Action Comics #1 - 3.25 Mil new highest sale!
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261 posts in this topic

9 hours ago, onlyweaknesskryptonite said:
9 hours ago, woowoo said:

It was a joke/reference to a thread.

As for the books. (worship)

I know it was a joke (thumbsuI don't have those books anymore (thumbsu

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40 minutes ago, Aman619 said:

the difference between an Action 1 and an oil painting is greater than between comics and cars. Or any other mass fabricated object that attains values over time by collectors. Any copy of Action 1 could disappear and the concept of the value of an "Action 1" would not change. Just one less copy in existence.  And there'd are still "plenty" to go around to make a market. The art market has long ago accepted that a one-of-a-kind painting or piece of art keeps its value intact if and when it needs work done due to damage to it.  

The art market is also much much much more tolerant of conservation of pieces that are NOT "one-of-a-kind," such as woodblock prints - one of my other collecting interests.  In fact, the woodblock prints I collect are very analogous to Action 1 as they were printed in 1930 and there are less than 100 copies of each of the 35 different images (think issue numbers) in the set (think title) in existence.  No one is going to suggest that it is better to leave a progressive damaging condition (such as mold) untreated when the treatment can improve the lifetime (and appearance) of the print.  The print will be worth less untreated than treated.

Edited by sfcityduck
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it may be that in time, as we "original generation" comic collectors pass on the hobby to the newer collectors, coming to comics from other collectibles with different views on "restoration/conservation" our ways of thinking will no longer hold sway. And comics will be treated similarly to those markets that embrace it.

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15 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

The problem with your  solution is this: What is a Uber Key book...who choses, what criteria...why is your book better than mine...based on GPA, based upon rarity, based upon what is popular at the time. It cannot be done, in a fair and non-arbitrary method.

The current solution is not any better...destroy your book over time to preserve its current market value just to leave a  rusted staple original.

In my opinion, and I hate say this as over time I have been converted policy wise to this solution : eliminate the color coded grading all together and BASE the grade number overall with Subtractions for staple replacement, light or major restoration, pressing etc.

Let the grade number be the ultimate number with all factors considered, you could have a ultra restored A1 be graded 2.0 under that system...that would be the fairest of the fair for every GA/SA comic book...again with some side issues as to how much to subtract from each book depending on the amount or type of work done on the book itself.

This would result hopefully in the eliminating  all of the hatred for GA/SA  restored comic books  and incorporate all books into a uniform grading system and concentrate on the GA comic book itself, not the label.

Yes, you could replace the staples on A1..take a slight decrease in value, but not have the label color stigma and serious price value decease. 

 What do you think?

 

I actually love this! Never heard of someone suggesting this before.....

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5 hours ago, Randall Ries said:
15 hours ago, pemart1966 said:

But...is it reasonable to expect the current owner or a future owner to replace those staples and take what could be a multimillion dollar loss as a result?  

Well, the book is worth millions now. I don't believe it would take a multi million dollar hit.

Sadly but not necessarily rightly, this is the EXACT reason why the book would take a multi-million dollar hit.  :(

It's simple arithmetic as Restored books (and Cinserved to a lesser extent) always get a sizable percentage hit when they are sold, and this percentage seems to increase even more for the higher grade copies.  So, if you have a HG copy of a book that's worth quite a few million dollars in unrestored condition, the current marketplace sentiment will surely knock more than a million dollars or two off it by the time it's all said and done.  :cry:

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2 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Sadly but not necessarily rightly, this is the EXACT reason why the book would take a multi-million dollar hit.  :(

It's simple arithmetic as Restored books (and Cinserved to a lesser extent) always get a sizable percentage hit when they are sold, and this percentage seems to increase even more for the higher grade copies.  So, if you have a HG copy of a book that's worth quite a few million dollars in unrestored condition, the current marketplace sentiment will surely knock more than a million dollars or two off it by the time it's all said and done.  :cry:

If the current owner of the new record Action 1 replaced the staples with period appropriate staples, there would be folks lining up to buy it at a $1M discount.  Why?  Because we all know that the staples are not part of the value of the book.  They are the only separate and replaceable part of a comic.

My guess is that CGC will change their views as soon as CCS stocks up on enough vintage staples to meet demand.  Why?  Because there are a lot of comics out there with staples suffering from oxidation.

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46 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Sadly but not necessarily rightly, this is the EXACT reason why the book would take a multi-million dollar hit.  :(

It's simple arithmetic as Restored books (and Cinserved to a lesser extent) always get a sizable percentage hit when they are sold, and this percentage seems to increase even more for the higher grade copies.  So, if you have a HG copy of a book that's worth quite a few million dollars in unrestored condition, the current marketplace sentiment will surely knock more than a million dollars or two off it by the time it's all said and done.  :cry:

Yes. I see what you mean. What I mean is I would put that aside if I were to sell an Action 1. Lose a mill or 2 to try to save it? Not likely. And if I were forced to keep it because of replaced staples? So be it. That is a steep penalty to pay for replacing rusty staples. That were causing damage to the book. Leave them and the grade will eventually come down along with the value. At some point, someone will balk at buying it because the rust is now very noticeable. Even if it's label says "8.5". They will look at say "Well, NOW it's a 6.0". So, where's the difference? It's an Action 1. Concessions must be made for the grandfather of all super hero books. It started it all. I am sure I could find a like minded buyer. We as owners are the only ones locking ourselves into a set of criteria someone simply pulled out of a hat. I get pieces add, tear seals to cover, extensive color tough. Not staples. That's silly. 1st thing I would do if I had bought the book is have the staples replaced by a document restorer then put it back in the slab or a top loader.

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16 hours ago, Mmehdy said:

The problem with your  solution is this: What is a Uber Key book...who choses, what criteria...why is your book better than mine...based on GPA, based upon rarity, based upon what is popular at the time. It cannot be done, in a fair and non-arbitrary method.

The current solution is not any better...destroy your book over time to preserve its current market value just to leave a  rusted staple original.

In my opinion, and I hate say this as over time I have been converted policy wise to this solution : eliminate the color coded grading all together and BASE the grade number overall with Subtractions for staple replacement, light or major restoration, pressing etc.

Let the grade number be the ultimate number with all factors considered, you could have a ultra restored A1 be graded 2.0 under that system...that would be the fairest of the fair for every GA/SA comic book...again with some side issues as to how much to subtract from each book depending on the amount or type of work done on the book itself.

This would result hopefully in the eliminating  all of the hatred for GA/SA  restored comic books  and incorporate all books into a uniform grading system and concentrate on the GA comic book itself, not the label.

Yes, you could replace the staples on A1..take a slight decrease in value, but not have the label color stigma and serious price value decease. 

 What do you think?

 

I like that idea. But wouldn't collectors start obsessing over A1, A2, B1, B2 etc? It would be much easier to keep the color system and simply admit replacing rusty staples is better for a given book if they are indeed rusty and discount those as being restored. I don't even agree with the married cover or wraps and centerfold thing. For me, if I had the money and wanted to buy an Act1, I would pass over the book if it had rusty staples. What we are being asked to do is contribute to the sped up decay of a very important book. Couldn't even use a neutralizer to stop the process w/o it being considered resto. Heck with that.  In fact, I'm not sure how this particular book was awarded an 8.5 BECAUSE of the rusty staples.

I could EASILY live with that for an Act 1, Det 27 or Bat 1 etc. Sleep like a baby rubbing the slab under my nose while sucking my thumb.

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1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

If the current owner of the new record Action 1 replaced the staples with period appropriate staples, there would be folks lining up to buy it at a $1M discount.  Why?  Because we all know that the staples are not part of the value of the book.  They are the only separate and replaceable part of a comic.

Yes, although you and I and the other long time comic book collectors would understand this point, do you really believe that buyers in today's label centric marketplace would be willing to dismiss this factor if the book ended up residing in either a quasi-grey/blue slab or dare we even say, one of those much dreaded Restored PLOD slabs.  They certainly haven't done so to this point in time yet.   :fear: 

Especially since today's label chasers are really focused on only two things when they decide how wide they are willing to open their wallets for a book.  Namely, the color of the label and that big big number on the top left hand corner of the book, and sadly, less so than the underlying book itself.  :frown:

Like I said earlier, this complete aversion although it has certainly subsided in recent years, was due to CGC's mistake from the get go when they decided to implement the use of a multi-color label system to differentiate the restored books from the unrestored books as it served only to stigmatize them and exacerbated the difference in value between the two of them.  Once in place and the collecting base got used to it, it was far too late to make changes as clearly evident by Borock's failed attempt to change it back to an uni-color label system back in 2005.  Borock was simply trying to counteract the impact of the multi-color labels which had unfortunately resulted in the unintended consequences of decimating the value of restored books at the time which was clearly not their intention.  I remember all of the belly aching and cries of scams and fraud if CGC switched to an uni-color label system with both a 10-point condition grading system in conjunction with a 10-restoration rating system.  Boardies were complaining that nobody would be able to understand a 10-point restoration rating system where R-0 was unrestored and R-10 was extensive restoration and claimed that it would serve only to allow scammers to foist restored books into an unsuspecting marketplace as unrestored books.  They claimed the only sure way to tell an restored book from an unrestored book was to use color labels like how school age children in Grade 1 would learn their numbers by using color blocks.  And yet we have in place a 10-point condition grading system whereby collectors seem to have no problems at all differentiating a CGC 9.8 graded book from a CGC 1.8 graded book.  Go figure that!!!  hm  :screwy:

 

1 hour ago, sfcityduck said:

My guess is that CGC will change their views as soon as CCS stocks up on enough vintage staples to meet demand.  Why?  Because there are a lot of comics out there with staples suffering from oxidation.

Sad to say, but nothing at all would surprise me when it comes to CGC making changes and coming up with new additional revenue generating schemes to add to both their top and bottom lines in order to keep their CCG ownership happy.  In fact, I would not even be surprised if micro-trimming (i.e. not trimming which is a completely different animal) comes into play one day and the exact same arguments end up being trotted out as the ones that were used when they decided after the fact to allow pressing because it is really nothing more than "maximiaztion of potential".  No doubt, all of the speculators and label chasers will then be running down to the nearest loonie store as fast as their little feet can take them to buy the sharpest pair of scissors that they can find.  lol  :censored:

Edited by lou_fine
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25 minutes ago, Randall Ries said:

Yes. I see what you mean. What I mean is I would put that aside if I were to sell an Action 1. Lose a mill or 2 to try to save it? Not likely. And if I were forced to keep it because of replaced staples? So be it. That is a steep penalty to pay for replacing rusty staples. That were causing damage to the book. Leave them and the grade will eventually come down along with the value. At some point, someone will balk at buying it because the rust is now very noticeable. Even if it's label says "8.5". They will look at say "Well, NOW it's a 6.0". So, where's the difference? It's an Action 1. Concessions must be made for the grandfather of all super hero books. It started it all. I am sure I could find a like minded buyer. We as owners are the only ones locking ourselves into a set of criteria someone simply pulled out of a hat. I get pieces add, tear seals to cover, extensive color tough. Not staples. That's silly. 1st thing I would do if I had bought the book is have the staples replaced by a document restorer then put it back in the slab or a top loader.

Look, if the only difference between a Universal 8.5 and a Conserved 8.5 is that the staples were replaced (or removed, cleaned, and re-attached), the discount is going to end up being very very low.  That's the entire reason that CGC added the "conserved" option.  It's intent is to aid the aid the maturation of the comic market to understand that certain "work" done on comics is NOT stigmatizing.  I have complete faith that the market will soon understand this.  CGC/CCS are are clearly on a mission to accomplish this goal.  I believe that the three most likely things to happen on the "restoration vs. conservations vs. Universal" front are the following, probably in this Order:

(1) The market will realize that staple cleaning or replacement is a necessary conservation that will not impact pricing;

(2) The market will realize that color touch is a defect which can be accounted for within a "Universal" grade; whereas removal of color touch is a form of vandalism that also can be accounted for with a lesser "Universal" grade;

(3) Ultimately, Mitch is right, and there will be a Universal grading scale which factors in all defects, even if they are defects like color touch and pieces being added, just as if they were tape and rips and color loss type defects which are now factored in.  

Why?  Because it makes sense and because CGC/CCS will make money off the evolution of perceptions they have begun.

Edited by sfcityduck
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2 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Look, if the only difference between a Universal 8.5 and a Conserved 8.5 is that the staples were replaced (or removed, cleaned, and re-attached), the discount is going to end up being very very low.  That's the entire reason that CGC added the "conserved" option.  It's intent is to aid the aid the maturation of the comic market to understandthat certain "work" done on comics is NOT stigmatizing.  I have complete faith that market will understand this.  CGC/CCS are are clearly on a mission to accomplish this goal.  I believe that the three most likely things to happen on the "restoration vs. conservations vs. Universal" front are the following, probably in this Order:

(1) The market will realize that staple cleaning or replacement are a necessary conservation that will not impact pricing;

(2) The market will realize that color touch is a defect which can be accounted for within a "Universal" grade; whereas removal of color touch is a form of vandalism that also can be accounted for with a lesser "Universal" grade;

(3) Ultimately, Mitch is right, and there will be a Universal grading scale which factors in all defects, even if they are defects like color touch and pieces being added just as if they were tape and rips and color loss type defects factored in.  

Why?  Because it makes sense and because CGC/CCS will make money off the evolution of perceptions they have begun.

Perfect. You nail it by saying necessary conservation. I have to imagine CGC/CSS MUST listen to feedback from the actual collectors. I hope they do. Many of them make sense.

I like the point you make about removing color touch as well. Removing color touch probably makes a book look worse than it did previously. Awful.

I love the books more than I love money, so I get a little hard headed about stuff like this. If there is something damaging the book, it's going. Conversely, if I found a low grade copy of Act 1, I wouldn't touch anything by way of sealing rips or replacing pieces. it is what it is. But not going to let something damage it further on purpose.

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11 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Yes, although you and I and the other long time comic book collectors would understand this point, do you really believe that buyers in today's label centric marketplace would be willing to dismiss this factor if the book ended up residing in either a quasi-grey/blue slab or dare we even say, one of those much dreaded Restored PLOD slabs.  They certainly haven't donw so to this point in time yet.   :fear: 

Especially since today's label chasers are really focused on only two things when they decide how wide they are willing to open their wallets for a book.  Namely, the color of the label and that big big number on the top left hand corner of the book, and sadly, less so than the underlying book itself.  :frown:

Like I said earlier, this complete aversion although it has certainly subsided in recent years, was due to CGC's mistake from the get go when they decided to implement the use of a multi-color label system to differentiate the restored books from the unrestored books as it served only to stigmatize them and exacerbated the difference in value between the two of them.  Once in place and the collecting base got used to it, it was far too late to make changes as clearly evident by Borock's failed attempt to change it back to an uni-color label system back in 2005, because the multi-color labels resulted in the unintended consequences of decimating the value of restored books at the time which was clearly not their intention.  I remember all of the belly aching and cries of scams and fraud if CGC switched to an uni-color label system with both a 10-point condition grading system in conjunction with a 10-restoration rating system.  Boardies were complaining that nobody would be able to understand a 10-point restoration rating system where R-0 was unrestored and R-10 was extensive restoration and claimed that it would serve only to allow scammers to foist restored books into an unsuspecting marketplace as unrestored books.  They claimed the only sure way to tell an restored book from an unrestored book was to use color labels like how school age children in Grade 1 would learn their numbers by using color blocks.  And yet we have in place a 10-point condition grading system whereby collectors seem to have no problems at all differentiating a CGC 9.8 graded book from a CGC 1.8 graded book.  Go figure that!!!  hm  :screwy:

 

Sad to say, but nothing at all would surprise me when it comes to CGC making changes and coming up with new additional revenue generating schemes to add to both their top and bottom lines in order to keep their CCG ownership happy.  In fact, I would not even be surprised if micro-trimming (i.e. not trimming which is a completely different animal) comes into play one day and the exact same arguments end up being trotted out as the ones that were used when they decided after the fact to allow pressing because it is really nothing more than "maximiaztion of potential".  No doubt, all of the speculators and label chasers will then be running down to the nearest loonie store as fast as their little feet can take them to buy the sharpest pair of scissors that they can find.  lol  :censored:

Possibly. I consider trimming a fraud. Frayed edges aren't going to damage a book. I certainly wouldn't want to see us heading backward. I feel adjustments must be made sometimes.

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9 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

Look, if the only difference between a Universal 8.5 and a Conserved 8.5 is that the staples were replaced (or removed, cleaned, and re-attached), the discount is going to end up being very very low.  That's the entire reason that CGC added the "conserved" option.  It's intent is to aid the aid the maturation of the comic market to understandthat certain "work" done on comics is NOT stigmatizing.  I have complete faith that market will understand this. 

The real astute buyers were the ones who were wise enough to know this early on and brought up a lot of the SP Restored books at relatively dirt cheap prices way back in the day when the marketplace simply looked at the color of the label and paid absolutely no attention at all to the type and extent of the work that had been done.  These early buyers have done very very well from either a paper profit point of view as their books would now qualify for a Conserved label, or from a real profit point of view by reversing some of these easily reversible work that had been done and having the book regraded slightly lower, but now at least in a blue Universal slab.  hm  (thumbsu

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2 hours ago, Daveb25 said:

Replace the staples, put original staples in bag, tape bag to slab. Problem solved. If the next owned is label centric and wants it back as it was can just put the original staples back. 

interesting take, just the removal from the book might get the "conserved" grade,which I think everyone agrees would decrease the value of this book by at least 1 million dollars and I do not see this changing any time soon

Edited by Mmehdy
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Regarding rusty staples my experience of collecting UK Digest comics is due to conditions in the UK leading to a lot of rust on staples removing them was essential. It has led to this being considered not overly negative in value. I’m not an expert by any means on this subject but input by leading UK collectors might be useful for this discussion. I agree if the staple is going to harm the comic then removal to conserve is a must. Seeing the post of the sale of flecks of comics when a brittle Action 1 was broken up would tend to support it is the pages and their quality that matters.

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In my opinion, the conserved/restored effect on value debate usually fails to acknowledge a likely truth.  That is, every comic book of significant value has (probably) undergone some manipulation or beautification (amateur, professional or both) in an attempt to improve its appearance and grade.  As the value of the book increases so does the economic incentive to improve its appearance.  1) The fact that grading companies do not notate certain kinds of manipulation is hypocrisy in our system (my opinion again). 2) Furthermore, the fact that certain kinds of manipulation are not detectable is merely a weakness in our grading methods.

Consider for a moment the following idea:  CGC begins noting on the label that a book has been pressed and/or dry cleaned. For any given grade, would a buyer pay the same price for a book with such a notation on its label as book without that notation?

Under current grading standards, buyers do pay the same.  But, IF the label was changed.... so would our pricing.

It is all about the economics of efficient markets.  More information leads to better decision making.

The simplicity of a color coded label and a three tier system should give way to some sort of document with meaningful details/photos of the type/extent/quality of the work. Then factors such as, who did the work (Cicconi, Sanderson, Heft, Nelson, DeChellis or someone with a t-shirt press and a handheld Conair humidifier etc.) become much more important.  The buyer spending thousands would like to know this information as much as the buyer spending millions, and both would probably would pay for it.

I believe if we started looking at these kinds of details, we would start caring less about simple colors/descriptors.  

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24 minutes ago, BuyTheRedCar said:

1) The fact that grading companies do not notate certain kinds of manipulation is hypocrisy in our system (my opinion again). 

Consider for a moment the following idea:  CGC begins noting on the label that a book has been pressed and/or dry cleaned. For any given grade, would a buyer pay the same price for a book with such a notation on its label as book without that notation?

At this point of time in the grading game, the chance of this happening is absolutely zero as it is a key part of their top and bottom lines.  :(

Actually, if you think about it, this was most likely all part of their business model right from the get go.  All we had to do was watched what happen in the other collectibles field before the CCG ownership took their game and transferred it over here to the comic book hobby.  I have been told by certain boardies that this game was really ramped up once Heritage came onto the scene with their overlapping ownership.  hm  (shrug)

I believe the circle was then pretty much complete once they acquired Classics Incorporated from Matt back in 2012 and what you call as hypocrisy and what many of us saw as potential conflict of interest, I am sure the CCG ownership simply viewed it as business synergies waiting to be unlocked and what they call vertical intergration in the business world by providing an end to end solution for the various key processes within the collectibles comic book marketplace.  :devil:  :flipbait:

Edited by lou_fine
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Just a note to say that the imminent destruction of this copy of Action 1 is wildly exaggerated.  I saw the book 30 years ago.  And from the pics of it today, it doesn’t look any worse. It’s been carefully cared for most of its life, from a bank vault to a slab... and will be from now on.  it was even treated to a few Florida vacations at a very nice Humidity controlled spa where it was pampered by the staff day and night. It’s not falling apart any time soon.  Rust is not a living thing like tartar on your teeth.  It’s a chemical reaction. It needs humidity to “grow” and this book won’t be left out in the rain ever.

and geez, there’s nothing sacred about an Action 1.  You hold it in your hands and flip through it, and guess what, it’s just a comic book.  It’s kind of a letdown really.

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