Heritage Auction Purchase 0

[OdinsSecrets]

I bought a Sub-mariner #12 off one of Heritages Sunday auctions a couple weeks ago (https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/sub-mariner-comics-12-timely-1943-condition-fr/a/122112-17480.s).  They describe it as Fair with tape on the spine. When I got it I was looking through it and found that there is a missing piece on the 2nd page which goes into a text bubble.

Anyone know if CGC would give this a Blue label incomplete due to the missing piece? And would you send back something with a piece missing like this, even if it was described as Fair?

Normally I would write it off, but this book wasn't cheap for a FR copy so I am not that happy about finding interior damage that wasn't mentioned in the listing (and the book also has a detached and split centerfold - also not noted, but not a major problem for a FR book I guess.).

Appreciate your options.

 

[tabcom]

That’s what I call a rip off.

[szav]

10 minutes ago, tabcom said:

That’s what I call a rip off.

I grade this one UnFair.

[OdinsSecrets]

Where’s the groan reaction

[jimbo_7071]

15 minutes ago, OdinsSecrets said:

I bought a Sub-mariner #12 off one of Heritages Sunday auctions a couple weeks ago (https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/sub-mariner-comics-12-timely-1943-condition-fr/a/122112-17480.s).  They describe it as Fair with tape on the spine. When I got it I was looking through it and found that there is a missing piece on the 2nd page which goes into a text bubble.

Anyone know if CGC would give this a Blue label incomplete due to the missing piece? And would you send back something with a piece missing like this, even if it was described as Fair?

Normally I would write it off, but this book wasn't cheap for a FR copy so I am not that happy about finding interior damage that wasn't mentioned in the listing (and the book also has a detached and split centerfold - also not noted, but not a major problem for a FR book I guess.).

Appreciate your options.

 

I can't answer the question about the possible "INCOMPLETE" notation. But are you sure you want to bother to slab a book that is only a FAIR? I personally wouldn't bother to slab any non-key unless I thought it would get at least a grade of VG.

[OdinsSecrets]

2 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I can't answer the question about the possible "INCOMPLETE" notation. But are you sure you want to bother to slab a book that is only a FAIR? I personally wouldn't bother to slab any non-key unless I thought it would get at least a grade of VG.

Well, I'm not sure if I am going to send it in, I'll probably keep it raw for now, but it was a $700 book even in fair condition. And since CGC is the de-facto standard for a lot of grading these days, if they will find it incomplete then I assume on the general market it's going to be considered incomplete.

[szav]

3 minutes ago, jimbo_7071 said:

I can't answer the question about the possible "INCOMPLETE" notation. But are you sure you want to bother to slab a book that is only a FAIR? I personally wouldn't bother to slab any non-key unless I thought it would get at least a grade of VG.

I’ve slabbed a few 1.0s with them.  Cool books that were falling apart that I wanted to put on display but didn’t want to worry about falling further apart from others handling them.

[jimbo_7071]

18 minutes ago, OdinsSecrets said:

Well, I'm not sure if I am going to send it in, I'll probably keep it raw for now, but it was a $700 book even in fair condition. And since CGC is the de-facto standard for a lot of grading these days, if they will find it incomplete then I assume on the general market it's going to be considered incomplete.

That was a steep price for a fair! If you think you can get HA to give you a refund based on the missing piece, I would certainly try. I'd be bummed out if I bought a book and found out it had a chunk out that affected the interior art.

[Point Five]

I hear you and that's really frustrating. All those defects you describe should have been noted.

With that said, and I take no pleasure in saying this, I think a missing chunk like this is not unreasonable in Fair. I think in a perfect world CGC 'should' agree, but your worry makes sense and I really have no idea what their position would be.

 

[fifties]

4 hours ago, OdinsSecrets said:

Well, I'm not sure if I am going to send it in, I'll probably keep it raw for now, but it was a $700 book even in fair condition. And since CGC is the de-facto standard for a lot of grading these days, if they will find it incomplete then I assume on the general market it's going to be considered incomplete.

According to the grading guide in Overstreet, a book in fair, 1.0  condition can have chunks missing, and books in lesser condition are usually incomplete.

[OdinsSecrets]

16 minutes ago, fifties said:

According to the grading guide in Overstreet, a book in fair, 1.0  condition can have chunks missing, and books in lesser condition are usually incomplete.

Hmm, does Overstreet it say if that includes missing pieces that affect the story? I do think it could probably get a 1.0 CGC blue label, but I wonder if it would be marked incomplete still. I think there would be a significant difference in value between a 'normal' 1.0 and an incomplete 1.0.

[jimjum12]

1 hour ago, Point Five said:

I hear you and that's really frustrating. All those defects you describe should have been noted.

With that said, and I take no pleasure in saying this, I think a missing chunk like this is not unreasonable in Fair. I think in a perfect world CGC 'should' agree, but your worry makes sense and I really have no idea what their position would be.

 

I'm leaning this way too ... the front cover eye appeal looks good from the scans. With "Fair" I expect some disappointments... but I'm thinking they would accept a return due to non disclosure, which you should probably do, since you were put off enough to reach out here.... $ 700 should equal happy. GOD BLESS...

-jimbo(a friend of jesus)

[fifties]

3 hours ago, OdinsSecrets said:

Hmm, does Overstreet it say if that includes missing pieces that affect the story? I do think it could probably get a 1.0 CGC blue label, but I wonder if it would be marked incomplete still. I think there would be a significant difference in value between a 'normal' 1.0 and an incomplete 1.0.

OK, here it is, word for word;

1.0 FAIR (FR): A copy in this grade shows heavy wear. Some collectors consider this the lowest collectible grade because comic books in lesser condition are usually incomplete and/or brittle. Comics in this grade are usually soiled, faded, ragged and possibly unattractive. Cover may be detached, and inks have lost all reflectivity. Creases, tears and/or folds are prevalent. Corners are commonly rounded or absent. Soiling and staining is present. Books in this condition generally have all pages and most of the covers, although there may be up to 1/4 of the front cover missing or no back cover, but not both. Tape and other forms of amateur repair are more common. Spine roll is more common; spine split can extend up to 2/3 the length of the book. Staples may be missing or show rust and discoloration. An accumulation of staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as rust migration. Paper is (no worse than) brown and may show brittleness around the edges but not in the central portion of the pages. Acidic odor may be present. Accumulation of interior tears. Chunks may be missing. The centerfold may be missing if readability is generally preserved. Coupons may be cut.

[jimbo_7071]

5 hours ago, fifties said:

OK, here it is, word for word;

1.0 FAIR (FR): A copy in this grade shows heavy wear. Some collectors consider this the lowest collectible grade because comic books in lesser condition are usually incomplete and/or brittle. Comics in this grade are usually soiled, faded, ragged and possibly unattractive. Cover may be detached, and inks have lost all reflectivity. Creases, tears and/or folds are prevalent. Corners are commonly rounded or absent. Soiling and staining is present. Books in this condition generally have all pages and most of the covers, although there may be up to 1/4 of the front cover missing or no back cover, but not both. Tape and other forms of amateur repair are more common. Spine roll is more common; spine split can extend up to 2/3 the length of the book. Staples may be missing or show rust and discoloration. An accumulation of staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as rust migration. Paper is (no worse than) brown and may show brittleness around the edges but not in the central portion of the pages. Acidic odor may be present. Accumulation of interior tears. Chunks may be missing. The centerfold may be missing if readability is generally preserved. Coupons may be cut.

It sounds like the book meets the criteria for a FAIR, but the protocol in the hobby, for as long as I can remember—granted my memory doesn't go back as far as yours, fifties—has been disclosure of significant defects like pieces missing or a split centerfold (which probably means that the pages are brittle). In the old (catalog) days, all significant defects would have been noted; now that scans are the norm, sellers might not be expected to note defects that are visible in the scans, but interior defects should still be noted.

One of my biggest gripes about HA is that they don't note the page quality of raw books. (To me page quality is more important than grade.)

Edited April 2, 2021 by jimbo_7071

[Randall Ries]

You will get a blue label with a notation "Piece(s) missing. Affects story."

[IngelsFan]

7 hours ago, fifties said:

OK, here it is, word for word;

1.0 FAIR (FR): A copy in this grade shows heavy wear. Some collectors consider this the lowest collectible grade because comic books in lesser condition are usually incomplete and/or brittle. Comics in this grade are usually soiled, faded, ragged and possibly unattractive. Cover may be detached, and inks have lost all reflectivity. Creases, tears and/or folds are prevalent. Corners are commonly rounded or absent. Soiling and staining is present. Books in this condition generally have all pages and most of the covers, although there may be up to 1/4 of the front cover missing or no back cover, but not both. Tape and other forms of amateur repair are more common. Spine roll is more common; spine split can extend up to 2/3 the length of the book. Staples may be missing or show rust and discoloration. An accumulation of staple tears and stress lines may be present, as well as rust migration. Paper is (no worse than) brown and may show brittleness around the edges but not in the central portion of the pages. Acidic odor may be present. Accumulation of interior tears. Chunks may be missing. The centerfold may be missing if readability is generally preserved. Coupons may be cut.

That’s interesting that a book with no back cover can get a 1.0. 

[rjpb]

I suspect this would get a 1.0 from CGC, as the missing piece only slightly effects the readability of the story. It would be nice if Heritage listed such a flaw, even on a FR copy, but I'd say they got the grade right. I'd prefer finding this flaw to finding out a low grade book had brittle pages that weren't disclosed.

FWIW, high volume sellers like Heritage sometimes miss things. I recently had to return a  FR book because the wrap behind the CF was missing. I suspect someone opened it to the center, saw the cf was there and looked no further, but it was an old Quality book, where each page is numbered at the top, so it was still pretty easy to see that the page numbering jumped. Heritage still hasn't refunded me the original shipping costs, after saying they would, but that's another story.

 

[OdinsSecrets]

Thanks for all the advice, it has been helpful. I think I will probably hold onto the book, since I wanted it anyway, and I can live with the small piece missing. I'm guessing I overpaid a little bit considering, but who knows with a book like this in the current market anyway.

[Randall Ries]

34 minutes ago, OdinsSecrets said:

Thanks for all the advice, it has been helpful. I think I will probably hold onto the book, since I wanted it anyway, and I can live with the small piece missing. I'm guessing I overpaid a little bit considering, but who knows with a book like this in the current market anyway.

It's an awesome book just for being what it is alone. Everyone is overpaying these days. Enjoy the feeling pride of ownership brings.

[path4play]

They are pretty good about taking returns for undisclosed issues.  I returned a Captain America Comics #16 to them for something once, now its probably worth like 3x what I paid.  Opps.