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Does 'White Pages' influence Silver Age key values.
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64 posts in this topic

I think this subject may have been touched on many years ago. However, with the current trend of buying any key issue at any price, no matter what it is. I wonder if these new buyers consider the page quality when putting their money down.

For example, I have seen CGC grade 6.5 to 7.5 for an Avengers #1 white pages, X-Men #4 white pages out there. Would I expect to pay a premium on these and how much more than say,  o/w; ow; cr/ow equivalent ?

Opinion seems to have been divided in the past.

Comments appreciated,

Colin

 

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2 minutes ago, Colin Nash said:

I think this subject may have been touched on many years ago. However, with the current trend of buying any key issue at any price, no matter what it is. I wonder if these new buyers consider the page quality when putting their money down.

For example, I have seen CGC grade 6.5 to 7.5 for an Avengers #1 white pages, X-Men #4 white pages out there. Would I expect to pay a premium on these and how much more than say,  o/w; ow; cr/ow equivalent ?

Opinion seems to have been divided in the past.

Comments appreciated,

Colin

 

All other things being exactly equal, white pages mostly command a premium...there will always be exceptions...

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Thank you @Pantodude for taking the time to analyze the numbers. Inherently, it is difficult to compare books as an exact science. We're comparing comparable grades with comparable books but each book will have distinctive qualities ( color, centering, type of defect, etc ) that will affect the price in either direction that is not solely because of page quality. Also, timing and venue is everything along with micro and macro economic factors at the time of sale. The final  price paid for a book is fluid. That is why I mentioned in a vacuum, the books would have to be exactly the same, sold to the same buyer at the exact same point in time. I find it difficult to imagine a scenario where many collectors would not pay even a slight premium for better page quality...it's the reason many collectors continue to upgrade ( within their means ) and continue to pay for higher grade copies. Condition and appearance is the hallmark to any collectible.

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42 minutes ago, Funnybooks said:

I find it difficult to imagine a scenario where many collectors would not pay even a slight premium for better page quality

I hear you.   Quite possible the above data (which only looked at 2 books across a narrow grade range and in just one year, and with relatively few data points, especially for white pagers) just turned out that way.  But I've seen data suggest the same before, as I have noted elsewhere, which is surprising.  That said, common sense suggests significant premiums for Silver Age keys, not just early SA keys like IH#1 or early Spideys, X-Men, FF#1, JIM83, TTA27, etc, and certainly including late Silver Age.  A common refrain on these boards is how difficult it is to find a white pager Silver Surfer #4 in grade 9.6.  Big premium for that in the range suggested by Batmanis#1 above?  Presumably hell yeah.  I expect folks know of other books like that throughout the Silver Age.  

Edited by Pantodude
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5 hours ago, Colin Nash said:

I think this subject may have been touched on many years ago. However, with the current trend of buying any key issue at any price, no matter what it is. I wonder if these new buyers consider the page quality when putting their money down.

For example, I have seen CGC grade 6.5 to 7.5 for an Avengers #1 white pages, X-Men #4 white pages out there. Would I expect to pay a premium on these and how much more than say,  o/w; ow; cr/ow equivalent ?

Opinion seems to have been divided in the past.

Comments appreciated,

Colin

 

Yes

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2 hours ago, Pantodude said:

Avengers #1 and X-Men #1 are super cool to have, for sure.   It's always a good idea to temper subjectivity with some objectivity.  So what does empirical sales evidence (from GPA) tell us for these books in the 6.5 to 7.5 grade range you desire, say during 2019 before all the craziness of the past year?  But I must warn you....have a box of tissue handy.  The loooooow 2019 prices might make you cry like a baby.  If only I had a time machine, right?   And yes, I was bored and totally didn't mind doing this.  So bored that I formatted it, too!   

X-Men #4

X-Men #4 had 7 sales in 2019 in grade universal 6.5:   2/16: $1,038 for OW/W ; 4/24:  $1,200 for OW/W; 5/15: $1,179 for C/OW;  8/23:  $1,300 for C/OW; 10/22:  $1,099 for OW/W; 10/30:  $1,200 for OW;  and 12/10:  $1,300 for OW/W.  Although no white pagers sold, we see that a cream/off-white pager matched the highest price that whole year, despite the many OW/W pagers sold.  The C/OW pager fetched that $1,300 in August and it was not until 12/10 that any other book (an OW/W) broke through $1,200 that year, and even then, the OW/W pager only matched the high set by the C/OW pager.  Just saying.  

X-Men #4 had only 3 sales in 2019 in grade univeral 7.0:  3/1:   $1,325 for an OW/W;  4/5: $1,495 for an OW/W; and 7/22: $1,575 for a W.  As first sight, this suggests a nominal premium for a white pager ($80 on a $1,495 book, or 5.4%), but there really isn't enough data, as the OW/W had sold more than three months earlier.  Who knows what an OW/W would have fetched on 7/22/19.  

X-Men #4 had ten sales of a univeral 7.5 during 2019:  1/16:  $1,976 for an OW/W; 2/16:  1,660 for a C/OW; 2/24: $1,680 for an O/W; 6/19: $1,800 for a W; 8/4: $1,740 for an OW/W; 8/7: $1,780 for an OW/W; 9/14: $1,100 for an OW/W (!); 10/3: $1,850 for a W; 11/21:  $1,800 for an OW/W; and 12/12: $1,777 for an OW/W.   Again, the data shows only a nominal premium for a white pager of $60 on a $1,740 book mid-year, or 3.4%, and then a $50 premium on an $1,800 at year-end, or just 2.8%.   Also note that the year high, by a significant margin, was set by the OW/W pager at the beginning of the year.  

Summary X-Men #4:  An X-Men #4 white pager has fetched a premium of 2.8% to 5.4% in universal grades 7.0 through 7.5 in the most recent non-chaotic year (2019).   No white pager data for grade 6.5. 

Avengers #1

Avengers #1 had only 4 sales in 2019 in grade universal 6.5:  4/14:  $7,200 for a C/OW; 7/10: $5,900 for an OW/W; 8/24: $6,100 for a C/OW; and 12/1:  $5,280 for an OW/W.  No white pages sold, but still interesting info.   Not only did the Cream/Off-Whiters hold their own against the OW/W, the C/OW had by far the high for the year in an up-and-down year.  

Avengers #1 had only 5 sales in 2019 in 7.0: 2/26: $9,600 for an OW; 3/27:  $7,800 for an OW/W; 6/13:  $7,250 for an OW; 7/5:  $7,325 for an OW;  and 10:24: $7,206 for an OW/W.  Again no White pagers sold, but the OW pagers did just fine compared to the OW/W pagers.     

Avengers #1 had 8 sales in 2019 in grade 7.5:  1/3: $10,600 for an OW; 1/14 $9,702 for a W; 5/16: $10,800 for an OW/W; 8/1: $8,700 for a book that in no longer on census (cracked out re-sub?); 8/11: $9,000 for an OW/W; 10/11: $8,793 for a W; 11/21: $9,600 for an OW/W; 12/30: $11,600 for an OW.   Interesting that we end the research with the most telling data of all (of the data we looked at).  Here, not only was there no premium for a white pager, in BOTH instances the white pagers sold for less than the OW/W pagers that sold within a month of them.  

Summary:  An Avengers#1 white pager actually went for less than OW/W and even OW pagers during 2019 in grade 7.5.  A bit suprising!  No white pager data for grades 6.5 and 7.0.

Well, that's it, for what it's worth.  The data was limited, and perhaps certain books had warts we don't know about that could also explain the results, but it was intersting nonetheless.  Although looking at the above data suggests either a small positive premium or a small negative (!) premium for white pagers, common sense dictates more dough for more bells & whistles, so if you are counting on a negative premium on a white pager of ANY key, forget it!   And you can see that white pagers were pretty uncommon, too, which certainly matters.  Seriously though, if you do decide to grab or decline a book, hopefully you do so for well-founded reasons that matter to you.   And don't forget that a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush, especially during hunting season!   

Very interesting. 99% of the time I buy books raw and get them slabbed if I want to get them slabbed, just a little more fun to me to hunt for raws and not know exactly what the grade will be but... with this small of a premium for WP I might look into picking up more books that are already graded. I think the premium will only grow going forward.

Imagine if CGC ever updates the census to reflect grade AND page quality. WP books would explode. I bet they get there eventually, also with newsstand versus direct editions which GoCollect splits out on some major keys but not sure if the census itself does yet. Could still be some pockets of opportunity in this hot market.

Edited by BoogieWoogie
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I think you're going to see ups and downs in the data here regarding page quality, as two things are important to keep in mind -- first, does the book have some other issue that would mitigate a 'white page' bump.  Bad wrap, chipping, writing on the cover, a gross Stan Lee signature, etc.  If the book is otherwise clean, though, I'd say that WP might push up prices 10-20% or so.

The other question is whether a book seems to be 'upgradable' with a press or some other practice.  Then the PQ doesn't matter nearly as much to certain bidders -- they will bid up the potential and not the actual grade.  A COW book that has a pressable crease will definitely go for more than a COW book without one.

For myself, I only bid on wp books so I know that I'm driving up the value on a few of them.  But just keep in mind that it's one factor among many that get people to bid big -- including how often a certain book ever has 'white pages' at all.  With regard to SA keys, I'd say anecdotally that TTA 27, AF 15, and maybe FF 13 are among the toughest to find with WP.

Dan

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I feel like as the years have gone by and "newer" collectors have continued to enter the market, things that were once important have become less important. 

The little number in the top left corner of a slab has become more important than presentation, color, and PQ. Faded 5.0s with cream pages and chipping go for more than a bright 4.5 with OW and no chipping.

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I will pay more for a book with white pages from the silver age. I always stay under the next highest grades FMV. For example if I find a book graded a 7.5 with white pages, I’ll look to see what the FMV for this book is in a 7.5 and 8.0. I’ll usually pay somewhere in between the two FMV’s for the book with white pages, trying to stay as close as possible to the actual FMV for the books grade. I’ll never pay more then the nexts grade FMV. 

 If I happen to get the book with white pages for the books grade FMV, I consider it a deal. 

I won’t buy books graded 9.8 or 9.6 in any other page quality besides white pages. I have one or two exceptions to that rule in my collection. This doesn’t really pertain to the silver age though as I don’t own many silver age books in a 9.8 or 9.6 haha. 
 

-Steve 

Edited by SJay440
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57 minutes ago, Drummy said:

I think you're going to see ups and downs in the data here regarding page quality, as two things are important to keep in mind -- first, does the book have some other issue that would mitigate a 'white page' bump.  Bad wrap, chipping, writing on the cover, a gross Stan Lee signature, etc.  If the book is otherwise clean, though, I'd say that WP might push up prices 10-20% or so.

The other question is whether a book seems to be 'upgradable' with a press or some other practice.  Then the PQ doesn't matter nearly as much to certain bidders -- they will bid up the potential and not the actual grade.  A COW book that has a pressable crease will definitely go for more than a COW book without one.

For myself, I only bid on wp books so I know that I'm driving up the value on a few of them.  But just keep in mind that it's one factor among many that get people to bid big -- including how often a certain book ever has 'white pages' at all.  With regard to SA keys, I'd say anecdotally that TTA 27, AF 15, and maybe FF 13 are among the toughest to find with WP.

Dan

Are you trying to start a fight, is that it?! :sumo:

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I think its very much collector by collector. Obviously if you have identical books with PQ being the only difference, white pages will go for more. On the other hand, I think many people don't really think about page quality much when buying a book. Even more so with raw books where people often don't even mention the page quality of the book they are selling. 

I buy mainly GA books, but I can say that I don't really care much about page quality unless the pages are brittle, and I would almost always choose a cheaper book with lower page quality than a more expensive WP one.

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1 hour ago, BoogieWoogie said:

Imagine if CGC ever updates the census to reflect grade AND page quality.

That would be the most helpful piece of information imaginable! Its also within their ability to do this. CGC has the information its just a matter of breaking it out. They probably decided at cgc its not worth putting in the time/effort but its definitely doable. As far as newsstands not so much. Unfortunately cgc never had the presence of mind to notate that on the label. They couldn't come up with an accurate census now even if they wanted to on newsstands. It's a real shame!

Page quality is very important from my perspective but not everything. There is still other factors like if the spine has too much white or maybe slight color fading...other details where I'll choose a non white or just pass altogether. 

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Yes, white pages are a desirable trait in collectible comic books which is why people will pay more for them. No one will pay more for a book with cream pages, will they? No.

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52 minutes ago, SJay440 said:

I won’t buy books graded 9.8 or 9.6 in any other page quality besides white pages. I have one or two exceptions to that rule in my collection.

Just curious what those exceptions are if you don't mind me asking?

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