They're Still Out There! 22 22

[ChillMan]

23 hours ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

And to think just yesterday I committed to a Cap 46 7.5. I predict $150k on this 9.2

Would CGC note:  Human Torch story in 9.2 really command more than CGC note: 1st appearance of Aquaman 1st appearance of Green Arrow in 8.0 (with only 2 higher)....if these auctions were legit?

[adamstrange]

52 minutes ago, Funnybooks said:

Question:

I was always on the fence when it came to FC and whether they held the same weight as OO...thoughts?

It depends on what you mean by "weight".  Original owner comics often come with an interesting back story.  Harvey and Dell files contained tons of uber high grade comics.

[Funnybooks]

3 minutes ago, adamstrange said:

It depends on what you mean by "weight".  Original owner comics often come with an interesting back story.  Harvey and Dell files contained tons of uber high grade comics.

I suppose by weight I mean gravitas in the collecting community...an OO collection seems to be more impressive from a collector standpoint...FC's, although uber high grade, were "just" copies that were filed away without the "handling" factor that makes OO collections that much more impressive when you consider shipping to and eventual handling at the newsstand, followed by further handling from the collector, etc.

[ChillMan]

21 hours ago, sfcityduck said:

I would be surprised if they put all 5,000 books up in one auction.  That would not be how I would do it if I were the seller.  

Exactly.  Sellers bring in stacks of 5000 books....the auction house auctions the top 100....and they buy the remaining 4900 and store them in their warehouse for 10 years.  They clean, press, post some as hammering for crazy high prices....and auction some for real.

[Bronty]

11 minutes ago, Funnybooks said:

I suppose by weight I mean gravitas in the collecting community...an OO collection seems to be more impressive from a collector standpoint...FC's, although uber high grade, were "just" copies that were filed away without the "handling" factor that makes OO collections that much more impressive when you consider shipping to and eventual handling at the newsstand, followed by further handling from the collector, etc.

The main problem with the Dell and Harvey books is they were Dell and Harvey books.

The Gaines file copies were just the same - but those are ECs so nobody comes up with a reason not to like them.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Bronty

[lou_fine]

22 hours ago, Bronty said:

22 hours ago, lou_fine said:

I guess when you have such a massive quality collection like this, you get to set not only your own turnaround times, but also get to have their undisclosed grading standards personalized to take into account some of the visual pecularities that appears to be inherent with most of the books that we have seen so far from this collection.  

Realistically big HA orders are probably going to get a bit of preferential treatment.   Say 5000 x 100 = 500,000 in fees?   Are you going to work on that 500k order from a closely connected company, or work on Joe Schmucklack’s 9.4 Avengers 398? 

 

21 hours ago, adamstrange said:

This is a brand new pedigree, a large amount of business from one of their biggest customers and a huge event for the hobby,

This is going to get special treatment and I won't complain. 

Although I have absolutely zero problems with this collection getting special treatment in terms of being fast tracked through both the pressing and grading process plus most likely not having to pay for it like everybody else here, the issue that I do have serious problems with is with CGC seemingly adjusting their undisclosed grading standards just for this collection to take into account some of the obvious "non-defects" around the spine, edges, and staple areas that seems to be on some of the books we have seen here so far.    

Any bets that if I had turned in a book like this one here with this very obvious and flagrant defect , I would probably be looking at somewhere in the CGC 6's if I was lucky:    

 

 

If I am bidding on these books in the upcoming Heritage Auction, I would definitely take some of these grades with a grain of salt, and as always, I guess we should always take a look at the underlying book in the holder itself.  Although all of these books from this collection are most definitely very beautiful, just not so sure about the "beautiful" grades on some of them.  Looks like the old mantra of buy the book, as opposed to buy the label is even more applicable for books coming out from this collection here.    

Edited April 30, 2021 by lou_fine

[Bronty]

3 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

 

Although I have absolutely zero problems with this collection gettinspecial treatment in terms of being fast tracked through both the pressing and grading process plus most likely not having to pay for it like everybody else here, the issue that I do have serious problems with is with CGC seemingly adjusting their undisclosed grading standards just for this collection to take into account some of the obvious "non-defects" around the spine, edges, and staple areas that seems to be on some of the books we have seen here so far.    

Any bets that if I had turned in a book like this one here with this very obvious and flagrant defect , I would probably be looking at somewhere in the CGC 6's if I was lucky:    

 

 

 

If I am bidding on these books in the upcoming Heritage Auction, I would definitely take some of these grades with a grain of salt, and as always, I guess we should always take a look at the underlying book in the holder itself.  Although all of these books from this collection are most definitely very beautiful, just not so sure about the "beautiful" grades on some of them.  Looks like the old mantra of buy the book, as opposed to buy the label is even more applicable for books coming out from this collection here.    

don't bid on this book.   Simple.

I get you are concerned that other books may be overgraded, but there's big big scans, so look for books where no such obvious judgement calls were made and leave this copy for a label chaser.

 

Edited April 30, 2021 by Bronty

[lou_fine]

4 minutes ago, Bronty said:

don't bid on this book.   Simple.

I get you are concerned that other books may be overgraded, but there's big big scans, so look for books where no such obvious judgement calls were made and leave this copy for a label chaser.

 

Yes, like I said.....................buy the book, not the label.  

Then again, wouldn't it be better if CGC simply apllied their undisclosed grading standards on a much more consistent basis, as opposed to having soft grading or giving benefit of the doubt (Whether intentionally or sub-conciously) because it's a preferred customer while having tough tight grading on their regular customers. 

Bit surprised that you seem to be okay with this as you say that we should bid according to the book and simply ignore the grade.  especially since I thought that what we were paying CGC for in the first place in terms of 3rd party independent and hopefully consistent grading.    

[szav]

13 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

CGC seemingly adjusting their undisclosed grading standards just for this collection

You may have missed the recent announcement that pressing related damage is now considered a ‘manufacturing’ defect.

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, Funnybooks said:

1 hour ago, adamstrange said:

Large GA Pedigrees:

Church, Crippen, Crowley, Dell FC, Harvey FC

I think it's Top 10 but probably not Top 5.

Question:

I was always on the fence when it came to FC and whether they held the same weight as OO...thoughts?

Definitely not in the eyes of CGC as although they might note tham as File Copy, they certainly don't come with the special pedigree labels.  

From a grading point of view, they also don't seem to give them the same benefit of the doubt, as clearly evident from this Dell File Copy here:  

This Dell File Copy here would definitely seem to present a lot nicer than that Subby 11 from the Promise Collection which ended up with a higher grade than this nicely presenting book here relative to its grade.    

 

57 minutes ago, namisgr said:

The Gaines file copies certainly.  In my experience with Silver Age, not so much for the Random House archives/Dell file copies.

Althugh I would agree with you in terms of the Random House and Harvey File copies from the Silver Age because these were really just part of a large warehouse find, I would definitely disagree with you in terms of the Dell File Copies from the late 30's and early 40's because these File Copies here were more unique/individual and clearly were not stored in a warehouse and from their minty fresh condition, most likely in an office storage environment.  

 

[ChillMan]

We love what we own.  The Communist Party is probably working to get us to like Marvel SA and more recent.  I think the best ever offered copy of 1st Superman went to the Middle East.  Probably for much more behind the scenes.

[lou_fine]

16 minutes ago, szav said:

32 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

CGC seemingly adjusting their undisclosed grading standards just for this collection

You may have missed the recent announcement that pressing related damage is now considered a ‘manufacturing’ defect.

Sadly, this is probably more closer to the truth than just a rumour or a funny joke.  

Especially since it seems that with the current grading team in place for the past several years and the newbies working in CCS (i.e. not Nelson who knows what he's doing here), they have seemingly been overlooking tell tale signature pressing defects coming from their in-house partner company and simply giving them a blind pass in terms of grading.    

So much for Borock's line that if books are not pressed properly in terms of leaving pressing defects, they will then be downgraded accordingly.  Or is this their new updated version of grading them accordingly?  

[lou_fine]

Maybe with all of these scans that we are now seeing from Heritage with the absolutely eye popping gorgeous books from this Promise Collection here, they should also have Lon provide us with the "before" picture of these books so that we can see what they looked like before they got squashed, graded, and slabbed.  

Can't wait to see what grade this beautiful book comes out at and whether they are going to "fix up" some of the obvious spine and corner issues with this book here, or simply choose to apply the soft and gentle soothing touches of their grading feather to this book here:    

[Funnybooks]

19 minutes ago, lou_fine said:

Maybe with all of these scans that we are now seeing from Heritage with the absolutely eye popping gorgeous books from this Promise Collection here, they should also have Lon provide us with the "before" picture of these books so that we can see what they looked like before they got squashed, graded, and slabbed.  

Can't wait to see what grade this beautiful book comes out at and whether they are going to "fix up" some of the obvious spine and corner issues with this book here, or simply choose to apply the soft and gentle soothing touches of their grading feather to this book here:    

what tear on that top spine corner...that's a spiderweb...Cgc 9.0

[MasterChief]

6 hours ago, DanCooper said:

I may be a little late to the game here, but MasterChief what do you mean by the "work done"?

I know you are the Master detective here on the boards, but are grader notes now revealing "work" that CGC (or CCS?) does on a book if in a non-resto/Universal holder/grade? (this is the 9.4 copy from the "Promise Collection", right?)

Thanks

 

Dean and I happened to be discussing the collection right after a few of the teaser photos dropped in the thread. He asked my opinion as to whether or not the books had been manipulated. I mentioned that they appeared to be untouched as pressable defects were apparent here and there. I went on to say that the images looked to be pre-CGC submission, perhaps taken when the collection was examined. That thought became obvious with the reveal of the certified Catman #28. While we only have one example to go on so far for comparison purposes, many realize that the likelihood of the collection, in whole or in part, getting the treatment is a bonafide reality.

The doctoring of the Catman #28 is particularly interesting, in my opinion. The structure of that book has been altered from its original conditional state as discovered, to that of a perceived appearance post-print production book from the 40s. As mentioned, the book perked my curiosity so much so I sprung for the grader notes. There is no mention of work performed on the book in the notes. Just the typical obtuse annotations. The exception being, the "pedigree coding" (whatever that means) for the distributor mark.

[Funnybooks]

[ChillMan]

Collectors who love having a cool item pay for the grade-number on the label.

Shifty characters in It for the money go to the auction houses and find-out which comics can be upgraded after the auction.  They are there examining every single book pre-auction....thousands, taking 10 straight hours or more.  I throw out some theories....but this I promise is a fact.

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

don't bid on this book.   Simple.

I get you are concerned that other books may be overgraded, but there's big big scans, so look for books where no such obvious judgement calls were made and leave this copy for a label chaser.

 

That's fine but if certain submitters get preferential grading, ie higher grades, that would make a mockery of CGC's impartial grading standards.  It would be nice to know some things aren't for sale.

[vheflin]

This Cap 36 looks like it got some work

https://comics.ha.com/itm/golden-age-1938-1955-/superhero/a-written-description-will-be-available-soon/p/7244-175079.s?ic16=ViewItem-BrowseTabs-Auction-Preview-ThisAuction-120115

[Bronty]

22 minutes ago, thehumantorch said:

That's fine but if certain submitters get preferential grading, ie higher grades, that would make a mockery of CGC's impartial grading standards.  It would be nice to know some things aren't for sale.

True, but we don't have the book in front of us, right.   I don't think its a leap to imagine its a mirror smooth surface and glossy and beautiful.    While I think 7.0 is more on the mark, I can see how that type of book is a tough call on how to grade.