eBay Sellers of Okajima's Beware! 1 1

[sfcityduck]

Just an FYI that sellers of Okajima pedigree comics on eBay might be facing the risk of their auctions being halted on eBay.  

In the interests of full disclosure, I have bought both paintings created in internment camps on eBay and a comic (not Okajima) which includes the owner's internment address in the book.  I do not believe that, in all instances or even most instances, the trade in art or comics which come out of the internment camp context is improper or that auctions of those pieces should be halted.  To the contrary, I think that collectors are responsible for the preservation of many internment camp related items, and that the Okajima comics most likely fall into that category.  And, frankly, it is my understanding that both dealers in art and also activists concerned with the trade in internment camp art also have had a nuanced view on these issues.  I personally think that there is a significant difference between a comic book bought in an internment camp and art made by an internee. 

Activists may disagree, especially as Okajima pedigree comics are selling for many multiples over other comparable issues solely because of their internment association.  So the recent banning by eBay of an auction and the on-going discussions between eBay and activists are something that sellers of Okajima comics better keep an eye on.

eBay's decision to halt an auction last week may be a harbinger for concern about selling Okajima comics on eBay (and possibly other venues).  Here's why:  There has been a controversy about the trade in Japanese internment camp art.  The controversy started over a Liveauctioneers auction by Rago auction house in 2015 of approximately 450 (my best recollection) pieces of art made by internees.  The internees had given the art to historian Allen Eaton while he was writing his 1952 book "Beauty Behind Barbed Wire: The Arts of the Japanese in Our War Relocation Camps," the first book on internment art.  I have heard that Eaton told at least some internees that the art would be put in a museum.  Instead, Eaton died and his daughter sold the collection to a collector, John Ryan of Conn., who held the collection for a number of years before putting the collection up on Rago.  

When the auction went public, families of internees who had contributed art to Eaton were outraged that art they were told would end up in a museum was being sold in the collectors market and was about to be broken up.  Activists (rightly in my opinion) became involved, and the auction was halted by Liveauctioneers.  Ultimately, there was a happy ending as the art ended up at the Japanese American National Museum.  The acquisition of the collection was announced at a dinner honoring George Takei (Sulu and often a comic convention guest over the years) who had himself been interned during WWII.  He commented at the time: “We’re very happy that rather than disappearing in some private collection we can share this with the audience and learn from the artifacts and artwork and get a better understanding of that grievous chapter in American history. It’s not just a Japanese America story. It’s a story about American democracy."

One of the prominent activists to play a role in stopping that auction was Nancy Ukai who now helms up two projects - a facebook page "Japanese American History: Not For Sale" and, relevant to comic collectors, the 50objects.org project.  As has been discussed on this site, 50objects.org was looking at the Okajima comics as one of the "50 objects" for their project.  Jpepx78 has written on comic books and the internment and I recommend this thread:  

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/profile/8190-jpepx78/

 

Fast forward to today.  eBay has, for the first time, bowed to pressure brought by Nancy Ukai and others to halt the sale of art created during the internment on its site.  The art in question was 20 b&w drawings thought to have been created in Manzanar.  You can read about that controversy here:

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/04/11/ebay-removes-listing-art-created-california-japanese-concentration-camp/

Key quotes in that articles that cause me some concern:

Quote

 

* Noguchi, the COO for the Japanese American National Museum, says the group would like to see all items associated with Japanese American concentration camps be banned for sale on eBay. (eBay did not respond to a question from CNN about whether it was considering such a ban.)  “It is offensive to see and to have this reminder that people are profiting off of this history,” he said. “For many Japanese Americans that either were affected by those policies or had parents or grandparents affected by them, it’s just a really negative reminder of it.”

* That eBay removed the drawings from auction is a significant first step, Inoue said.  But numerous other artifacts from the period of Japanese American incarceration continue to be sold on the platform.  The Japanese American Confinement Sites Consortium, a collective dedicated to preserving the historical experiences of Japanese Americans during World War II, says they’re continuing to work with eBay on applying its artifacts policy to similar items.  Inoue said that his organization and other members of the consortium also planned to discuss with eBay the potential creation of algorithms that would be able to flag violations of the company’s policies on the front end.

* Nancy Ukai, project director for the digital history website 50objects.org, was one of the leading voices behind the effort to stop that sale. 2Her grandfather and mother, along with several other relatives, were incarcerated in the camps during the 1940’s. She recalled a story about how her grandfather, afraid that he’d never experience the smell of eucalyptus leaves again, brought the plant with him to the camp. “Artifacts have a really important meaning to not only me but to our community,” Ukai said. “There’s a greater understanding in the world now that things have histories, and that these histories have been erased or concealed or allowed to stand uncontested.”

 

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by sfcityduck

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

3 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

Just an FYI that sellers of Okajima pedigree comics on eBay might be facing the risk of their auctions being halted on eBay.  

In the interests of full disclosure, I have bought both paintings created in internment camps on eBay and a comic (not Okajima) which includes the owner's internment address in the book.  I do not believe that, in all instances or even most instances, the trade in art or comics which come out of the internment camp context is improper or that auctions of those pieces should be halted.  To the contrary, I think that collectors are responsible for the preservation of many internment camp related items, and that the Okajima comics most likely fall into that category.  And, frankly, it is my understanding that both dealers in art and also activists concerned with the trade in internment camp art also have had a nuanced view on these issues.  I personally think that there is a significant difference between a comic book bought in an internment camp and art made by an internee. 

Activists may disagree, especially as Okajima pedigree comics are selling for many multiples over other comparable issues solely because of their internment association.  So the recent banning by eBay of an auction and the on-going discussions between eBay and activists are something that sellers of Okajima comics better keep an eye on.

eBay's decision to halt an auction last week may be a harbinger for concern about selling Okajima comics on eBay (and possibly other venues).  Here's why:  There has been a controversy about the trade in Japanese internment camp art.  The controversy started over a Liveauctioneers auction by Rago auction house in 2015 of approximately 450 (my best recollection) pieces of art made by internees.  The internees had given the art to historian Allen Eaton while he was writing his 1952 book "Beauty Behind Barbed Wire: The Arts of the Japanese in Our War Relocation Camps," the first book on internment art.  I have heard that Eaton told at least some internees that the art would be put in a museum.  Instead, Eaton died and his daughter sold the collection to a collector, John Ryan of Conn., who held the collection for a number of years before putting the collection up on Rago.  

When the auction went public, families of internees who had contributed art to Eaton were outraged that art they were told would end up in a museum was being sold in the collectors market and was about to be broken up.  Activists (rightly in my opinion) became involved, and the auction was halted by Liveauctioneers.  Ultimately, there was a happy ending as the art ended up at the Japanese American National Museum.  The acquisition of the collection was announced at a dinner honoring George Takei (Sulu and often a comic convention guest over the years) who had himself been interned during WWII.  He commented at the time: “We’re very happy that rather than disappearing in some private collection we can share this with the audience and learn from the artifacts and artwork and get a better understanding of that grievous chapter in American history. It’s not just a Japanese America story. It’s a story about American democracy."

One of the prominent activists to play a role in stopping that auction was Nancy Ukai who now helms up two projects - a facebook page "Japanese American History: Not For Sale" and, relevant to comic collectors, the 50objects.org project.  As has been discussed on this site, 50objects.org was looking at the Okajima comics as one of the "50 objects" for their project.  Jpepx78 has written on comic books and the internment and I recommend this thread:  

https://www.cgccomics.com/boards/profile/8190-jpepx78/

 

Fast forward to today.  eBay has, for the first time, bowed to pressure brought by Nancy Ukai and others to halt the sale of art created during the internment on its site.  The art in question was 20 b&w drawings thought to have been created in Manzanar.  You can read about that controversy here:

https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2021/04/11/ebay-removes-listing-art-created-california-japanese-concentration-camp/

Key quotes in that articles that cause me some concern:

 

Very interesting but to me it seems there are significant differences between original internee created art donated for use in a museum that is put up for sale and mass produced items collected and then later sold (presumably freely) by an internee or their relative. As Superman would say, "<sigh> or <choke>"; why do I think this is going to turn into a long drawn out issue!!

One good thing is that this will certainly bring more exposure to this part of the American story. I had never even heard about this history until I moved to California in the eighties and started to come across people who had families in the camps. Thanks for posting.

[Cobbledclam]

I don’t consider Okajima comics to be artifacts of a specific race or culture. They are not anything created while in the camps. 

They were possessions just like a plate, shirt, lamp, books etc. they were not items reflecting any cultural part of specifically Japanese history or  heritage. 

Were they implemented as a form of propaganda against a country we were at war with? Yes I believe so. Comics as well with many other items that were possessions.

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Cobbledclam said:

I don’t consider Okajima comics to be artifacts of a specific race or culture. They are not anything created while in the camps. 

They were possessions just like a plate, shirt, lamp, books etc. they were not items reflecting any cultural part of specifically Japanese history or  heritage. 

Were they implemented as a form of propaganda against a country we were at war with? Yes I believe so. Comics as well with many other items that were possessions.

Here's the question that should bother dealers:  If everything you say is correct, and the internment angle doesn't matter, then why are collectors paying huge multiples of value to get an Okajima camp copy, especially on a WWII cover? 

We all know that the enhanced value of Okajima's is largely due to the internment camp angle.  Okajima's are a really cool, ironic, and I'd argue iconic example of the Japanese-American experience during WWII.

Having said that, I agree that they are different in kind than art made in a camp which is only in the market because the art was removed from the artist by fraud, theft, or government seizure, and instead was sold by the family.  Some activists don't agree, and this is such a small portion of eBay's business it will be easy for eBay (and Liveauctioneers which includes items on Hakes and Heritage) to choose the activists' view.  

I do agree with the activists that there are examples where internment related items really should not be allowed to be sold at auction.  

Edited April 12, 2021 by sfcityduck

[Cobbledclam]

I never said the internment aspect never mattered. 

[Cobbledclam]

And the comment I posted are from a 65 year old person of Japanese descent who was born and raised in San Francisco and whoms  parents and many relatives were interred.

It was a statement of ones opinion,and facts not withstanding they were possessions of a person who was interred in one of the camps and not a link to their culture or heritage. The names and markings were just an identifier to note person to which said items were addressed and distributed to.

[sfcityduck]

20 minutes ago, Cobbledclam said:

I never said the internment aspect never mattered. 

Fair enough, that was my interpretation.

[sfcityduck]

11 minutes ago, Cobbledclam said:

And the comment I posted are from a 65 year old person of Japanese descent who was born and raised in San Francisco and whoms  parents and many relatives were interred.

It was a statement of ones opinion,and facts not withstanding they were possessions of a person who was interred in one of the camps and not a link to their culture or heritage. The names and markings were just an identifier to note person to which said items were addressed and distributed to.

As I said, I agree with you that Okajima comics are different in kind from art made in internment camps, so our opinions are the same on that. 

Some activists, based on their statements, would disagree with us on that.  For example, 50objects has focused on such items as a gold pocket watch, and they were looking at including Okajima comics, in their series of articles on objects which reflect the internment experience.  And there can be no real question that Okajima comics are being marketed and are selling at a premium based on their internment connection.  So I think that there is a real risk that Okajima sellers should be aware of.

Again, as I said, I have purchased art made in and of Topaz internment camp.  It is my understanding that art was sold by the artists' family into the market.  I am not losing any sleep over having bought it.  That art, along with many other pieces by the artist I collect (Chiura Obata), have been preserved and now enjoy greater recognition because of collectors.    

[10centcomics]

I saw the news on CNN this morning and was about to start a thread on the boards, but glad some discussion has already taken place. I've bought an Okajima book before and this certainly made me think more about the ethics behind it. The book has a cover date of Nov 1943 so I certainly consider it an "artifact" from the internment camp since it was sold, read, and stored there. As an Asian-American I've always had a fascination with the shameful history surrounding Japanese internment camps, and that's exactly why I was drawn to this particular pedigree. 

To me the central issue seems to be one of provenance. If there are artifacts that were looted or stolen from the families at the camps, then 100% I believe those items should be returned to their rightful owners. I'm not sure if I agree with a blanket ban on selling these items, if the items were voluntarily relinquished by their original owners. I agree with sfcityduck that collectors can play an important role in preservation (if obsessed comic book collectors weren't involved, would these books be lost to time?) I realize this topic is nuanced and would love to hear other opinions on it!

[onlyweaknesskryptonite]

For some reason it transferred my response in another thread to this one. My error.

 

Edited April 12, 2021 by onlyweaknesskryptonite
Wrong threads response.

[khoo75]

I agree that the internment angle contributes to the premium for Okajima books in that time period.  But even without the internment angle, do Okajima copies sell for a premium? 

The one copy I own from 1949 is exceptionally fresh, the whites on the book are brighter than any other golden age book I own (including a few Mile Highs).  Are other Okajima copies also exceptionally fresh?

 

[Randall Dowling]

I read this story this morning as well.  Very sticky situation.  Whenever I'm looking at moral problems, I tend to use analogies to help get perspective.  In this case, the one that came to mind was "What if there was a pedigree of comics from a German concentration camp?  Would it be okay to collect those?".  Which is an extreme example but unfortunately, that doesn't help much.  Because I don't have an answer to that either.

I've never owned an Okajima book but not because of any personal objection to it's history, just never had one come up that was in my interests.  And frankly, I still don't know where this recent story leaves me.  I understand both ends of the argument.  I guess I would default to respecting an agreed upon consensus position of survivors and descendants of survivors.  But I'm not sure that exists yet.

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

I know I would buy an Okajima if the right one came along. Part of the value is the story that goes with it and the education. I guess I would ask what the expectation for these items are if they are not sold to collectors who will likely cherish them for the pedigree and history. Are they to sit gathering dust in a museum warehouse not to be touched. I think these kind of artifacts bring history alive and can become wonderful teaching tools. To hold history in your hands and reflect on its meaning is very valuable.

A high school acquaintance of mine actually collected Nazi German officer's caps. He let me view his collection one day; inappropriate as it may seem to some it really brought to life the fact that the war was real and was filled with the lives of people like any of us. That was a long time ago and I suspect a student collecting items like that today would be shamed and expelled from school!

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

Speaking of holding history in your hands; the image below is of a 15th century African carved ivory hunting horn. I was looking at pieces of the collection where this was housed and was allowed to pick up and hold this incredibly beautiful piece. Boy did I got nervous when I was told the origin story of this piece while in my hands. It had been a gift to King Ferdinand of Spain. Yes, King Ferdinand of Queen Isabella fame. Boy I wanted that piece returned to its case faster than you can imagine! Today it is safely housed at the Smithsonian. But I have never forgotten the experience!!

 

[pemart1966]

9 hours ago, 50YrsCollctngCmcs said:

Speaking of holding history in your hands; the image below is of a 15th century African carved ivory hunting horn. I was looking at pieces of the collection where this was housed and was allowed to pick up and hold this incredibly beautiful piece. Boy did I got nervous when I was told the origin story of this piece while in my hands. It had been a gift to King Ferdinand of Spain. Yes, King Ferdinand of Queen Isabella fame. Boy I wanted that piece returned to its case faster than you can imagine! Today it is safely housed at the Smithsonian. But I have never forgotten the experience!!

 

A beautiful piece carved in a less than ideal medium.  It reminded me immediately of an extremely elaborate scene carved out of either ivory or bone - was it in the lobby of the UN?  Someone please refresh my aging memory!

[Robot Man]

12 hours ago, 50YrsCollctngCmcs said:

Speaking of holding history in your hands; the image below is of a 15th century African carved ivory hunting horn. I was looking at pieces of the collection where this was housed and was allowed to pick up and hold this incredibly beautiful piece. Boy did I got nervous when I was told the origin story of this piece while in my hands. It had been a gift to King Ferdinand of Spain. Yes, King Ferdinand of Queen Isabella fame. Boy I wanted that piece returned to its case faster than you can imagine! Today it is safely housed at the Smithsonian. But I have never forgotten the experience!!

 

Wow, great experience and what a beautiful piece!

I was lucky enough to hold and play Eric Clapton’s Blackie Stratocaster for a few minutes. Like a trip to the pearly gates for a fellow blues player. 

[Straw-Man]

this moral angle has me feeling all woke and wanting to divest of my camp okajima now.   at 10X guide.

Edited April 13, 2021 by Straw-Man

[D84]

53 minutes ago, Robot Man said:

Wow, great experience and what a beautiful piece!

I was lucky enough to hold and play Eric Clapton’s Blackie Stratocaster for a few minutes. Like a trip to the pearly gates for a fellow blues player. 

Wow, just wow. I'll admit, I'm more a Gibson man, but blackie...

[sfcityduck]

1 hour ago, Straw-Man said:

this moral angle has me feeling all woke and wanting to divest of my camp okajima now.   at 10X guide.

The books are so hot that for the right WWII cover (especially the internment camp cover) I think you can get that.  [Edited to add: over on the Okajima thread, a poster says the going premium is 10x to 20x guide or beyond for WWII era books with the name and "camp codes" on the cover.  So sounds like you are offering a discount.]

All joking (or is that woking?) aside, you don't have to be very aware to recognize the monumental injustice of incarcerating loyal Americans in concentration camps for the duration of WWII (and a little beyond).  Those folks lost their property when they were thrown into the camps, and families were separated.  It was such an obvious injustice that President Ronald Reagan was "woke" enough to authorize a payment to each surviving internee of $20K in reparations (about $40K today).  At the time, there were at least 60,000 of them (I've read numbers as high as 100,000 camp survivors got paid reparations).  President Reagan also issued a formal apology which included these remarks:

Quote

 

More than 40 years ago, shortly after the bombing of Pearl Harbor, 120,000 persons of Japanese ancestry living in the United States were forcibly removed from their homes and placed in makeshift internment camps. This action was taken without trial, without jury. It was based solely on race, for these 120,000 were Americans of Japanese descent.

Yes, the Nation was then at war, struggling for its survival, and it's not for us today to pass judgment upon those who may have made mistakes while engaged in that great struggle. Yet we must recognize that the internment of Japanese-Americans was just that: a mistake. For throughout the war, Japanese-Americans in the tens of thousands remained utterly loyal to the United States. Indeed, scores of Japanese-Americans volunteered for our Armed Forces, many stepping forward in the internment camps themselves. The 442d Regimental Combat Team, made up entirely of Japanese-Americans, served with immense distinction to defend this nation, their nation. Yet back at home, the soldiers' families were being denied the very freedom for which so many of the soldiers themselves were laying down their lives.

...

The legislation that I am about to sign provides for a restitution payment to each of the 60,000 surviving Japanese-Americans of the 120,000 who were relocated or detained. Yet no payment can make up for those lost years. So, what is most important in this bill has less to do with property than with honor. For here we admit a wrong; here we reaffirm our commitment as a nation to equal justice under the law.

And now in closing, I wonder whether you'd permit me one personal reminiscence, one prompted by an old newspaper report sent to me by Rose Ochi, a former internee. The clipping comes from the Pacific Citizen and is dated December 1945.

``Arriving by plane from Washington,'' the article begins, ``General Joseph W. Stilwell pinned the Distinguished Service Cross on Mary Masuda in a simple ceremony on the porch of her small frame shack near Talbert, Orange County. She was one of the first Americans of Japanese ancestry to return from relocation centers to California's farmlands.'' ``Vinegar Joe'' Stilwell was there that day to honor Kazuo Masuda, Mary's brother. You see, while Mary and her parents were in an internment camp, Kazuo served as staff sergeant to the 442d Regimental Combat Team. In one action, Kazuo ordered his men back and advanced through heavy fire, hauling a mortar. For 12 hours, he engaged in a singlehanded barrage of Nazi positions. Several weeks later at Cassino, Kazuo staged another lone advance. This time it cost him his life.

The newspaper clipping notes that her two surviving brothers were with Mary and her parents on the little porch that morning. These two brothers, like the heroic Kazuo, had served in the United States Army. After General Stilwell made the award, the motion picture actress Louise Allbritton, a Texas girl, told how a Texas battalion had been saved by the 442d. Other show business personalities paid tribute -- Robert Young, Will Rogers, Jr. -- and one young actor said: ``Blood that has soaked into the sands of a beach is all of one color. America stands unique in the world: the only country not founded on race but on a way, an ideal. Not in spite of but because of our polyglot background, we have had all the strength in the world. That is the American way.'' The name of that young actor -- I hope I pronounce this right -- was Ronald Reagan. And, yes, the ideal of liberty and justice for all -- that is still the American way.

 

Asian-Americans are experiencing a strange resurgence in bigotry towards them, so I can understand why the activists are taking strong stands.  I would not support banning eBay sales of comics that came through internment camps if they came into the marketplace on the up and up, but I understand where the activists are coming from based on what Japanese-Americans were subjected to during WWII.

Edited April 13, 2021 by sfcityduck

[50YrsCollctngCmcs]

23 minutes ago, sfcityduck said:

The books are so hot that for the right WWII cover (especially the internment camp cover) I think you can get that.

All joking (or is that woking?) aside, you don't have to be very aware to recognize the monumental injustice of incarcerating loyal Americans in concentration camps for the duration of WWII (and a little beyond).  Those folks lost their property when they were thrown into the camps, and families were separated.  It was such an obvious injustice that President Ronald Reagan was "woke" enough to authorize a payment to each surviving internee of $20K in reparations (about $40K today).  At the time, there were at least 60,000 of them (I've read numbers as high as 100,000 camp survivors).  President Reagan also issued a formal apology which included these remarks:

Asian-Americans are experiencing a strange resurgence in bigotry towards them, so I can understand why the activists are taking strong stands.  I would not support banning eBay sales of comics that came through internment camps if they came into the marketplace on the up and up, but I understand where the activists are coming based on what Japanese-Americans were subjected to during WWII.

I was in school with a woman of Japanese descent. I was visiting one day and she pulled out a family album from her parent's and grandparent's time in the camps. This would have been in the late 1980's. Absolutely fascinating and the beginnings of understanding some of the history behind all of this. Visits to LA's Little Tokyo also bring some of this history to life. It's also worth noting having grown up with grandparents who saw so many young people lose their lives in WWII they held an understandable animosity towards the war's aggressors. This is likely a tough issue for members of that generation to get their heads around.

Edited April 13, 2021 by 50YrsCollctngCmcs