They're Still Out There! 22 22

[GreatCaesarsGhost]

1 hour ago, MasterChief said:

Dean and I happened to be discussing the collection right after a few of the teaser photos dropped in the thread. He asked my opinion as to whether or not the books had been manipulated. I mentioned that they appeared to be untouched as pressable defects were apparent here and there. I went on to say that the images looked to be pre-CGC submission, perhaps taken when the collection was examined. That thought became obvious with the reveal of the certified Catman #28. While we only have one example to go on so far for comparison purposes, many realize that the likelihood of the collection, in whole or in part, getting the treatment is a bonafide reality.

The doctoring of the Catman #28 is particularly interesting, in my opinion. The structure of that book has been altered from its original conditional state as discovered, to that of a perceived appearance post-print production book from the 40s. As mentioned, the book perked my curiosity so much so I sprung for the grader notes. There is no mention of work performed on the book in the notes. Just the typical obtuse annotations. The exception being, the "pedigree coding" (whatever that means) for the distributor mark.

Thank you @MasterChief.  This is important information.

This certainly dampens my enthusiasm

Edited April 30, 2021 by GreatCaesarsGhost

[linmoth]

Amazing that almost 20 years later some are just realizing that there is preferential treatment to grading. Before pressing became so prevalent no one had a clue except for a privileged few how to increase the grades on books! I submitted many silver age pedigree books only to see them receive higher grades. I spoke to Borock about it and he was mum! I thought when CGC was established it was based on a true unbiased rating. Oh well!

[Rip]

Two things, various distributor markings/dates etc are commonly called "coding" used to discuss the markings on Pedigree books. It's a long accepted term used where certain identifiable patterns shows up. Sometimes the markings are called codes. Years ago Pat Kochanek (SP?) had great articles discussing this more in detail.

So for example Mile High used a coding of C,D and M. C is usually on Fiction House Nedor or Dell. M is on 1950's comics. D is on DC, Timely, Fawcett, Quality, Fox and Centaur comics. The letters may represent different distributors. It looks like the promise collection commonly uses the letter "K", then uses the month over day.

Staples indenting in an out of the books aren't necessarily indictive of pressing or disassembly. Sometimes its easy to just shift the pages.

Edited April 30, 2021 by Rip

[MrBedrock]

10 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Thank you @MasterChief.  This is important information.

This certainly dampens my enthusiasm

Let's see if I can further thin out out the bidding pool.

8 hours ago, Timely said:

Assume every book in this collection will be pressed!

[innocuous]

2 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Hey you.  Where you been MrBedrock

Yes, I'm sorry but it does dampen my enthusiasm.  You can say I still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but it makes a difference to me.

 Whelp, back to the SA forum for me.

[szav]

10 minutes ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Hey you.  Where you been MrBedrock

Yes, I'm sorry but it does dampen my enthusiasm.  You can say I still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but it makes a difference to me.

Recently found in the dumpster behind CCS

[DanCooper]

49 minutes ago, linmoth said:

Amazing that almost 20 years later some are just realizing that there is preferential treatment to grading. Before pressing became so prevalent no one had a clue except for a privileged few how to increase the grades on books! I submitted many silver age pedigree books only to see them receive higher grades. I spoke to Borock about it and he was mum! I thought when CGC was established it was based on a true unbiased rating. Oh well!

Slightly OT, but linmoth, it is good to see you posting again on these boards after a long absence!

I know you were an integral part of the Western Penn and Pacific Coast pedigrees when they were brought into the market back in the day.

Welcome back! (still waiting to hear your Western Penn origin story! )

 

[lou_fine]

59 minutes ago, MrBedrock said:

1 hour ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Thank you @MasterChief.  This is important information.

This certainly dampens my enthusiasm

Let's see if I can further thin out out the bidding pool.

9 hours ago, Timely said:

Assume every book in this collection will be pressed!

Now, I fully understand why Jason Ewert's been too busy to return any of my phone calls for the past month or so, with his voicemail saying that he won't be able to return any calls until June of this year at the earliest.  

[thehumantorch]

1 hour ago, Bronty said:

True, but we don't have the book in front of us, right.   I don't think its a leap to imagine its a mirror smooth surface and glossy and beautiful.    While I think 7.0 is more on the mark, I can see how that type of book is a tough call on how to grade.

Agreed, there's no way to know.  

[linmoth]

Dan, thanks! I think that’s a topic for the Silver Age boards as it may bore the guys here. Maybe in a couple of weeks! I’m going through my collection  not many WP’s left but I’m going through the communications I had with  the person who discovered it. Was a great read. Same with the PAC Coast. Both were great guys Carl passed away to soon. I feel like I could pick up the phone today and speak with the WPA guy and even though I haven’t spoke to him in 8 yrs or so we could go on like we spoke yesterday.

[october]

1 hour ago, GreatCaesarsGhost said:

Hey you.  Where you been MrBedrock

Yes, I'm sorry but it does dampen my enthusiasm.  You can say I still believe in Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, but it makes a difference to me.

and this “before” and “after” pic makes it look like someone went inside this book to the centerfold and pushed the staple back out. I defer to the knowledge of others, but is that a coincidental benefit to a simple press?

and I’m not saying I don’t want these books. I want em all. 
 

im just saying it makes a difference to me

This is a historical book and deserves a premium. 

It's the first time in history that an indented staple was fixed, rather than caused, by CCS. 

[Sarg]

19 hours ago, Bronty said:

but its so clearly correct.   I remember reading the assertion that it was feldstein and right away it was like my brain said "OMG of course it is... how could this ever have been called a Baker cover.."

They should correct that.

PL 17 certainly looks very Feldstein-esque. But he had no recollection of drawing a PL cover. I don't think anyone actually showed him #17 and asked him point blank, however. 

"Artists unknown -- Feldstein may have been involved somehow, though he doesn't remember" is not the most satisfying artist attribution. 

[batman_fan]

If you aren't assuming every book raw or graded has been pressed, you have not been paying attention the last 10 years.  If it is a high dollar book, assume it has been pressed 2 to 10 times.

[tth2]

1 hour ago, batman_fan said:

If you aren't assuming every book raw or graded has been pressed, you have not been paying attention the last 10 years.  If it is a high dollar book, assume it has been pressed 2 to 10 times.

I believe the Jon Berk books, at the time they were auctioned off by CC, were untouched.  

So any book bought in that auction and that is still in the same slab is untouched. 

[Mmehdy]

we now know some of the books, Cap 1..wre 1941...are there any 1938/39 books?

[William-James88]

8 hours ago, MasterChief said:

Dean and I happened to be discussing the collection right after a few of the teaser photos dropped in the thread. He asked my opinion as to whether or not the books had been manipulated. I mentioned that they appeared to be untouched as pressable defects were apparent here and there. I went on to say that the images looked to be pre-CGC submission, perhaps taken when the collection was examined. That thought became obvious with the reveal of the certified Catman #28. While we only have one example to go on so far for comparison purposes, many realize that the likelihood of the collection, in whole or in part, getting the treatment is a bonafide reality.

The doctoring of the Catman #28 is particularly interesting, in my opinion. The structure of that book has been altered from its original conditional state as discovered, to that of a perceived appearance post-print production book from the 40s. As mentioned, the book perked my curiosity so much so I sprung for the grader notes. There is no mention of work performed on the book in the notes. Just the typical obtuse annotations. The exception being, the "pedigree coding" (whatever that means) for the distributor mark.

I don't really see any issue here. All they did was press the book so that it would present better, since the tear is less visible now and the book more even looking. The tear wasn't sealed, no harm done. The notes would not denote that the book was pressed, which they never do. And now the book looks closer to what it looked like originally before the staple snagged and tore the book a bit. The person selling these certainly wants them looking their best, pressing them all would be in their best interest. And if I buy any of them, it will save me the trouble of going for CPR.
 

[RareHighGrade]

1 hour ago, tth2 said:

I believe the Jon Berk books, at the time they were auctioned off by CC, were untouched.  

So any book bought in that auction and that is still in the same slab is untouched. 

This and the fact the books were tightly graded are among many reasons Berk books are so highly prized.  The overgrading and unnecessary pressing-related flaws of the Promise books will likely stigmatize them rather than increase their sales potential.

Edited May 1, 2021 by RareHighGrade

[lou_fine]

1 hour ago, tth2 said:

I believe the Jon Berk books, at the time they were auctioned off by CC, were untouched.  

So any book bought in that auction and that is still in the same slab is untouched. 

So, are you trying to imply that if we play the grading game by their rules and keep the CCG ownership happy (i.e. you scratch my back and I'll scratch yours ), a random book like say the Church copy of Mystery Men 3  could possibly have its potential maximized from a CGC 9.6 grade up to a CGC 9.8 grade?  

And if you are really good to them and they grade it according to the Promise Collection grading standards, it might even go all the way up to a grade of CGC 9.9.     

Edited May 1, 2021 by lou_fine

[Rip]

1 hour ago, William-James88 said:

technically speaking, the church books are indeed overgraded, but no one cares. Them having writing on the cover would knock points down by any grading standard. And yet, those markings are not at all considered when grading the book since they are part of the pedigree notations. And people are paying more because of the pedigree, and the writing (which would technically be detrimental) is instead a plus since it goes with the sought after pedigree. 

Adamstrange is correct. There are numerous examples of 9.6 and 9.8 copies from non-pedigrees with writing on the front. In fact I can think of an example where there is small first name written on the front cover, (one of the  "Eldon" books) yet still get a 9.8 without CGC having to assign it a pedigree. I've had CGC grade more than a few high grade GA copies over the years with writing on them. And usually they had no effect on the final grade. Feel free to check the Heritage site to see for yourself. It might take you a little bit because so many of the 9.6's and 9.8's are pedigrees, but they are certainly there.

Also, not saying I don't think there looks to be a bit of overgrading here and there, but one thing people do not see from a scan very well is the preservation quality. Often pedigrees get a small bump from the amazing preservation.

[lou_fine]

On 4/29/2021 at 7:36 PM, batman_fan said:

Not part of the Promise Collection but this one is pretty interesting.

 

 

Hey Tim;  @tth2

Since we really know that you have now seen the light and want to join the "in" crowd in terms of the crypto investors and NFT traders, why don't we cut out the middle man here and avoid paying all of those Heritage fees by having you and me work out a private deal here.  

I'll take that old Church copy of Mystery Men 3 with that nasty pungent Mile High smell   off your hands and in return I'll simply give you want you need to show up your new friends in terms of a Transformers 1 and a Shogun Warriors 1.  Oh heck, I'll make sure it's a no-brainer steal of a deal for you and also toss in a copy of Rom 1 to make it a 3 for 1 deal and one that's definitely highly in your favor.