Incredible Hulk 449 2 2

[PeterPark]

3 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

Not necessarily.  It depends on the book and when it came out.  Newsstand editions of books from the mid-1980s are probably more common (or just as common) as the direct editions (yet there are some claiming the newsstand should be worth more, just because).  I personally think this is an artificial distinction but that's part of my collecting values (and many others, apparently).

This is by no means an established hierarchy.  

It's not just because. It is because they were not sold in comic stores so the handling has equal treatment as a ceiling. Regardless of print run, the average grade of newsstand comics will be lower. Harder-to-find in higher grade always equates to more money, all else being equal.

[Randall Dowling]

Just now, valiantman said:

So, your argument is actually against the existence of variants in the market.  Yeah, that's a much bigger battle you're also destined to lose.

No, completely different cover art is different than whether it has a UPC code or not.  In any case, feel free to value those more.  Just don't get indignant when not everyone agrees with you.

[valiantman]

Just now, Randall Dowling said:

2 minutes ago, valiantman said:

So, your argument is actually against the existence of variants in the market.  Yeah, that's a much bigger battle you're also destined to lose.

No, completely different cover art is different than whether it has a UPC code or not.  In any case, feel free to value those more.  Just don't get indignant when not everyone agrees with you.

Even if 99% of the people want to believe that newsstands and direct editions should be equal, it's the 1% that pay more, seek out the newsstands, and the sales that get averaged in which makes the difference in the market.

Math doesn't require 100% of anything.  Ignoring the fact that there are differences is willful ignorance, not a stance worthy of pride.

[PeterPark]

6 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

My feelings are unchanged.  I don't care if they printed 200,000 direct copies and 1 newsstand.  It's a gimmick.  Just like the many versions of McFarlane's Spider-man 1.  All the same comic, but designed to get collectors to chase artificial, relatively non-substantial differences.

No gimmick here, just a relic of old methods of distribution. And the differences were not manufactured to make one more desirable. That is the reason newsstands are desirable in the first place; they were clear second-class citizens for years and years and, in large part, treated as such.

Edited April 2, 2021 by PeterPark

[valiantman]

Just now, XjYoZbQ said:

8 minutes ago, valiantman said:

I replied IN the topic.  You ignoring the topic is part of the problem.

How can people have "collections full of direct editions" if you're only talking about Hulk 449? You made a poor generalization, accept it.

Because only those with collections full of direct editions would be bold enough to ignore even this very specific example of Incredible Hulk #449 newsstand - one of the easiest newsstands to check that it is significantly harder to find than direct edition.  If even the most obvious tougher newsstands are dismissed, then it's the person making the generalization against newsstands... and not the particular book.

[valiantman]

3 minutes ago, PeterPark said:

9 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

My feelings are unchanged.  I don't care if they printed 200,000 direct copies and 1 newsstand.  It's a gimmick.  Just like the many versions of McFarlane's Spider-man 1.  All the same comic, but designed to get collectors to chase artificial, relatively non-substantial differences.

No gimmick here, just a relic of old methods of distribution. And the differences were not manufactured to make one more desirable. That is the reason newsstands are desirable in the first place; they were clear second-class citizens for years and years and, in large part, treated as such.

Comic books, as an industry, are only valuable today because "they were clear second-class citizens for years and years and, in large part, treated as such." 

If Action Comics #1 was more than a disposable entertainment newsprint when it came out, there would be thousands of them remaining.

Direct editions are the (relatively) more recent "manufactured collectibles" --- well-protected since the day they arrived in stores, bagged and boarded. It is the later newsstands that more often suffered the same fate as 1930s comic books.  You've got the right view of newsstands, but haven't realized that it's always the comics which were once "worthless" which become the ones worth seeking, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

[Randall Dowling]

2 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Even if 99% of the people want to believe that newsstands and direct editions should be equal, it's the 1% that pay more, seek out the newsstands, and the sales that get averaged in which makes the difference in the market.

Math doesn't require 100% of anything.  Ignoring the fact that there are differences is willful ignorance, not a stance worthy of pride.

I'm not ignoring the difference.  I'm just saying that it's not substantive to me and thus worth paying more for one copy over another.  And my position that value should be based upon substance, not superficiality is far from embarrassing or shameful.  It's how most people feel.  

As you know, up until 10 years ago, nobody cared about this distinction.  A vocal few have been espousing the virtues of newsstand copies (of which you are one), 3rd printings, errors, etc..  And the market will decide in the end.  Personally, I care more about story and art than I do about tiny changes in price formatting.

[PeterPark]

Just now, valiantman said:

Comic books, as an industry, are only valuable today because "they were clear second-class citizens for years and years and, in large part, treated as such." 

If Action Comics #1 was more than a disposable entertainment newsprint when it came out, there would be thousands of them remaining.

Direct editions are the (relatively) more recent "manufactured collectibles" --- well-protected since the day they arrived in stores, bagged and boarded. It is the later newsstands that more often suffered the same fate as 1930s comic books.  You've got the right view of newsstands, but haven't realized that it's always the comics which were once "worthless" which become the ones worth seeking, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Who is this directed at? 

[PeterPark]

1 minute ago, Randall Dowling said:

I'm not ignoring the difference.  I'm just saying that it's not substantive to me and thus worth paying more for one copy over another.  And my position that value should be based upon substance, not superficiality is far from embarrassing or shameful.  It's how most people feel.  

As you know, up until 10 years ago, nobody cared about this distinction.  A vocal few have been espousing the virtues of newsstand copies (of which you are one), 3rd printings, errors, etc..  And the market will decide in the end.  Personally, I care more about story and art than I do about tiny changes in price formatting.

I always base value on what something will sell for. Not a lot of humans would pay $3 million for an Action Comics 1 but that doesn't affect its value because some will.

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, PeterPark said:

2 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Comic books, as an industry, are only valuable today because "they were clear second-class citizens for years and years and, in large part, treated as such." 

If Action Comics #1 was more than a disposable entertainment newsprint when it came out, there would be thousands of them remaining.

Direct editions are the (relatively) more recent "manufactured collectibles" --- well-protected since the day they arrived in stores, bagged and boarded. It is the later newsstands that more often suffered the same fate as 1930s comic books.  You've got the right view of newsstands, but haven't realized that it's always the comics which were once "worthless" which become the ones worth seeking, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

Who is this directed at? 

Anyone who would argue that newsstands aren't special because they've never been special.  So, pretty much everyone who has replied so far... except you. 

[valiantman]

4 minutes ago, XjYoZbQ said:

9 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Because only those with collections full of direct editions would be bold enough to ignore even this very specific example of Incredible Hulk #449 newsstand - one of the easiest newsstands to check that it is significantly harder to find than direct edition.  If even the most obvious tougher newsstands are dismissed, then it's the person making the generalization against newsstands... and not the particular book.

 okay, I see your twisted logic now.

Sour grapes is a well-known position for direct edition collectors to take.  Not surprising at all.

[valiantman]

18 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

I'm not ignoring the difference.  I'm just saying that it's not substantive to me and thus worth paying more for one copy over another.  And my position that value should be based upon substance, not superficiality is far from embarrassing or shameful.  It's how most people feel.  

As you know, up until 10 years ago, nobody cared about this distinction.  A vocal few have been espousing the virtues of newsstand copies (of which you are one), 3rd printings, errors, etc..  And the market will decide in the end.  Personally, I care more about story and art than I do about tiny changes in price formatting.

True, from that logic, you would never purchase a variant unless it was the same price as a regular edition and had some other quality you preferred (such as a more attractive cover).

While I admire your purist standpoint, and I even wish there were more examples of books without any identifiable variations (intended or not), somewhere around the end of the 1970s, pretty much every comic book has at least two types, direct and newsstand - which were never intended to divide the market.  Beginning with the 1990s, comics have variations which were always intended to divide the market - "exclusives", "incentives", "premiums" - and I also despise them.

The "sweet spot" in collecting has always been items (comics or otherwise) which weren't special for many years... things which become special later, precisely because they aren't as easy to find as once thought.  Because they were thrown out more often, or just not "prized" as much as something else was.  The Marvel 1977 35-cent variants are absolutely harder to find, in every case, and there are still collectors who would pass right over one if they saw it priced the same as a 30-cent edition in a comic shop.

That's fine... everyone won't always recognize the difference, but the market, as a whole, does tend to reflect what can be known.  In the case of Incredible Hulk #449, the market will eventually (if it doesn't already) recognize that newsstands are harder to find.  Collectors can ignore it, but the market won't.

Edited April 2, 2021 by valiantman

[Ken Aldred]

32 minutes ago, Randall Dowling said:

My feelings are unchanged.  I don't care if they printed 200,000 direct copies and 1 newsstand.  It's a gimmick.  Just like the many versions of McFarlane's Spider-man 1.  All the same comic, but designed to get collectors to chase artificial, relatively non-substantial differences.

Yup. I’ve never been bothered at all.  Focused on the contents, story, art, rather than a barcode or suchlike.  A nicely-presenting copy and I’m happy. 

But, there are different types of focus, so the OP’s question is fair enough.

Edited April 2, 2021 by Ken Aldred

[valiantman]

1 minute ago, XjYoZbQ said:

9 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Sour grapes is a well-known position for direct edition collectors to take.  Not surprising at all.

Here's a good example of  why I posted in the first place - your generalizations and hyperbole are strong but your powers of perception are weak.

Your one week of time on this board has taught you so much.  Teach me more, o wise XYZQ-job.

[valiantman]

Just now, XjYoZbQ said:

3 minutes ago, valiantman said:

Your one week of time on this board has taught you so much.  Teach me more, o wise XYZQ-job.

There you go again, making assumptions 

Interesting.  What was your old username? 

[Hamlet]

My question is why anyone would be interested in either version of this book?  😈

[MetalPSI]

42 minutes ago, Hamlet said:

My question is why anyone would be interested in either version of this book?  😈

Boom

[valiantman]

1 hour ago, XjYoZbQ said:

1 hour ago, valiantman said:

Interesting.  What was your old username? 

Oh, so you don't know everything 

I only have useful information.

[batmiesta]

If it is a book I really want, I couldn't care a less where it came from Newsstand or direct, at the end of the day, what difference does it make? 

[valiantman]

9 minutes ago, batmiesta said:

If it is a book I really want, I couldn't care a less where it came from Newsstand or direct, at the end of the day, what difference does it make? 

At the end of the day?  What day?  Today, it doesn't make much difference.  In the future, there will be two different markets.  That's the difference it will make.