more misinfo out there when threads get locked and just seems as contention. I definitely don't know a fraction of anything  but I do try to absorb points, when concessions are made that this or that is the "real" info, which is hard to discern when the topics sometimes get to wild ha! which is fun too, but.... cause there always is one  

1 hour ago, Math Teacher said:

I suppose that you are right that I don't agree with it. If people want to search for newsstand copies because there are fewer copies, more power to them. The same goes for price variants. It's not my place to tell other people how to collect. I am not going to be concerned about newsstand copies or price variants when it comes to my collection.

that's a perfectly valid preference, understanding it is the main thing to be able to give an honest opinion and state it as such, we get so many threads with questions, and as everyone is genuinely interested in the matter good or bad, it all gets jumbled. Taking the fun out of it sometimes, which leads to other's not wanting to enjoy the niche  but understanding or noticing a trend isn't all bad I wouldn't think  

Edited April 7, 2021 by ADAMANTIUM

[ADAMANTIUM]

 

fyi I wasn't calling anyone out, just explaining to @Math Teacher the usual course when threads turn to this subject. All good here, but I've been guilty too of a little too much passion, part of the explanation to new to newsie's perhaps?

Edited April 7, 2021 by ADAMANTIUM
extra too!

[silverseeker]

2 hours ago, valiantman said:

Do you really not understand it, or do you not agree with it?

Because if you really don't understand it, I don't mind explaining.  No opinions, no preferences, just facts.  When there are identical covers and insides on two comic books, but one of them exists in fewer copies... it tends to have a higher individual price.  That's all there is to it.  It gets more complex quickly, if the fewer copies book is a reprint... should a lower quantity reprint cost more than a first printing?  That's opinions, that's preferences, etc.

But simply stated, if all other things are equal - same printing, same contents, same paper, same cover - all the important aspects of the comic book are constants (since you're "Math Teacher", you know what I mean by constants), then the only variable is quantity.  The market responds to all the variables for every comic books, but since most of the variables are actually constants... the market is basically just responding to quantity when it comes to 35-cent variants or newsstands or any other "same printing, same contents, same paper, same cover" situations.

Unless I'm mistaken, I find it interesting that one area of the hobby where this does not appear to hold true is with Pence copies...I personally don't collect them, but think they're more rare than Cents copies?

I guess this goes back to supply and demand...the demand is just not there for Pence copies, hence the lower prices.

[valiantman]

28 minutes ago, silverseeker said:

2 hours ago, valiantman said:

Do you really not understand it, or do you not agree with it?

Because if you really don't understand it, I don't mind explaining.  No opinions, no preferences, just facts.  When there are identical covers and insides on two comic books, but one of them exists in fewer copies... it tends to have a higher individual price.  That's all there is to it.  It gets more complex quickly, if the fewer copies book is a reprint... should a lower quantity reprint cost more than a first printing?  That's opinions, that's preferences, etc.

But simply stated, if all other things are equal - same printing, same contents, same paper, same cover - all the important aspects of the comic book are constants (since you're "Math Teacher", you know what I mean by constants), then the only variable is quantity.  The market responds to all the variables for every comic books, but since most of the variables are actually constants... the market is basically just responding to quantity when it comes to 35-cent variants or newsstands or any other "same printing, same contents, same paper, same cover" situations.

Unless I'm mistaken, I find it interesting that one area of the hobby where this does not appear to hold true is with Pence copies...I personally don't collect them, but think they're more rare than Cents copies?

I guess this goes back to supply and demand...the demand is just not there for Pence copies, hence the lower prices.

You are correct.  The most obvious difference between direct/newsstand and cents/pence is that both the direct/newsstand books were intended for "home audiences" (that is, U.S. comics for U.S. audiences), while the cents/pence comics have U.S. cents comics for U.S. audiences and U.S. pence comics for U.K. audiences.  That is a disadvantage for pence copies from a "purist collector" standpoint (U.S. for U.S.), however, the other disadvantages for pence copies are based on false information.  Some pence copies are not reprints.  That's decades of false information.  We know which pence copies were printed in the U.S. on the same machines as the cents copies.  That's not always understood.

Combining the information that we now have about cents/pence with the CGC census numbers for cents/pence, and it is probably just a matter of time before collectors seeking pence copies will exceed the supply.  When that happens, I expect the majority of collectors to disagree, to boldly proclaim that they'll never spend one extra penny (or pence) on a pence copy, some collectors will repeat the same "purist" argument above, and a few to continue to spread misinformation about when-and-where the books were originally printed.  At any rate, the majority of copies in collections will remain non-pence, therefore, it will always be in the best interest of the majority to downplay any perceived differences which favor the books they don't have and can't easily obtain... and we'll be right back where we are now with the ASM #300 direct/newsstand discussion.

Edited April 7, 2021 by valiantman

[ADAMANTIUM]

2 minutes ago, valiantman said:

You are correct.  The most obvious difference between direct/newsstand and cents/pence is that both the direct/newsstand books were intended for "home audiences" (that is, U.S. comics for U.S. audiences), while the cents/pence comics have U.S. comics for U.S. audiences and U.S. comics for U.K. audiences.  That is a disadvantage from a "purist collector" standpoint, however, the other disadvantages for pence copies are based on false information.  Some pence copies are not reprints.  That's decades of false information.  Most pence copies were printed in the U.S. on the same machines as the cents copies.  That's not always understood.

Combining the information that we now have about cents/pence with the CGC census numbers for cents/pence, and it is probably just a matter of time before collectors seeking pence copies will exceed the supply.  When that happens, I expect the majority of collectors to disagree, some to repeat the same "purist" argument above, and a few to continue to spread misinformation about when-and-where the books were originally printed.  At any rate, the majority of copies in collections will remain non-pence, therefore, it will always be in the best interest of the majority to downplay any perceived differences which favor the books they don't have and can't easily obtain... and we'll be right back where we are now with the ASM #300 direct/newsstand discussion.

yes indeed, par for the course, too true  

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I am known to do whop, also known for the flintstone flop, @valiantman gettin' bids on the crop!

 

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, ADAMANTIUM said:

yes indeed, par for the course, too true  

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I am known to do whop, also known for the flintstone flop, @valiantman gettin' bids on the crop!

 

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[musicmeta]

17 hours ago, Math Teacher said:

@ADAMANTIUM stated in an earlier post that there were discussions about direct/newsstand editions back when I joined in November, 2018. I don't remember them, but if Adamantium says they were going on, I am more than willing to accept his word.

So, if is the case, it didn't just start with this crazy market of the last 3 - 4 months.

Like I said, I have an ASM #300 CGC 9.4 direct edition. Frankly, I don't give a rat's rear-end if it is a direct edition or a newsstand edition. I am more interested in the cover and the insides; I really don't care what is or isn't in the UPC box.

Same here "but" if I can pick up a NS copy of  <insert book and issue # here> for the same price as the direct edition ALL other factors being equal..i.e. centering, creases, PQ..etc.., then sure I'll go with the NS copy because it is more rare.
Like you, I have a  ASM#300 in 9.4 direct and I'm perfectly happy with it.  (Not going to sell it and with some more money "just" to buy a NS 9.4).  

[BigLeagueCHEW]

On 4/6/2021 at 2:17 PM, Hollywood1892 said:

You guys thinking of buying an ASM 300?

No! 

[Hollywood1892]

1 minute ago, BigLeagueCHEW said:

No! 

But you've waited long enough

[WolverineX]

On 3/28/2021 at 10:21 PM, Mike_1 said:

I’ve been a long time fan of venom.  I bought his first comic and the first appearance of carnage when they came out, both still pristine.

I’ve always wanted Venom’s first appearance but couldn’t afford the price when I was younger, and then I forgot about comics all together until recently.  Now I see it and wonder if I will ever have a chance at buying a 9.8 at a lower price if I wait.  Been looking for Stan and Todd signed 9.6s on eBay as well but the prices are going up so fast.  Just not sure I want to splurge 4k.  Still a lot of money for me although I could swing it.

What do you guys think?

So  did you end up buying or did we scare you away when we started talking about newsstands...

[MetalPSI]

I always wanted this book 

Never going to get one now

I wanted xmen 12 before deadpool 2

Never going to get one now

[Mike_1]

On 4/7/2021 at 8:46 PM, Wolverinex said:

So  did you end up buying or did we scare you away when we started talking about newsstands...

I’m keeping an eye out.  I occasionally offer lower than asking.  Like someone wanted 5k for 9.6 news stand.  I offered what I thought was fair which is substantially less.  They eventually reached out but new pics show it has a ragged cover edge which puts me off.