Action Comics #1 - 3.25 Mil new highest sale!
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261 posts in this topic

46 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

Fact is, the "rules" in some cases need not apply. An Action 1 with rusty staples? The staples need to be replaced. If I pay 3.5 mill for a book of that caliber, some preservation is going to need to take place. Not going to let two oxidizing pieces of metal remain. In this case, if it violated "rules" set out by a company that in reality is only offering an opinion and a restoration check, out of the slab it comes. It's an Action 1. It can pretty much write its own check.

And really, there must be far more sophisticated means of preservation than a plastic slab with some absorbing wax paper between the cover and first page. At some point, very significant books need to be moved out of the grading world and into some serious preservation means. Not changing the book but as was pointed out, removing hazardous items so the books pages don't get further ruined. That book could lose a full point in grade. But who is going to submit it to be regraded knowing full well it'll take a massive value hit? Now it's a 7.5 with an 8.5 label. Some things NEED to happen. "Staples Replaced"? Shouldn't be restoration at all. These are rules people are self imposing or allowing to be imposed by a company hired to grade, not dictate terms. Sometimes rules need to be changed or done away with altogether for the sake of both the book and the hundreds of thousands of dollars people spend to have books like this.

Same with that 9.0 Bat 1 that had an aqueous cover clean. So? So what? "Rules"? What "rules"? The book was positively enhanced. Dirt was removed. That's it. The book can write its own ticket. It's a Bat 1 with a clean cover. An Action 1 with new clean staples. No way I would let the staples remain. If that meant de-slabbing it and storing it by different means, then so be it. I'll get a professional document restoring company to certify it hasn't been restored and if sell time comes, show proper paperwork. Still an Action 1.

Thank you so much for your great response. In spirit, I agree with you. I would however limit staple replacement to only the ones similar to those replaced from incomplete GA from the same company and time period. Where I disagree with you is that where does it modifying  end and where does it begin. If we have a Blue,Green, and Purple label system. We need to stick to it. Slowly inch by inch if we give in to exceptions to the rule,  it will self destruct the color labeling system and  eventually destroy it. I ask you this: Do you want to destroy the color label system? First lets add staple replacement, cleaning etc..what happened to the gold old fashioned way of calling things what they really. "Unrestored" should mean just that , and not plus, plus plus. Now we even have two BLUE labels...this is getting insane.

My second question to you is: Why complicate this system even further. Look what we had added to the list or better put "ignoring" reality..pressing a book like flat pancake in which everybody is in for the $ or the cut and list is too many here.

 How about what is right is right and modifying a comic book is restoring it.

I am afraid, based upon reality I cannot agree with you if you want to keep the current CGC graded color  system. More changes or exceptions do NOT need  to happen.

 

Edited by Mmehdy
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8 hours ago, Terry_JSA said:

Considering how the market currently is right now, it wouldn’t surprise me if someone actually bought this restored copy for $3.5M but it’s still a cool book nonetheless, restored or not. 

Damn straight it's a cool book, we are in an era of ( panels from this book being sought after, not pages panels) so having an extensive resto Action #1 in your collection is pretty bad @ss . I wonder would cgc grade this book? If so the current owner should do so regardless of the potential for a lower grade. 

Edited by I am not Glenda
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52 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Hmmmm....................that's exactly why it would no longer be considered to be Restored  :fear:, and instead, be classified as Conserved and residing in one of those slabs with a quasi-grey/blue label.  :gossip:

Then again, nonetheless, it's still a big knock to the book and its resultimng value.  :mad:  :censored:

It's only a "knock" if we let it be a knock. There's more than one way to skin a cat or sell an Action 1.

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31 minutes ago, Mmehdy said:

Thank you so much for your great response. In spirit, I agree with you. I would however limit staple replacement to only the ones similar to those replaced from incomplete GA from the same company and time period. Where I disagree with you is that where does it modifying  end and where does it begin. If we have a Blue,Green, and Purple label system. We need to stick to it. Slowly inch by inch if we give in to exceptions to the rule,  it will self destruct the color labeling system and  eventually destroy it. I ask you this: Do you want to destroy the color label system? First lets add staple replacement, cleaning etc..what happened to the gold old fashioned way of calling things what they really. "Unrestored" should mean just that , and not plus, plus plus. Now we even have two BLUE labels...this is getting insane.

My second question to you is: Why complicate this system even further. Look what we had added to the list or better put "ignoring" reality..pressing a book like flat pancake in which everybody is in for the $ or the cut and list is too many here.

 How about what is right is right and modifying a comic book is restoring it.

I am afraid, based upon reality I cannot agree with you if you want to keep the current CGC graded color  system. More changes or exceptions do NOT need  to happen.

 

Well, I am saying the labels should be disregarded entirely if we are talking about removing rusty staples from rare, uber key books. We have to stop for a moment and consider books like Action 1 should be an exception. ESPECIALLY Action 1. Not an exception in large piece replacement, sealing tears or massive color touch. Those conditions aren't a specific danger to whatever's left of the book. But removing an environment that will ultimately ruin other parts of the book by letting them remain. It might be romantic to see it as a natural progression toward its ultimate demise, but its ultimate demise is still many many decades, perhaps centuries away in the right conditions. We wouldn't let a cancer grow if we could remove it.

I really believe certain books should be removed from the criteria outlined by CGC, PGX or CBCS. Sometimes, rules are no longer applicable in certain situations. They become beside the point and in fact detrimental. Many people already believe that cover cleaning is not restoration. Then, we are told that "Well, it's restored! It's worth only 1/3 of one that hasn't had its cover cleaned. Boo hoo for you." Well, maybe not if I refuse to recognize that and sell it to someone of like mind who wants the book for the book itself.

Nevertheless. Rusty staples in an Action 1 need to be removed and replaced without punishing the value of the book. Sure. Replace them with staples from another book from the period if OCD demands it. That's tedious and weird to me. Note it if need be. "Staples Replaced". Blue, unrestored label. That wouldn't be the end of the world.

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1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

Well, I am saying the labels should be disregarded entirely if we are talking about removing rusty staples from rare, uber key books. We have to stop for a moment and consider books like Action 1 should be an exception. ESPECIALLY Action 1. Not an exception in large piece replacement, sealing tears or massive color touch. Those conditions aren't a specific danger to whatever's left of the book. But removing an environment that will ultimately ruin other parts of the book by letting them remain. It might be romantic to see it as a natural progression toward its ultimate demise, but its ultimate demise is still many many decades, perhaps centuries away in the right conditions. We wouldn't let a cancer grow if we could remove it.

I really believe certain books should be removed from the criteria outlined by CGC, PGX or CBCS. Sometimes, rules are no longer applicable in certain situations. They become beside the point and in fact detrimental. Many people already believe that cover cleaning is not restoration. Then, we are told that "Well, it's restored! It's worth only 1/3 of one that hasn't had its cover cleaned. Boo hoo for you." Well, maybe not if I refuse to recognize that and sell it to someone of like mind who wants the book for the book itself.

Nevertheless. Rusty staples in an Action 1 need to be removed and replaced without punishing the value of the book. Sure. Replace them with staples from another book from the period if OCD demands it. That's tedious and weird to me. Note it if need be. "Staples Replaced". Blue, unrestored label. That wouldn't be the end of the world.

The problem with your  solution is this: What is a Uber Key book...who choses, what criteria...why is your book better than mine...based on GPA, based upon rarity, based upon what is popular at the time. It cannot be done, in a fair and non-arbitrary method.

The current solution is not any better...destroy your book over time to preserve its current market value just to leave a  rusted staple original.

In my opinion, and I hate say this as over time I have been converted policy wise to this solution : eliminate the color coded grading all together and BASE the grade number overall with Subtractions for staple replacement, light or major restoration, pressing etc.

Let the grade number be the ultimate number with all factors considered, you could have a ultra restored A1 be graded 2.0 under that system...that would be the fairest of the fair for every GA/SA comic book...again with some side issues as to how much to subtract from each book depending on the amount or type of work done on the book itself.

This would result hopefully in the eliminating  all of the hatred for GA/SA  restored comic books  and incorporate all books into a uniform grading system and concentrate on the GA comic book itself, not the label.

Yes, you could replace the staples on A1..take a slight decrease in value, but not have the label color stigma and serious price value decease. 

 What do you think?

 

Edited by Mmehdy
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2 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

If we have a Blue,Green, and Purple label system. We need to stick to it..................................... Do you want to destroy the color label system?

 

2 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

I am afraid, based upon reality I cannot agree with you if you want to keep the current CGC graded color  system. More changes or exceptions do NOT need  to happen.

Hey Mitch;

Trying to figure out your trend of thought here or was you simply in a hurry and mistyped or dropped a word?  ???

Sounds as though you are saying that they need to keep the current multi-color label system in place and then you go on to say that you cannot agree with the boardie if he says that he wants to keep the current system.  :ohnoez:

If I was CGC and had the chance to do it all over again from the start, I would have simply adopted a uni-color label system utilizing both a 10-point condition grading system in conjunction with a 10-point restoration rating system.  This would have put all of the books, both unrestored and restored on a level playing field, as opposed to stigmatizing one group of them and thereby encouraging the current desecration or mutilation of them in order to avoid the much dread PLOD.  hm  (thumbsu

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15 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

Hey Mitch;

Trying to figure out your trend of thought here or was you simply in a hurry and mistyped or dropped a word?  ???

Sounds as though you are saying that they need to keep the current multi-color label system in place and then you go on to say that you cannot agree with the boardie if he says that he wants to keep the current system.  :ohnoez:

If I was CGC and had the chance to do it all over again from the start, I would have simply adopted a uni-color label system utilizing both a 10-point condition grading system in conjunction with a 10-point restoration rating system.  This would have put all of the books, both unrestored and restored on a level playing field, as opposed to stigmatizing one group of them and thereby encouraging the current desecration or mutilation of them in order to avoid the much dread PLOD.  hm  (thumbsu

Let me clarify..NO more adding to the list on permissible reality restoration which is convenient or profitable by CGC just to keep the blue label and stick to the existing label system and play fair. You wanna adjust  system  any more...get rid of the color label. CGC has the ability to change the rules...like you mentioned...do not see that happening. To many times the goalpost has been pushed back the CGC to name what is or what is not real restoration.

Edited by Mmehdy
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1 hour ago, Randall Ries said:

Well, I am saying the labels should be disregarded entirely if we are talking about removing rusty staples from rare, uber key books. We have to stop for a moment and consider books like Action 1 should be an exception. ESPECIALLY Action 1. Not an exception in large piece replacement, sealing tears or massive color touch. Those conditions aren't a specific danger to whatever's left of the book. But removing an environment that will ultimately ruin other parts of the book by letting them remain. It might be romantic to see it as a natural progression toward its ultimate demise, but its ultimate demise is still many many decades, perhaps centuries away in the right conditions. We wouldn't let a cancer grow if we could remove it.

I really believe certain books should be removed from the criteria outlined by CGC, PGX or CBCS. Sometimes, rules are no longer applicable in certain situations. They become beside the point and in fact detrimental. Many people already believe that cover cleaning is not restoration. Then, we are told that "Well, it's restored! It's worth only 1/3 of one that hasn't had its cover cleaned. Boo hoo for you." Well, maybe not if I refuse to recognize that and sell it to someone of like mind who wants the book for the book itself.

Nevertheless. Rusty staples in an Action 1 need to be removed and replaced without punishing the value of the book. Sure. Replace them with staples from another book from the period if OCD demands it. That's tedious and weird to me. Note it if need be. "Staples Replaced". Blue, unrestored label. That wouldn't be the end of the world.

 Pretty much ANY alteration is frowned upon.  

You can properly restore a classic automobile and greatly enhance its value.  If you don't it will probably rust out.  Old houses need restoration or they will deteriorate and ultimately disintegrate.  A beautifully restored old home is considered a thing of beauty.  Old Masters' paintings have often been restored over the centuries to the point where it's often difficult to say how much of the Master's original is still left.  Yet when they go to auction that doesn't seem to matter price wise.  Some nut takes a hammer to the David's toe and it's quickly and expertly repaired.  These are examples where restoration/preservation is not only acceptable, it's necessary and not frowned upon if it's done correctly.

This "hobby...errr business" isn't there yet.  Pretty much ANY alteration is frowned upon and is viewed as "damage".  It causes label colours to change and book values to plummet. In this day and age, label colour and a number closest to 10.0 are EVERYTHING.

So let's step back here and look at this Action 1 rusty staples situation.

Practically speaking, should those rusty staples be removed for the book's long term preservation?  Probably yes.  If not, the staples will continue to rust and likely start damaging the paper if they have not done so already.  

But...is it reasonable to expect the current owner or a future owner to replace those staples and take what could be a multimillion dollar loss as a result?  No - no one would do that.  Especially when the book, in its current state, continues to set record prices at auction.

So...until this hobby changes it's mind as to the relationship between restoration/preservation and valuation, I'm afraid that we'll all have to continue to watch those staples rust...

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4 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

There is  a 30 day window on those Action issues, and as Superman 1  was originally one shot Action reprint 1-6 issue so the inside last back page  Ac 14 cover would take time  to change would be in time for the second printing. There are 3 sales reporting  periods initial  ( first week), mid and final. So  Interestingly Superman 2 were also a reprint.  2/3 weeks out that is when you change to on sale now. According to DC  Superman #2 two had two printings with first printing a 900K an second at 250K. Superman #2 was the first GA comic book to break a million copies. If I was spending Big $$. I would want a first print.

My understanding is that all three printings of Superman #1 were done within a month. We have no idea when the 2nd print was ordered. The only thing we know for sure is that the "On Sale June 2nd" is not a 3rd print, and that "On Sale Now" is not a 1st print. We have no idea which text the 2nd print contained. That information was not in the publisher's files.

(and you are still making mistakes on the info. The first print was 500,000 copies, the 2nd was 250,000 and the 3rd was 150,000 - for a total of 900,000 copies)

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29 minutes ago, Crowzilla said:

My understanding is that all three printings of Superman #1 were done within a month. We have no idea when the 2nd print was ordered. The only thing we know for sure is that the "On Sale June 2nd" is not a 3rd print, and that "On Sale Now" is not a 1st print. We have no idea which text the 2nd print contained. That information was not in the publisher's files.

(and you are still making mistakes on the info. The first print was 500,000 copies, the 2nd was 250,000 and the 3rd was 150,000 - for a total of 900,000 copies)

I believe that his print numbers, in a post 6 hours ago, agree with your numbers...

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All these years of collecting old school and reading this last page above has really got me thinking :whistle:Why do we need a 3rd party grading ? we have 3 CGC-CBCS-PGX who are these guys other than other people grading our books :popcorn:New books yes but because we get 3 people looking at a book and saying its a 8.5 and its so. :makepoint:  Than on a resub it's a 9.0 what are we nuts the Action 1 8.5 will get worse in time ................... Restoration check and new books yes but i tell you i have seen 6.0's that look 4.0 by cover and 4.0's that look 6.0 so let me stop here :preach:

Edited by woowoo
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I say my superman 1 FFI says on sale June 2nd so what print is that :ohnoez:

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17 minutes ago, woowoo said:

I say my superman 1 FFI says on sale June 2nd so what print is that :ohnoez:

Sounds like it is the Famous First Edition rePRINT version that came out in 1974.  :makepoint:   :baiting:  lol

Edited by lou_fine
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9 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Sounds like it is the Famous First Edition rePRINT version that came out in 1974.  :makepoint:   :baiting:  lol

:whatthe: :facepalm: :roflmao:

Edited by woowoo
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Just now, woowoo said:

Yes 1974 reprints (thumbsu But these 2 are real 1st print runs h1.jpg.8cc6552fc6cb9ed168d1a9efb477d2a2.jpg:baiting:

It was a joke/reference to a thread.

As for the books. (worship)

I have all of the reprints in CGC 9.8 with the exception of the treasury as they do not grade those. Actually just got this one today to match the cards I already have. 20210408_153904.thumb.jpg.4de11205786895e309b6682620e7a340.jpg

Spoiler

scan0132.thumb.jpg.99f97c1c9027d08dcae549d40743cff6.jpg.383a5c848fb62df5a81646632dc38d2e.jpgscan0210.jpg.ad762b8c08690402f7af177920a326cb.thumb.jpg.78495bbbe9e3d5d805a23516e6a3fcbb.jpgscan0138.thumb.jpg.669ca6e576f691ac97fbdb752d482197.jpg.fa13e26131599bcad50da66296631eb4.jpg1663422140_IMG_20190428_1701460902.thumb.jpg.f01d3e291c8cf3f52d7055849438e875.jpgscan0128.thumb.jpg.aa057de6d818288ef0fd08a3ae48b846.jpg.6a31accc6e049ee5631538c13c122837.jpg

Also not pictured (still have to scan)  1976 G.H.Wood also called the sleeping bag, 1983 peanut butter, 1987 nestle direct and newsstand 1988, black box price, 1991 fifty cent, 1992 ten cent, 1992 Jerry Siegel DF, 1992 $1, Regular non error USPS.

In  addition to those I have several foreign AC#1 but none of them would hit 9.8 so I have kept them raw. 

They are the only ones within my price range. Still love them.. 

Yours are gorgeous!  (worship):applause::cloud9: Thank you for sharing!

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8 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

Pretty much ANY alteration is frowned upon and is viewed as "damage". 

But...is it reasonable to expect the current owner or a future owner to replace those staples and take what could be a multimillion dollar loss as a result?  No - no one would do that.  Especially when the book, in its current state, continues to set record prices at auction.

Well, the book is worth millions now. I don't believe it would take a multi million dollar hit. I know what the current criteria is.

My personal view is that it's stupidity to leave the staples in to CAUSE further damage while claiming removing and replacing them is damage. It's an Action 1 in 8.5. It's stupid to expect that particular book or any of the major keys to be held hostage by a rule that is a blanket rule for all books.

That's just me. If I spent 8.5 mill, those staples would be replaced and value be damned. If I offered it for sale at some point I would disclose that. If some buyer gave me push back, I would explain what I did and why. If they lowballed me, I'd keep the book. Anyone who has that kind of money to throw around isn't going to quibble over staples.

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Some really interesting points raised above about preserving something as historically important as an Action 1.

Even if I was a millionaire it could be way too stressful to own such a piece!

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the difference between an Action 1 and an oil painting is greater than between comics and cars. Or any other mass fabricated object that attains values over time by collectors. Any copy of Action 1 could disappear and the concept of the value of an "Action 1" would not change. Just one less copy in existence.  And there'd are still "plenty" to go around to make a market. The art market has long ago accepted that a one-of-a-kind painting or piece of art keeps its value intact if and when it needs work done due to damage to it.  Cars are closer to comics IMO.  Many were created all at once to be used (driven, or read) and over time, most fell away as a collector's market grew for whats left.  I dont claim to know the ins and outs of the Collectible car market all that much, but perhaps since cars were created to be utilized, not collected, just a tune up and a car wash here and there, and were often damaged in the course of their functional lives, and then repaired, their markets have readily accepted repairs/restoration, certainly expert restoration.  But isn't there still a variance in values depending on how much was done to the car and who did the work?   Comics are conceivably on this same path, and maybe we WILL throw away much of the heavy penalty for whats currently classified as "restored" comics someday as the hobby continues to mature. But buyers MUST be made aware of what was done.  We are where we are because resto was a dark unspoken manipulation that burned too many of us. (I dont want it near children! Thats an infamia!)

So if this rusty staple copy turns to brown mush inside its slab in decades to some, or just gets an ugly spine in 2 places, it only affects the owner, which is why this copy has an asterisk and IS a risk to its owners investment. The other copies will be fine. Untouched our comics will last a lot longer than ours kids lifetimes. We aren't keeping them unprotected anymore, and their crappy paper is still strong and supple after 80 years when given a chance. Our collecting mindset and value system has always been about the more perfect the preservation absent any manipulation. Since we have seen some practices that improve their appearance accepted, who is to say how many more changes to our value system will occur?  

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