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John Byrne Xmen
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42 posts in this topic

16 hours ago, RBerman said:

I mean, you're not wrong. But I can totally understand his desire to tell the story he wants to tell. He's willing to tell it completely for free as it is, so clearly this is about creativity, not money.

He knows darn well that he is involved in a business, part of which includes long term plans and control of the characters he wants to write. What if he wants to take the characters where Marvel doesn’t want them to go? What if he decided to make, say, Cyclops, a crazy bigot? You don’t think Marvel should have the right to say no? Perhaps Marvel knows what he wants to do with the characters and doesn’t like it already? 
 

When Didio ran DC, he decided to have an origin for the Phantom Stranger making him Judas. The idea turned off a lot of readers, pissed off a lot of fans, and also damaged the air of mystique surrounding the character. Maybe Superman was Adolph Hitler in an earlier life, see what I mean? Some things are bad.
 

So no, he should not have full creative control.

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2 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

He knows darn well that he is involved in a business, part of which includes long term plans and control of the characters he wants to write. What if he wants to take the characters where Marvel doesn’t want them to go? What if he decided to make, say, Cyclops, a crazy bigot? You don’t think Marvel should have the right to say no? Perhaps Marvel knows what he wants to do with the characters and doesn’t like it already? 
 

When Didio ran DC, he decided to have an origin for the Phantom Stranger making him Judas. The idea turned off a lot of readers, pissed off a lot of fans, and also damaged the air of mystique surrounding the character. Maybe Superman was Adolph Hitler in an earlier life, see what I mean? Some things are bad.
 

So no, he should not have full creative control.

And indeed, in the very first issue of Elsewhen, there was originally a panel in which Wolverine tickled Kitty so hard that she phased out of the Blackbird and fell into the Savage Land. Byrne listened to friends who told him that was creepy, so he changed the panel. So sure, there's the danger of creators going off-brand with characters they don't own. And we could name many times it happened anyway over the years in actual published comics where editors were asleep at the wheel or made a bad call, or where the writer was also the editor. 

Things like that happen in a collaborative enterprise like comics, and Marvel has every right to mitigate their exposure by demanding veto. Just as Byrne can recall times that editorial power was abused to say, force The Beyonder into multiple consecutive issues of every Marvel book, disrupting stories already in progress. So ultimately it comes down to trust, and in this case, the trust obviously is not there.

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21 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

Really? No ego problem there, I see. 

Byrne wanted to be left alone to do the story he wanted to do. After C.B. Cebulski first indicated to him that that would be the case, the terms changed. Creative control was what John wanted over the project. Editorial interference is why he left the last X-book he worked on, so he didn't want to go through that again. Big ego? Sure. But lots of creators want to have final say over their stories. I don't blame him at all for walking away from a situation that would have frustrated him.

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2 hours ago, fsumavila said:

Byrne wanted to be left alone to do the story he wanted to do. After C.B. Cebulski first indicated to him that that would be the case, the terms changed. Creative control was what John wanted over the project. Editorial interference is why he left the last X-book he worked on, so he didn't want to go through that again. Big ego? Sure. But lots of creators want to have final say over their stories. I don't blame him at all for walking away from a situation that would have frustrated him.

If Byrne wants to walk away from a project, well, that’s his business. Perhaps I misunderstood, but someone’s comment about Byrne not being willing to publish “these books” disturbed me. Is that a reference to something John did previously, or these new stories? If it is old stuff being repackaged, that does bother me.

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7 hours ago, Rick2you2 said:

If Byrne wants to walk away from a project, well, that’s his business. Perhaps I misunderstood, but someone’s comment about Byrne not being willing to publish “these books” disturbed me. Is that a reference to something John did previously, or these new stories? If it is old stuff being repackaged, that does bother me.

I believe that was a reference to Byrne's new Elsewhen material. Byrne does not get a say in the umpteenth repackaging of his original X-Men work, which comes around again every few years.

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Big Byrne fan here. I awaited so eagerly his XMHY series and I was so disappointed that I probably prefer to have a glimpse at the nice Elsewhen pencils every now and then rather than being disappointed the second time over.

Carlo 

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5 hours ago, Carlo M said:

 I awaited so eagerly his XMHY series and I was so disappointed that I probably prefer to have a glimpse at the nice Elsewhen pencils ... rather than being disappointed the second time over.

Carlo 

Tom Palmer is a powerful inker over Byrne 2c in 'X-men Hidden Years' maxi-series. Byrne-fanatics are still visualizing tighter Austin inks or even Dan Green (Avengers) inks.

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As for Byrne/Palmer Hidden Years pages, there is something cool about them that didn't quite translate to the printed page. The original art seems much better in person.. I know that is often the case, but with these little gems it's especially true : ) 

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So many questions, I will try to limit myself to on topic.  Scott, great job.  I don’t have a discerning enough eye or nearly enough knowledge, but has Byrne’s pencils changed over time?  


More general question for anyone:  I get why you wouldn’t give an artist or writer complete creative control, but this brings up a non art question I have.  I sort of got sick of reading comics when they massively amped up power levels to ridiculous levels.  I understand why this happens from an individual creator’s standpoint, but I don’t know why it is allowed to happen. I read about the Hulk having enough power to crush a planet by stomping his foot, or how many universes Thor can destroy ( I read people talk about this stuff, not the actual comics, so I could be wrong about these details), but they are not useful (I don’t think) for movies or other places where the “real money” is made, so why is this allowed? I was fine with a clear pecking order with a few abstracts on top, but why hasn’t someone like Kevin Feige said they want characters and story lines that can be used for movies and knock off all this totally over the top stuff (and if everyone loves this, sorry if I’m just being grumpy)?

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On 4/12/2021 at 12:18 PM, JollyComics said:

What an incredible work!

It seemed that you have few layers of the artwork.  Pencil on artboard, Ink on Acentne sheet or transparency paper?  Tell us how he processed the artwork?

+1 for another who wants to understand the process 

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8 minutes ago, Yurgo said:

A scan of the original pencils were made and sent to Scott. He printed a gray lined copy and inked it.

And -for the lawyers- that present a very interesting legal question regarding "rights". Or not, and the answer is super simple?

Let's say Marvel does want to published "the Scott version" but has no interest (for whatever reason) in including JB in this matter at all.

Does JB have any "reproduction rights" in a scan printout that was inked by somebody else and that version's rights were negotiated out for payment?

If so, who does he go after - everybody, just the dude that did the scanning, just the dude that modified the work (Scott) or Marvel for monetizing it with publication?

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36 minutes ago, Yurgo said:

A scan of the original pencils were made and sent to Scott. He printed a gray lined copy and inked it.

Very helpful. I suppose when printed, he can print at the same size. Or, scale it larger so he can add details to tires.

Thank you.

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On 4/13/2021 at 4:58 AM, Rick2you2 said:

He knows darn well that he is involved in a business, part of which includes long term plans and control of the characters he wants to write. What if he wants to take the characters where Marvel doesn’t want them to go? What if he decided to make, say, Cyclops, a crazy bigot? You don’t think Marvel should have the right to say no? Perhaps Marvel knows what he wants to do with the characters and doesn’t like it already? 
 

When Didio ran DC, he decided to have an origin for the Phantom Stranger making him Judas. The idea turned off a lot of readers, pissed off a lot of fans, and also damaged the air of mystique surrounding the character. Maybe Superman was Adolph Hitler in an earlier life, see what I mean? Some things are bad.
 

So no, he should not have full creative control.

Oh, Didio. That man did a lot of damage to a number of "less popular" characters that still had diehard fans. For me, it was Batgirl (Cassandra Cain), who went from having a big heart, firmly believing in justice & good, and recently began learning to read and write after adjusting to spoken language not too long before, to going straight villain, attacking old allies, and being fluent in Navajo which she apparently used to use for secret communication in written letters to Robin...in the span of 1 year in continuity.

Regarding Byrne's X-Men, if Marvel put it under their "new" What If label like Zdarsky's Spider-Man: Spider’s Shadow he could do whatever he wants. Well, to a degree of course, but it could work, I think?

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On 4/13/2021 at 4:58 AM, Rick2you2 said:

He knows darn well that he is involved in a business, part of which includes long term plans and control of the characters he wants to write. What if he wants to take the characters where Marvel doesn’t want them to go? What if he decided to make, say, Cyclops, a crazy bigot? You don’t think Marvel should have the right to say no? Perhaps Marvel knows what he wants to do with the characters and doesn’t like it already? 
 

When Didio ran DC, he decided to have an origin for the Phantom Stranger making him Judas. The idea turned off a lot of readers, pissed off a lot of fans, and also damaged the air of mystique surrounding the character. Maybe Superman was Adolph Hitler in an earlier life, see what I mean? Some things are bad.
 

So no, he should not have full creative control.

The problem with this thinking is that work is already done. So if Marvel likes what they see, publish it. If they don’t, the relationship ends.
 

I really think this is John swan song. Whatever form it is, we are lucky to be able to see it, for free.

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