Layout vs Finished Penciler 0

[sfilosa]

So, looking for some thoughts on this art, but could be any art...

Jim Starlin and Steve Leialoha Warlock #11 Story Page 16 Original | Lot #91017 | Heritage Auctions

Wonderful Warlock page for sure. But it is only Starlin layouts with Leialoha finishing and inking.

The question is, what category do you fall in:

1) Wouldn't want to buy, at least not as a Starlin page. If owned, would look at how great the page is but always feel that it isn't a true Starlin page and doesn't fit my need to own one.

2) Don't care that Starlin just did the layouts. Great page and would be willing to pay the same amount for a similar page that Starlin did the full pencils.

3) Would want to own, but would need to pay significantly less (say 20% or more) than a comparable Starlin page.

And to add to it, if you would want to own, would it matter if you already had a "full" Starlin page in your collection.

Understand, question is not necessarily specific to this page, but more to "great pages", where an "A" artist only did the layouts.

As a touch of background, I was able to get a very nice Warlock Starlin page, but it took a long time because I wanted one that wasn't just layouts. So prior to that, I was in category #1, but maybe, I would be in #3 now (maybe).

Thoughts?

[Twanj]

Good question!

2 other Kirby layouts pages with finished pencils by someone else

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-george-tuska-and-wally-wood-tales-of-suspense-72-story-page-4-original-art-marvel-1965-/a/7242-94103.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

 

https://comics.ha.com/itm/original-comic-art/jack-kirby-bob-powell-and-mike-esposito-tales-to-astonish-73-story-page-7-hulk-original-art-marvel-1965-/a/7242-95182.s?ic4=GalleryView-Thumbnail-071515

[Rick2you2]

I would take 2 steps backward, and first recognize that $15k is a healthy chunk of money. Then, I would ask myself whether there is something I want that would cost that much, or more, that may be for sale and I wouldn’t buy if I bought this? If the answer is no, buy it. To that second question, I usually answer yes (and sometimes ignore my own answer, buy it anyway, and get pissed off at myself later).
Also, ask yourself if it is a forever purchase or to be used for trade/sale later. If the latter, I would be more cautious about buying it for the reason you mentioned.

[Mighty Hal]

4) What if Leialoha had done the layouts and Starlin had done the finishes? Would that make this a more desirable page to you?

After all, it's the finisher's artwork that's on the page. The panels may be more dynamic because of the layout -- if the finisher cared to follow the layout he was given -- but if you're collecting the artist, not the storyline, is that enough?

[stinkininkin]

13 hours ago, sfilosa said:

So, looking for some thoughts on this art, but could be any art...

Jim Starlin and Steve Leialoha Warlock #11 Story Page 16 Original | Lot #91017 | Heritage Auctions

Wonderful Warlock page for sure. But it is only Starlin layouts with Leialoha finishing and inking.

The question is, what category do you fall in:

1) Wouldn't want to buy, at least not as a Starlin page. If owned, would look at how great the page is but always feel that it isn't a true Starlin page and doesn't fit my need to own one.

2) Don't care that Starlin just did the layouts. Great page and would be willing to pay the same amount for a similar page that Starlin did the full pencils.

3) Would want to own, but would need to pay significantly less (say 20% or more) than a comparable Starlin page.

And to add to it, if you would want to own, would it matter if you already had a "full" Starlin page in your collection.

Understand, question is not necessarily specific to this page, but more to "great pages", where an "A" artist only did the layouts.

As a touch of background, I was able to get a very nice Warlock Starlin page, but it took a long time because I wanted one that wasn't just layouts. So prior to that, I was in category #1, but maybe, I would be in #3 now (maybe).

Thoughts?

2. Definitely.

We don't know how loose those layouts were, and from the looks of this page with the final inks, I'd guess fairly tight. This page looks like primo Starlin, and that's either a credit to Leialoha and his ability to ape Starlin so well, or the layouts were tighter than say a John Buscema or Gil Kane level of layout. Regardless, the page not only LOOKS like an A level Starlin Warlock page, but the actual content/impact of this page make this not just an A page, but an A-plus page in my opinion. It just doesn't get much better IMHO.

And towards the larger question, layouts and finishes should be judged on a case by case basis. I wouldn't value a page differently based on it being created by a layout/finisher method, only by how successful that method appears to me, the collector. And to be sure, I've seen layout pages that I love (like the Warlock page above) much more than pages that are designated full pencils by a given artist, Starlin Warlock included. Long story short, layouts alone is not the decider. Quality is the decider.

Edited March 31, 2021 by stinkininkin

[stinkininkin]

And for what it's worth, I will also guess that this page will hammer for a big number. BIG number. Perhaps triple it's current bid. 

[grapeape]

Leialoha is an extraordinary finisher. The combination of these two makes it a slam dunk for me. I’m actually leaning towards the notion along the lines that Steve does “more” on this page. Yet no doubt sings as a robust Starlin. 

🍇 🦍 

[cloud cloddie]

3 minutes ago, grapeape said:

Leialoha is an extraordinary finisher. The combination of these two makes it a slam dunk for me. I’m actually leaning towards the notion along the lines that Steve does “more” on this page. Yet no doubt sings as a robust Starlin. 

🍇 🦍 

x2. I like Leialoha just as much as Starlin, so regardless of who took the reins on this, it’s a great duo and great page. 

[sfilosa]

1 hour ago, stinkininkin said:

And for what it's worth, I will also guess that this page will hammer for a big number. BIG number. Perhaps triple it's current bid. 

So a couple of points:

1) My blind spot in collecting comic art (especially since I have and will pay five figures for a piece) is the significance of a page. Some pages/issues I know (e.g. Death of Gwen Stacy, 1st appearances of characters, etc.) but not really story lines. There is a lot of hype when these are sold in auctions and I don't know which ones are "really significant" and which are just mostly hype).

2) Ignore 1) for a second. Albert Moy has had this page on his website for five years at a price of $13,000. I inquired about it several years ago but never pulled the trigger because.....Starlin only did the layouts. From the same issue I originally posted about, really nice action scene with Warlock and Thanos. My assumption was the reason it never sold for what appears to be a really good price was .........Starlin only did the layouts.

So what am I missing?

[grapeape]

55 minutes ago, sfilosa said:

So a couple of points:

1) My blind spot in collecting comic art (especially since I have and will pay five figures for a piece) is the significance of a page. Some pages/issues I know (e.g. Death of Gwen Stacy, 1st appearances of characters, etc.) but not really story lines. There is a lot of hype when these are sold in auctions and I don't know which ones are "really significant" and which are just mostly hype).

2) Ignore 1) for a second. Albert Moy has had this page on his website for five years at a price of $13,000. I inquired about it several years ago but never pulled the trigger because.....Starlin only did the layouts. From the same issue I originally posted about, really nice action scene with Warlock and Thanos. My assumption was the reason it never sold for what appears to be a really good price was .........Starlin only did the layouts.

So what am I missing?

I don’t think you’re missing much.

As we’ve seen consistently some art sits flat on a dealers site and then the price soars on HA.
The word layout often triggers a sense of dread for potential buyers. How much of that work is the penciled art vs the inker?

Its true that layout could weigh down a price point.

Now prove me wrong friends I can take it:

1) a few of us have spent a lot of time learning the history of who did what on a page. A “few” of us. We will purchase or not based on that knowledge.

2) In this current auction market money is pouring in on art that is perceived as “investment potential” more then it is on who did what on a page.

3) auctions find fresh eyes where as dealer sites trade in items seen repetitively.( Albert Moy 5 years) Albert  I guarantee you knows who? contributed what on this page!

Ok friends rip me apart on either point. I’m probably at least partially wrong.

grape ape 

[stinkininkin]

3 hours ago, stinkininkin said:

And for what it's worth, I will also guess that this page will hammer for a big number. BIG number. Perhaps triple it's current bid. 

The bids have gone up multiple bid increments in the three hours since I posted the above. 

[stinkininkin]

1 hour ago, sfilosa said:

So a couple of points:

1) My blind spot in collecting comic art (especially since I have and will pay five figures for a piece) is the significance of a page. Some pages/issues I know (e.g. Death of Gwen Stacy, 1st appearances of characters, etc.) but not really story lines. There is a lot of hype when these are sold in auctions and I don't know which ones are "really significant" and which are just mostly hype).

2) Ignore 1) for a second. Albert Moy has had this page on his website for five years at a price of $13,000. I inquired about it several years ago but never pulled the trigger because.....Starlin only did the layouts. From the same issue I originally posted about, really nice action scene with Warlock and Thanos. My assumption was the reason it never sold for what appears to be a really good price was .........Starlin only did the layouts.

So what am I missing?

If you read the Starlin Warlock series (and the Capt. Marvel lead up to the series), and then followed up with the conclusion in Avengers Annual 7 and the Marvel Two in One annual, you'd know the significance of THIS page. I'll just leave it at that, but that's why I would personally value it much higher than Alberts page. Alberts page looks really nice artistically, but doesn't have the same significance as the Heritage page. 

[sfilosa]

On 3/31/2021 at 12:36 PM, stinkininkin said:

And for what it's worth, I will also guess that this page will hammer for a big number. BIG number. Perhaps triple it's current bid. 

Didn't hit the triple (a little less than a double).  It was still a healthy price but do you think the Starlin "layout" penalized it?

 

[stinkininkin]

1 hour ago, sfilosa said:

On 3/31/2021 at 9:36 AM, stinkininkin said:

And for what it's worth, I will also guess that this page will hammer for a big number. BIG number. Perhaps triple it's current bid. 

Didn't hit the triple (a little less than a double).  It was still a healthy price but do you think the Starlin "layout" penalized it?

 

No idea what kept the price in the realm of sanity. The way the market has been reacting the last few years, this truly key page seems "well bought". It certainly isn't a splashy page, and is VERY story specific in it's appeal. Maybe more people care about the layout aspect than I do in this case as well. Who knows? 

[zhamlau]

I’m still just trying to get a firm definition of the difference between “breakdowns” and “layouts”. I’ve had it argued each way that one is more finished than the other. To me it seems like breakdowns would be more finished. Also what really divides the two, just subjective opinion of the editor? Did one get a higher page rate than the other? 
 

I question everything.

[sfilosa]

11 minutes ago, zhamlau said:

I’m still just trying to get a firm definition of the difference between “breakdowns” and “layouts”. I’ve had it argued each way that one is more finished than the other. To me it seems like breakdowns would be more finished. Also what really divides the two, just subjective opinion of the editor? Did one get a higher page rate than the other? 
 

I question everything.

Little kids question everything also......"why", "why", "why". 

But a very good question. That said, for me, if the "art" feels like a great representation of the artist work, I'm more inclined to assume that the art was more "defined" by the main artist.

That said, from a "pure" investment point of view or even from a "purest" collecting point of view (as in I want to own at lease one "Starlin" page), I really have to exclude only layouts/breakdowns (regardless on how good the page looks). Now if I'm buying it for the content (this is a significant page in comic book lore), than the artist doesn't really matter that much anyway. Point, the first appearance of Wolverine page. Artist, irrelevant. 

[Mighty Hal]

3 hours ago, sfilosa said:

Point, the first appearance of Wolverine page. Artist, irrelevant. 

An interesting statement and it's left me wondering if this is true. I'm not a Wolverine collector, so I was only somewhat interested in the final sale price on his first appearance. (So many zeroes!) For those people who were more involved, was the artist completely irrelevant? At the close of auction, if Jack Kirby/Todd McFarlane/Your Favorite Artist had done the page, would the final price would have been the same?

[ft88]

Then there’s the layout by a tier 2 artist Kane. But only the layout w published finishes by Adams  

[stinkininkin]

13 hours ago, ft88 said:

Then there’s the layout by a tier 2 artist Kane. But only the layout w published finishes by Adams  

That's great. Solid layout has all the information needed for a competent artist to finish. This also happens to be my absolute favorite Marvel Conan story hands down, so there's that too.

Edited April 13, 2021 by stinkininkin