Which would you rather: Green Lantern #76 or Batman#251? 1 1

[Readcomix]

Just now, Randall Ries said:

Adams muffed #244 as well. He should have painted a loincloth over Batman's naughty area. Instead, he colored his legs grey and gave him the codpiece thing.

Bat longJohns under the Bat-pants? 

That one is more noticeable than 251 to me, but then again I’m in no way a visual artist.

[Randall Ries]

2 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

I agree 76 is the better cover of the two; on the flip side, it had taken a while for the significance of 251 to be widely understood, but it may be the most important Joker key since Batman #1. This marks the return of the crazed killer; it’s as important to the Joker as Miller’s Dark Knight Returns is to Batman himself. 

76 is part one of a historic and groundbreaking story (in fairness, it doesn’t hold up so well when read today) run’s significance cannot be taken away. It’s a #1 of sorts in that it is part one of the storyline, but it’s not necessarily any more important to the the whole of the storyline than say the Speedy drug issues. 

The Speedy Drug issues should be a LOT more valuable than they are. AWESOME story line that is still relevant and not at all dated. I couldn't WAIT to get 86 in the mail. What's Oliver's reaction going to be???? HAHA! BACKHAND! Then he gets blamed for Speedy's problem.

[Kripsys99]

1 minute ago, Randall Ries said:

Adams muffed #244 as well. He should have painted a loincloth over Batman's naughty area. Instead, he colored his legs grey and gave him the codpiece thing.

I think I read once that had to with him not being allowed to have Batman in his skivvies on the cover. He knew it didn't make sense, but did it anyway.

[Readcomix]

Just now, Randall Ries said:

The Speedy Drug issues should be a LOT more valuable than they are. AWESOME story line that is still relevant and not at all dated. I couldn't WAIT to get 86 in the mail. What's Oliver's reaction going to be???? HAHA! BACKHAND! Then he gets blamed for Speedy's problem.

I agree on the drug issues, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on the writing itself. I found it tinny and dated on last read. But I can dig it out again; maybe it was me that night or something....

[Randall Ries]

1 minute ago, Kripsys99 said:

I think I read once that had to with him not being allowed to have Batman in his skivvies on the cover. He knew it didn't make sense, but did it anyway.

I thought it was because he had initially drawn Bruce nude hence Ra's holding his entire costume. Shwartz said "Nope. NOPE! Fix it." and Adams just drew in the Hanes over the grey leggings. Should have went with a loincloth. Would have been more realistic than either nakedness or a spare set of shorts Bruce happened to have on. In the desert. After a 7 hour duel. In the sun.

[Randall Ries]

2 minutes ago, Readcomix said:

I agree on the drug issues, but we’ll have to agree to disagree on the writing itself. I found it tinny and dated on last read. But I can dig it out again; maybe it was me that night or something....

I think you are right. All the issues were "preachy". They had to explain the entire plot to us stupid kids in the 1970's whereas now, all the kids know people who die from opiate abuse. So, they don't have to have it spelled out for them.

[Kripsys99]

1 minute ago, Randall Ries said:

Would have been more realistic than either nakedness or a spare set of shorts Bruce happened to have on. In the desert. After a 7 hour duel. In the sun.

They were ultra absorbant, low friction Bat-shorts. The Dark Knight knows that when spending 7 hours in the desert fighting a deadly foe, one needs to be prepared for both chaffing and urinary incontinence!

[Randall Ries]

6 minutes ago, Kripsys99 said:

They were ultra absorbant, low friction Bat-shorts. The Dark Knight knows that when spending 7 hours in the desert fighting a deadly foe, one needs to be prepared for both chaffing and urinary incontinence!

Practical. And yet stylish! No panty lines, either. NOTHING says Hanes until Bruce SAYS they say Hanes.

[rjpb]

GL #76 isn't really a key in the traditional sense, it just represented a new direction for the title with a new creative team, but even at the time it was recognized as bringing a new cultural "relevance" to DC comics in particular, and thus its key status. It took longer for Batman #251 to be recognized as anything all that special, as it represented a return of the O'Neil/Adams team and not a new beginning, but as has been mentioned, it was also the return of the homicidal Joker for the first time in 30 years, and the iconic cover is a worthy successor to the great Joker GA covers.  Maybe GL #76 has the history that would indicate greater long term potential, but if you look at the prices on the classic Joker covers of the 1940s, I wouldn't bet on it. I'd take the Batman #251 if given the choice, but I prefer Batman to GL, and like Joker covers, whereas the last time I read the O'Neil/Adams run of GL/GA (about 25 years ago), it all was more than a bit corny with the passage of time.

[JTLarsen]

I’d say GL 76 is a VERY traditional key. The hobby used to be much more focused on the craft and the substance. GL 76 was a milestone in those senses PLUS in the industry’s history PLUS the first GLGA team up PLUS the first O’Neil/Adams GLGA PLUS as an award-winner PLUS as a creative influence PLUS various story elements that are still with us today.

That said, all of those things are (sadly) fading in importance as character-chasing fans flood in. Art, craft, history are less dominant and so I suspect GL 76 will actually gradually lose ground against other key books (most proximately GL 87).

Doesn’t mean we old-timers have to forget how important it is!

[Kripsys99]

30 minutes ago, rjpb said:

Maybe GL #76 has the history that would indicate greater long term potential, but if you look at the prices on the classic Joker covers of the 1940s, I wouldn't bet on it.

This is a fair point with regards to potential long-term value. And in keeping with what JTLarsen mentioned above, I do worry about how well GL #76 will age.

[WolverineX]

Green lantern 76. Hands down

[JTLarsen]

4 minutes ago, Kripsys99 said:

This is a fair point with regards to potential long-term value. And in keeping with what JTLarsen mentioned above, I do worry about how well GL #76 will age.

Yeah, I think the top-grade copies may no longer hit the highs of yore but I don’t see the rest of the range actually going down. 
 

I suspect it’ll hold steady with some slight steady growth and not enjoy the insane leaps we’re seeing elsewhere.

That said, I suspect it’ll also have its moments in the spotlight now and again. Our field hasn’t yet fully reckoned with the importance of Neal Adams, I think.

[Comics4All]

Batman 251 !

[Kripsys99]

6 minutes ago, JTLarsen said:

Our field hasn’t yet fully reckoned with the importance of Neal Adams, I think.

Agreed. As with many great artists, I think that unfortunately he will only truly be appreciated after he leaves us.

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, Readcomix said:

I agree 76 is the better cover of the two; on the flip side, it had taken a while for the significance of 251 to be widely understood, but it may be the most important Joker key since Batman #1. This marks the return of the crazed killer; it’s as important to the Joker as Miller’s Dark Knight Returns is to Batman himself.

This is well said. This was one of the reasons I bought the thing in 1973 and again in 2012. I assumed everyone else understood its significance as well. I was harping on it a couple years ago when someone wondered why the sudden attention? I quipped pretty much the same as you have. It's a monumental issue. Although the ending is a bit lame, "Slipping on a spot of oil then getting KO'ed?. MK.) it marked the return of scary Joker and ended buffoon Joker. 

Later in the thread, someone opined "It shoulda been a Joker playing card Bats was taped to" to which I replied "The card choice was perfect. The Ace Of Spades in the 1970's was a reference to death because of the Vietnam conflict among other references to the Ace Of Spades in American culture." He strongly disagreed with my assessment. But to me and many others, it was a hint that Joker was going to be killing again. But - as usual - I was wrong and everyone else was right. I should have said "Maybe it should have been a naked lady card." To which everyone else coulda said "AAAHHH! The Jokers gonna get him some yum-yum!" LOL!

This book was one of the rare times I have bought a book like that and it exploded in value in the ensuing years. Usually goes the other way with me. Which is why I'm not buying an IH 181. Don't want to ruin it for everyone else.

[Randall Ries]

1 hour ago, rjpb said:

GL #76 isn't really a key in the traditional sense, it just represented a new direction for the title with a new creative team, but even at the time it was recognized as bringing a new cultural "relevance" to DC comics in particular, and thus its key status. It took longer for Batman #251 to be recognized as anything all that special, as it represented a return of the O'Neil/Adams team and not a new beginning, but as has been mentioned, it was also the return of the homicidal Joker for the first time in 30 years, and the iconic cover is a worthy successor to the great Joker GA covers.  Maybe GL #76 has the history that would indicate greater long term potential, but if you look at the prices on the classic Joker covers of the 1940s, I wouldn't bet on it. I'd take the Batman #251 if given the choice, but I prefer Batman to GL, and like Joker covers, whereas the last time I read the O'Neil/Adams run of GL/GA (about 25 years ago), it all was more than a bit corny with the passage of time.

Well, as a kid, they were serious business when I was reading them. As an adult, all I am really doing is collecting covers. There are still a few books I can read. Bat 237 isn't corny. It's heartbreaking. Plus the story is set in Rutland VT, 20 miles from where I am right now. On the same route, in fact.

Brave and the Bold 109 is where I learned about Krakatoa. There was something about the combo of Bob Haney and Jim Aparo's art at that time which was magical. I didn't like Aparo's later style but his B& B stuff in the 1970's was very good, I thought.

Frankly, it was "Batman: The Dark Knight Returns" that spoiled me for just about anything before that. Certainly the 1970's stuff. There were a few good runs that tried to get back to the "dark" Batman like the Rogers stuff, but it always sank back into unbelievable, mediocre stories. But everything NOW is at least loosely based on DKR. "Crisis On Infinite Earths" and DKR came out at about the same time. So, we saw Batman's/Superman's friendship END after Crisis. Which dovetailed nicely with DKR. That's pretty neat to think about. Frank Miller basically created Batman v4.0.

One of my favorite pieces of dialogue in "Crisis" was when Supes/Bats were on the phone with each other and Superman commented: "There was fear in Batman's voice. Something I have definitely not heard before."

[Kripsys99]

@Randall Ries @Comics4All @JTLarsen @Wolverinex @rjpb @Readcomix @Terry_JSA @shadroch@Jeffro.

And the verdict is...

Spoiler

I kept my copy of GL #76, and bought myself #251 in the end.

After considering all of your advice, I decided I had to make "both" an option - as both are great books for different reasons.

Looks like I'll be selling some more of my hockey cards, and weighing which of my kids goes to college!

Thanks to everyone for the advice - much appreciated and very informative! That said, next time I'll probably flip a coin so I don't end up talking myself into two comics!

 

[WolverineX]

4 minutes ago, Kripsys99 said:

@Randall Ries @Comics4All @JTLarsen @Wolverinex @rjpb @Readcomix @Terry_JSA @shadroch@Jeffro.

And the verdict is...

  Hide contents

I kept my copy of GL #76, and bought myself #251 in the end.

After considering all of your advice, I decided I had to make "both" an option - as both are great books for different reasons.

Looks like I'll be selling some more of my hockey cards, and weighing which of my kids goes to college!

Thanks to everyone for the advice - much appreciated and very informative! That said, next time I'll probably flip a coin so I don't end up talking myself into two comics!

 

LOL.  you made the right choice.  Plus in the future if you need the money you can always sell the one you like less.

[Readcomix]

1 minute ago, Wolverinex said:

LOL.  you made the right choice.  Plus in the future if you need the money you can always sell the one you like less.

The book, or the kid???